What's the point of VAR?

JayMeStar · Post by **JayMeStar** » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:57 pm

Neymar didn't get booked for what was probably a dive.

Brazil didn't get a penalty for what probably was a penalty.

Do for me.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:14 pm

Previously, without Var you got a few bad decisions going in your favour, but they tended to even themselves out.

Now, with Var you get a few bad decisions going in your favour, but they tend to even themselves out.

Can someone tell me what the advantages of now having Var are as I certainly can't see any?

They slow the game down and they force the ref to see things in slow-mo which is totally different from real time.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:02 pm

It's the future of football at the top level. It will feature in all the top leagues and also in the European Champions League probably from 2019/20 season because it is what many fans want because they think that onfield officials are unable to do their job.
When it is introduced to the PL I reckon that it will save me around £1350 per season and my local Northern League club will get my patronage at a cost of £40 per season.

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:21 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:It's the future of football at the top level. It will feature in all the top leagues and also in the European Champions League probably from 2019/20 season because it is what many fans want because they think that onfield officials are unable to do their job.
When it is introduced to the PL I reckon that it will save me around £1350 per season and my local Northern League club will get my patronage at a cost of £40 per season.

Fans should be careful what they wish for. Its coming whether we like it or not.
I still believe we are over critical of match officials. We may not agree with their decisions but that's football. Every referee in this country and around the world gives what they see from their angle at that moment in time. There is no bias. Just blinkered spectators that expect pretty much every decision in their.favour
I know how hard these guys and girls work to get to that level.they certainly do a good job however will always make mistakes.they certainly make less mistakes than the average footballer on the same field as them. Bit more respect due to all match officials across the world is in order.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:37 pm

dpinsussex wrote:Fans should be careful what they wish for. Its coming whether we like it or not.
I still believe we are over critical of match officials. We may not agree with their decisions but that's football. Every referee in this country and around the world gives what they see from their angle at that moment in time. There is no bias. Just blinkered spectators that expect pretty much every decision in their.favour
I know how hard these guys and girls work to get to that level.they certainly do a good job however will always make mistakes.they certainly make less mistakes than the average footballer on the same field as them. Bit more respect due to all match officials across the world is in order.

Wise words dp. You and I both know that these guys don't get to the top of the tree without a lot of hard work and dedication and why do they do it ----because they love the game!
Nowadays they are having to work even harder to gain promotion because they are no assessed by one person any more, it is done by committee who watch a video of the game and then take into account the observations of an independent observer who can be invited to change certain aspects and this is before any report goes to the two participating teams.
The reason that this change was brought in was because so many fans thought that a referee couldbe advanced if he was friends with the match assessor. This may well have been the case with a few in the past, however, this is definitely not the case now.

The use of VAR is making some games more important than others, however, you talk to the 15 year old playing his game on a Sunday morning and that game is as important to him as France v Croatia in a World Cup FInal.
As you say, it is coming whether we like it or not.

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:40 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:Wise words dp. You and I both know that these guys don't get to the top of the tree without a lot of hard work and dedication and why do they do it ----because they love the game!
Nowadays they are having to work even harder to gain promotion because they are no assessed by one person any more, it is done by committee who watch a video of the game and then take into account the observations of an independent observer who can be invited to change certain aspects and this is before any report goes to the two participating teams.
The reason that this change was brought in was because so many fans thought that a referee couldbe advanced if he was friends with the match assessor. This may well have been the case with a few in the past, however, this is definitely not the case now.

The use of VAR is making some games more important than others, however, you talk to the 15 year old playing his game on a Sunday morning and that game is as important to him as France v Croatia in a World Cup FInal.
As you say, it is coming whether we like it or not.

My first pre season game i was getting questioned over a decision.i put.my finger to my ear and told him VAR reviewed it and nothing is changing. To say he didn't like that was an understatement lol

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:43 pm

Spijed wrote:Previously, without Var you got a few bad decisions going in your favour, but they tended to even themselves out.

Now, with Var you get ̶a̶ ̶f̶e̶w̶ fewer bad decisions going in your favour, but they tend to even themselves out.

Can someone tell me what the advantages of now having Var are as I certainly can't see any?

They slow the game down and they force the ref to see things in slow-mo which is totally different from real time.

I made some changes to your post to help you understand the virtue of VAR.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:49 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I made some changes to your post to help you understand the virtue of VAR.

