384 million extra a week for NHS after Brexit.

[mdd2]

"The rest of the money will come from what ministers are calling a “Brexit dividend”, by diverting the £9bn the UK pays into the EU budget to NHS funding."

So where is the other money going to come from to pay for all the other subsidies that farmers, businesses and other organisations currently receive from the EU if the money is now going to go to the NHS?

The problem is that the money will come from increased taxes and cuts in Defence and perhaps Education spending-there may also be a time approaching when the State Pension will only go to those who do NOT have a substantial private pension or tax relief of private pension contributions will be restricted.The latter could bring in billions, even just reducing it to basic rate relief.Total figure for this tax year is around £41 billion
Sadly both parties keep kicking the can down the street when it comes to health and social care funding and one cannot question why person A has to fund the care of person B's reckless and feckless behaviour yet when shove comes to push the cost of person A's drug treatment for Von Schnitzel's disease is judged too much for the NHS to pay.

But as others have posted there is little in the Brexit dividend, at least in the short term

[Croydon Claret]

If they sorted out the shocking level of waste then they could get by on much less than they're getting already.

Example from just one office where Mrs. Croydon works
- new manager waltzes in and demands an £800 office chair
- paying out more than 5 times market rates for office supplies
- one manager decides she wants to move to Cheshire and commute down twice a week. NHS agree to pay her commuting costs at £250 a day.
- same manager books tickets then changes her mind about which train to get so original ticket is just wasted
- £2000 courses booked then person decides they don't want to go

Multiply that for every NHS office around the country and you see where all the money is going. Yet the doctors and nurses,who aren't paid enough, have to struggle with what money is left after the managers have squandered huge amounts.

Everybody knows it goes on but nobody does anything about it

[taio]

Was wrong - didn't realise the increase is over and above the effects of inflation. So more significant than I thought.

[South West Claret.]

Why's it meaningless?

Just read absorb (shouldn’t take to long) think it through and that should do it.

[taio]

If they sorted out the shocking level of waste then they could get by on much less than they're getting already.

Example from just one office where Mrs. Croydon works
- new manager waltzes in and demands an £800 office chair
- paying out more than 5 times market rates for office supplies
- one manager decides she wants to move to Cheshire and commute down twice a week. NHS agree to pay her commuting costs at £250 a day.
- same manager books tickets then changes her mind about which train to get so original ticket is just wasted
- £2000 courses booked then person decides they don't want to go

Multiply that for every NHS office around the country and you see where all the money is going. Yet the doctors and nurses,who aren't paid enough, have to struggle with what money is left after the managers have squandered huge amounts.

Everybody knows it goes on but nobody does anything about it

Do people really believe this ****?

[starting_11]

"manager" "manager" "manager"

What manager?

Please specify what "management" and "managers" are doing wrong.

Cos I hear the word but no one ever ellaborates.

[South West Claret.]

Do people really believe this ****?

Stick to the statement.

[taio]

Just read absorb (shouldn’t take to long) think it through and that should do it.

I have read, and whilst I can understand people questioning the motives, what is meaningless? If it's that obvious you'll be able to explain in a few words.

[taio]

"manager" "manager" "manager"

What manager?

Please specify what "management" and "managers" are doing wrong.

Cos I hear the word but no one ever ellaborates.

Easy target that's all. People use phrases like pen pushers without any understanding of the NHS and need for managers and administrators to manage a service that costs well over £100b a year

[taio]

Stick to the statement.

Explain based on your experience. Ive worked in and with the NHS for over 20 years and I've never come across anyone who is paid recurrently £250 per day to commute.

[South West Claret.]

I have read, and whilst I can understand people questioning the motives, what is meaningless? If it's that obvious you'll be able to explain in a few words.

Self explanatory.

[taio]

Self explanatory.

Then you'll be able to explain rather than just using empty words.

[South West Claret.]

Then you'll be able to explain rather than just using empty words.

Read again and try thinking this time.

[taio]

Read again and try thinking this time.

I have. Just make your point rather than making meaningless statements that you then can't justify.

[yTib]

wow.

south west taking pedantry to a new level.

[Damo]

I'm happy to pay a bit more in tax for this.
Obviously this is not a "Brexit dividend" but it does amuse me that the people who are foaming at the mouth at that term, are the same people who constantly claim everyone voted for Brexit because of a slogan on a bus.
Amazing what this referendum has done to people who you otherwise would assume to be quite rational

[Croydon Claret]

Do people really believe this ****?

Which bit don't you believe? Why would I make any of it up?

[Stockbrokerbelt]

A small % of what they have starved it of over the last 7 years, this is only a report not fact which as before I doubt very much.

[taio]

Which bit don't you believe? Why would I make any of it up?