Err no. You'll get just as many bad decisions because Var allows ref's to see things unnaturally. Slow down a hand ball and it looks far different than in real time. That's what happened today.

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:49 pm

I'd rather lose the world cup down to a dodgy decision from an incompetent / blind ref than a dodgy decision from 5 refs with replay after replay after replay.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:00 pm

Spijed wrote:Err no. You'll get just as many bad decisions because Var allows ref's to see things unnaturally. Slow down a hand ball and it looks far different than in real time. That's what happened today.

For that to be true, that you'll get the same number of errors, then 50% of refereeing decisions that are overturned by VAR have to be wrong.

So are you saying that about 50% of refereeing decisions overturned by VAR are wrong?

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:03 pm

starting_11 wrote:I'd rather lose the world cup down to a dodgy decision from an incompetent / blind ref than a dodgy decision from 5 refs with replay after replay after replay.

Rate the ref scores will be going up if everyone thought like that

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:10 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:For that to be true, that you'll get the same number of errors, then 50% of refereeing decisions that are overturned by VAR have to be wrong.

So are you saying that about 50% of refereeing decisions overturned by VAR are wrong?

For a start, Var was only supposed to be used for clear errors, yet we are seeing decisions that can go either way being reviewed. Many of those will be wrong.

Also, in the World cup there are not that many matches, but if you take the entire PL season then it's fair to say a lot more decisions will be wrong. Who knows how many that will be, no-one knows.

But one thing is certain, until we know what handball is, for example, we'll have just as many mistakes.

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:12 pm

Spijed wrote:For a start, Var was only supposed to be used for clear errors, yet we are seeing decisions that can go either way being reviewed. Many of those will be wrong.

Also, in the World cup there are not that many matches, but if you take the entire PL season then it's fair to say a lot more decisions will be wrong. Who knows how many that will be, no-one knows.

But one thing is certain, until we know what handball is, for example, we'll have just as many mistakes.

The thing is match officials do. The number of players and fans that don't is considerably greater.the caveat is they are human beings.
I haven't seen the incident so can't comment on whether it was or wasn't.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:17 pm

Spijed wrote:For a start, Var was only supposed to be used for clear errors, yet we are seeing decisions that can go either way being reviewed. Many of those will be wrong.

Also, in the World cup there are not that many matches, but if you take the entire PL season then it's fair to say a lot more decisions will be wrong. Who knows how many that will be, no-one knows.

But one thing is certain, until we know what handball is, for example, we'll have just as many mistakes.

VAR is intended to overturn clear errors, not only ever be used for clear errors. VAR is constantly being used. Referrals are made to the referee if VAR thinks the referee might have made a clear mistake that he wants to check. It's the on-pitch referee's decision to overturn his earlier decision if HE thinks he's made a clear error. So you're wrong about that.

Today's VAR penalty was the correct decision. The slow-mo actually helps with this. His hand moves slowly down and then clearly sped up, which if it hadn't then it wouldn't have made contact with the ball. That change in speed almost impossible to notice in real-time, but stuck out immediately to me in the slow-mo. He even stretches his fingers out - https://www.clippituser.tv/c/ypyvqn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I honestly can't understand why the decision to overturn is remotely controversial.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:23 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Today's VAR penalty was the correct decision. The slow-mo actually helps with this. His hand moves slowly down and then clearly sped up, which if it hadn't then it wouldn't have made contact with the ball. That change in speed almost impossible to notice in real-time, but stuck out immediately to me in the slow-mo. He even stretches his fingers out - https://www.clippituser.tv/c/ypyvqn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I honestly can't understand why the decision to overturn is remotely controversial.

That's exactly why slow-mo doesn't help. You assume that when the ball passed the man less than a yard in front of him, that he reacted in such a way as to stop the ball. Human reactions don't work that fast. Try it sometime - get someone standing a yard away to tap a ball past you without warning, and see if you can stick out an arm or leg to stop it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:26 pm

dsr wrote:That's exactly why slow-mo doesn't help. You assume that when the ball passed the man less than a yard in front of him, that he reacted in such a way as to stop the ball. Human reactions don't work that fast. Try it sometime - get someone standing a yard away to tap a ball past you without warning, and see if you can stick out an arm or leg to stop it.

What do you mean "without warning"? It travelled about 30 ******* yards. Lol. And then at the last split second he put his hand down towards the path of the ball.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:27 pm

You obviously have not refereed at any level if you consider that that was intentional handball and if that same incident happens at Turf Moor next season the result will be a corner which is what was awarded originally so please don't go shouting for a penalty just because the ball hits someone's hand because there will be no review.
In 64 matches in the World Cup there have been 28 penalties awarded.
In 380 matches in the EPL last season there were 80 penalties awarded.
If we are going to use the WC as a guide this should result in over 160 penalties being awarded next season so it should be interesting to see whether this proves to be the case. Even more interessting, if you like that sort of thing, will be the following season when VAR will probably be introduced. You won't be able to move for penalties.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:30 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:You obviously have not refereed at any level if you consider that that was intentional handball and if that same incident happens at Turf Moor next season the result will be a corner which is what was awarded originally so please don't go shouting for a penalty just because the ball hits someone's hand because there will be no review.

No, but i have arms, and know that their movement doesn't speed up randomly and for no reason without a medical condition.

And if you think that having refereeing experience at some level makes someone an authority on the matter then how about someone who was refereeing a World Cup final?

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:33 pm

Pundits etc say that if the ball hits a hand and it is in an unnatural position such as above your head, which is quite feasible when you jump, then it should be penalised. In this particular case, because he was landing from having jumped his arm was returning to a 'natural' position and the ball came over the other players head and just struck the arm --there was nothing deliberate about it, in fact, had it not hit his arm it would have been headed away by the defender behind him.
So we are obviously in a situation which they seem to use in Spain where any contact with the hand has to be penalised, however, The Laws of the Game have not been changed to accommodate this interpretation. Can of worms springs to mind.

The referee changed his mind in order to maintain his status because he was being pressurised by four lesser officials looking at a TV screen, hence the amount of time it took before he even went over to have a look because he was happy with his original decision. Do as your bosses say and you keep your status as a World Cup referee --simple ----go against their wishes and the use of their new toy and you are banished from the list and you don't just get on that list without a lot of effort.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:35 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I honestly can't understand why the decision to overturn is remotely controversial.

If it's not controversial why do the majority think it was wrong to award a penalty?

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:37 pm

I agree with Joey Barton on this:

If you think that’s a pen you’re either French or you’ve never played football. Could ruin a great game that.

How is Perisic meant to get out of the way of that?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:41 pm

taio wrote:I agree with Joey Barton on this:

If you think that’s a pen you’re either French or you’ve never played football. Could ruin a great game that.

How is Perisic meant to get out of the way of that?

By not deliberately moving his hand towards the ball. Or if it wasn't deliberate then he needs to get himself checked out by some neurologists.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:43 pm

Spijed wrote:If it's not controversial why do the majority think it was wrong to award a penalty?

I don't believe i said it wasn't controversial. I'm fairly certain i said that it was controversial, just that I didn't understand why. I'd like you to review my post to see if you made a clear and obvious error.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:46 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:By not deliberately moving his hand towards the ball. Or if it wasn't deliberate then he needs to get himself checked out by some neurologists.

Never seen deliberate given Perisic would have naturally expected the French player to have got good contact on the ball.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:48 pm

Dermot Gallagher sums up well:

"100 per cent not a penalty. He's far, far too close to the ball as it comes over the forward's head

It just strikes him - he doesn't move his hand to the ball, he's got no intention of handling the ball. The law says it has to be deliberate. His arms aren't in an unorthodox position - it just doesn't tick any boxes."

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:49 pm

taio wrote:Never seen deliberate given Perisic would have naturally expected the French player to have got good contact on the ball.

His hand sped up and met the ball mid-flight. The hand position, and the movement, was unnatural. Clear as day a handball and if that was against Burnley you'd all be fuming if it wasn't given.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:51 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Clear as day a handball and if that was against Burnley you'd all be fuming if it wasn't given.

If it's clear as day why are so many saying it wasn't, including ex-referees?

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:52 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:His hand sped up and met the ball mid-flight. The hand position, and the movement, was unnatural. Clear as day a handball and if that was against Burnley you'd all be fuming if it wasn't given.

No I wouldn't because it can never be considered deliberate with the French player so close to him.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:52 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:His hand sped up and met the ball mid-flight. The hand position, and the movement, was unnatural. Clear as day a handball and if that was against Burnley you'd all be fuming if it wasn't given.