Which Trust or CCG is paying a member of staff per day £250 per day to commute? I will ask them to release the details under the freedom of information act.

[If it be your will]

.

[Wexford_Claret]

Hilarious. There is no ‘Brexit dividend’. This is the Tories way of admitting it’s okay to borrow to fund the NHS, thus proving austerity totally pointless. The Conartists with another con.

[yTib]

the same people who constantly claim everyone voted for Brexit because of a slogan on a bus.

followed by

Amazing what this referendum has done to people who you otherwise would assume to be quite rational

and no hint of irony.

i have never ever met anyone who, constantly or otherwise, claimed that folk voted for brexit purely because of a bus.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm glad the strong opposition Corbyn's Labour are providing is forcing the Conservatives to halt their abandonment of the NHS. Just wish they'd tell us who'll be paying for it.

As deluded as those who think its a Brexit dividend if we are being fair I'm afraid ITBYW

[South West Claret.]

It’s quite clear that the right wing mob on here just like expelling hot air on most subjects.

[Damo]

followed by


and no hint of irony.

i have never ever met anyone who, constantly or otherwise, claimed that folk voted for brexit purely because of a bus.

I'd say you obviously don't spend enough time on this forum but then I'd be talking out of my @rse

[yTib]

well your post count is higher than mine damo.

btw do you honestly believe that anyone actually assumes that leave voters are so very fickle?

or is it just another form of gloating?

[Damo]

well your post count is higher than mine damo.

Yes, high enough to read people's views on brexit

btw do you honestly believe that anyone actually assumes that leave voters are so very fickle?

or is it just another form of gloating?

No, I just think Brexit has made some people really irrational. Which leads back to my original comment

[yTib]

No, I just think Brexit has made some people really irrational.

well on that at least i think we can agree.

[If it be your will]

.

[starting_11]

I'm glad the strong opposition Corbyn's Labour are providing is forcing the Conservatives to halt their abandonment of the NHS. Just wish they'd tell us who'll be paying for it.

Shame it didn't happen sooner because I dear those cuts to mental health will have had a permanent effect on you

[If it be your will]

.

[Lancasterclaret]

Crikey ITBYW, I thought you were a corbynista?

[If it be your will]

.

[Imploding Turtle]

Two years of "we never agreed to that" and now i'm supposed to believe that this is thanks to Brexit? lol. Jog on.

[JohnMcGreal]

May (quite rightly) taking heat for the nonsense she spouted on Marr this morning. Sarah Wollaston, Conservative MP:

“The Brexit dividend tosh was expected but treats the public as fools,” she tweeted. “Sad to see government slide to populist arguments rather than evidence on such an important issue. This will make it harder to have a rational debate about the ‘who & how’ of funding and sharing this fairly.”

Reading this board, it seems that some people are more than happy to be treated as fools.

As for the NHS increase, it absolutely needs it, but I'm very uncomfortable with the government asking the general public, who have had almost a decade of austerity forced on them, to start paying more in taxes to fund it.

You can't reduce the living standards of the 99% while slashing taxes for the wealthiest 1%, and then start asking the 99% to cough up even more.

If the NHS (and other public services) needs more funding, it's time to re-evaluate the importance of reducing the top rate of income tax, the slashing of corporation tax, the near abolition of inheritance tax etc.

The 1% have done very, very well for the last decade while the majority of people are struggling to make ends meet. It's time they started to make a fairer contribution to a society that's crying out for it.

[Imploding Turtle]

...
You can't reduce the living standards of the 99% while slashing taxes for the wealthiest 1%, and then start asking the 99% to cough up even more.
...

Conservatives both side of the Atlantic aren't working for you and me, they're working for their donors and themselves. So of course they can.

[Lancasterclaret]

But surely you can see that Labour is completely obsessed by getting everyone to agree that "there is no God but Corbyn and McDonnell is his prophet".

Worst govt for decades only matched by an equally bad opposition

And regarding the manifesto, only possible to at least start all that with a strong and vibrant economy, which makes the support for Brexit even weirder

[taio]

May (quite rightly) taking heat for the nonsense she spouted on Marr this morning. Sarah Wollaston, Conservative MP:

“The Brexit dividend tosh was expected but treats the public as fools,” she tweeted. “Sad to see government slide to populist arguments rather than evidence on such an important issue. This will make it harder to have a rational debate about the ‘who & how’ of funding and sharing this fairly.”

Reading this board, it seems that some people are more than happy to be treated as fools.

As for the NHS increase, it absolutely needs it, but I'm very uncomfortable with the government asking the general public, who have had almost a decade of austerity forced on them, to start paying more in taxes to fund it.

You can't reduce the living standards of the 99% while slashing taxes for the wealthiest 1%, and then start asking the 99% to cough up even more.

If the NHS (and other public services) needs more funding, it's time to re-evaluate the importance of reducing the top rate of income tax, the slashing of corporation tax, the near abolition of inheritance tax etc.

The 1% have done very, very well for the last decade while the majority of people are struggling to make ends meet. It's time they started to make a fairer contribution to a society that's crying out for it.

Not sure raising the higher tax rate increases revenue or raising corporation tax because of the uncertainty of Brexit would be wise.

[Imploding Turtle]

Not sure raising the higher tax rate increases revenue or raising corporation tax because of the uncertainty of Brexit would be wise.

You could well be right. So because of Brexit it might have to be the working class who pay more tax right after the 1% have had 8 years of tax cuts.

That said, maybe if the Tories actually took clamping down on tax avoidance seriously we wouldn't need to raise any taxes. But, like i said, that would upset their donors and they can't be doing that.

It's something like £34bn avoided and evaded in tax each year.

[If it be your will]

.

[taio]

You could well be right. So because of Brexit it might have to be the working class who pay more tax right after the 1% have had 8 years of tax cuts.

Fortunately increasing the lower tax rate year on year has helped everyone. I'm not convinced simply increasing the higher tax rate will provide the necessary extra revenue. Polls suggest most people are content with paying a little more tax to fund health and care.

Completely agree about better addressing tax avoidance and evasion. Successive governments - both Labour and Conservative - have failed to address so it must be easier said than done.

[If it be your will]

.

[taio]

This Labour administration is the first in decades that is not reliant on wealthy donors. That is what makes this Labour administration fundamentally different in what it can and can't do.

It's good that Labour is offering something different as you referred to about their manifesto. I just happen to think they wouldn't deliver it and their message on key issues is unclear, inconsistent or confused for me.

[RingoMcCartney]

he thinks he does.

anyone quoting a 'saving' from leaving the eu is making one hell of an assumption.

and anyone assuming any increase in spending in the nhs is a direct result of brexit is clutching at straws.

And anybody who believes that if you've been paying into something, then you stop. And you wouldn't have more money to spend on other things, as a consequence. Is at best naive.....

[If it be your will]

.

[taio]

Economically they are clear. On Brexit, certainly, they are unclear, inconsistent and confused. Hell, they've just had the whip disobeyed in both directions! But then I have no idea what we should do with Brexit (taking today as the starting point). I've yet to meet someone that does.

They were clearer economically but it was predicated on raising £19b a year through increased corporation tax. I don't believe it is deliverable and in any case would be a tremendous risk as we withdraw from the EU.

[RingoMcCartney]

Economically they are clear. On Brexit, certainly, they are unclear, inconsistent and confused. Hell, they've just had the whip disobeyed in both directions! But then I have no idea what we should do with Brexit (taking today as the starting point). I've yet to meet someone that does.

Honouring the words in the booklet that went to every single household in the land at a cost of 9 million pounds. Which bore the crown coat of arms as it was an official document from her Majesty's Govenment. And whose wording was approved by the electoral commission.

"It is your decision. And the GOVERNMENT will enact your decision"

That'd be a start.

Any attempt by the Remoaner forces against democracy, to attempt to usurp the basis on which the referendum was fought. By bringing about a situation where PARLIAMENT (packed to the rafters with anti brexit MPs) controls the negotiations. Should not only see a constitutional crisis, but is would expect a legal challenge perhaps.

The booklet was the closest thing we had to an official EU referendum contract. A contract between HM Government and The People. The sore loser, forces against democracy, would do well to remember that, and resist their want to subvert it.

[yTib]

And anybody who believes that if you've been paying into something, then you stop. And you wouldn't have more money to spend on other things, as a consequence. Is at best naive.....

naive? are you honestly saying you can forecast the long term economic consequences of leaving the eu?

if you can i'd love to see your costing.

naive is assuming that belonging to the union results in a net loss. nobody knows, not even an intellectual goliath such as you.

[RingoMcCartney]

naive? are you honestly saying you can forecast the long term economic consequences of leaving the eu?.

No.

Are You?

[Imploding Turtle]

Fortunately increasing the lower tax rate year on year has helped everyone. I'm not convinced simply increasing the higher tax rate will provide the necessary extra revenue. Polls suggest most people are content with paying a little more tax to fund health and care.

Completely agree about better addressing tax avoidance and evasion. Successive governments - both Labour and Conservative - have failed to address so it must be easier said than done.

Those successive governments were also funded by the kind of people they'd be clamping down on. That's a much bigger problem in our "democracy" than people think. Elections and election campaigns should be publicly funded, but instead our parties have to pander to the rich so that they can fund their elections, and the rich aren't going to fund them without getting anything in return.