Wrong I'm afraid. We don't get fuming about penalties not given to us any more we have got used to it and also understand The Laws of the Game, I did explain this in an earlier post. I'd like you to review my post to see if you made a clear and obvious error.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:54 pm

Clattenburg: "hands are in a natural position. No movement towards ball. No penalty.”

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:54 pm

You are wrong as usual turtle. That wasn't a penalty.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:56 pm

taio wrote:No I wouldn't because it can never be considered deliberate with the French player so close to him.

So, hypothetically, if he had headed it with the french player so close to him then would the header have been accidental? After all, he'd have expected the french player to get a touch. Are we in the era of accidental headers now?

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:59 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:So, hypothetically, if he had headed it with the french player so close to him then would the header have been accidental? After all, he'd have expected the french player to get a touch. Are we in the era of accidental headers now?

What a truly pointless point.

chekhov · Post by **chekhov** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:04 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote: In 64 matches in the World Cup there have been 28 penalties awarded.
In 380 matches in the EPL last season there were 80 penalties awarded.

Interesting stat. Bizarre the number of penalties awarded but I wonder how many were a result of VAR referrals.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:24 pm

I didn't watch the World Cup final but I saw the replay of the penalty incident, did it get reviewed by VAR? an absolute farce either way, never a penalty in a million years.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:33 pm

Be careful krbfc, you are disagreeing with the turtle.

Japebe43 · Post by **Japebe43** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:34 pm

If it didnt hit his arm, it was going on target.. Intentional or not, stopping a possible goal.. Pen in my book.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:40 pm

Can you remember pogo dancing, you know where you jump as high as you can without your arms leaving your side? That is unnatural in the real world.

On 5 Live they said that Collina had instructed referee's to award a penalty if a ball and hand came together in the area, or a free kick the other way.

This is contrary to the laws of the game but he apparently said it would ensure the decision making was consistent.

Probably a FIFA edict, similar to the booking of players. This World Cup proved that gobbing off or removing your shirt is far more serious than trying to smash someone's ankle to bits.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:49 pm

chekhov wrote:Interesting stat. Bizarre the number of penalties awarded but I wonder how many were a result of VAR referrals.

Actually that was the 29th penalty awarded in the 64th match and 10 have been the subject of VAR review.

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:52 pm

Just seen the clip

I can see why it was given but imo not a pen.
Rationale

Ball to hand
Natural position for the arm.
Distance from the struck shot.

The penalty camp will say

Downward movement of arm to block the movement of the ball.

Any thoughts of other defenders are completely irrelevant unless you are considering dogso which thankfully we aren't.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:04 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What do you mean "without warning"? It travelled about 30 ******* yards. Lol. And then at the last split second he put his hand down towards the path of the ball.

Are you sure he knew for certain that the ball wouldn't be deflected?

You want to look at other people jumping up for headers. You check their hand movements - you'll find that your scenario of hands moving at exactly the same pace throughout is utterly cloud cuckoo.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:12 pm

dsr wrote:Are you sure he knew for certain that the ball wouldn't be deflected?

You want to look at other people jumping up for headers. You check their hand movements - you'll find that your scenario of hands moving at exactly the same pace throughout is utterly cloud cuckoo.

Not if you have synchronised jumping!

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:22 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:Not if you have synchronised jumping!

Synchronised falling over and appealing for a penalty, perhaps. All the arms fly upwards at the same rate, whether tripped, pushed, or shot.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:09 am

I thought VAR was a good idea but having seen it in action and especially today it has made a beautiful game less so. Croatia lost to two awful decisions by the referee and IMO VAR made a poor ref even worse. Unless we stop players appealing to the ref to use the damn thing and make sure that the status quo applies if the ref has to view VAR for longer than 30 seconds it will make the game worse not better

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:18 am

so wrong, the decisions were spot on, ref rightfully took his time to decide croatia cheated, and first goal came from clumsy foul that again, was caught on camera.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:55 am

Seulement vrai si vous allez en France., qui?

Heathclaret · Post by **Heathclaret** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:42 am

Graham Poll, correct decision for the penalty, hand to ball.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:43 am

The only thing I've learned from this thread is VAR won't be eliminating endless arguments and grievances about decisions. 90% of the time it's still going to be a matter of opinion.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:49 am

NottsClaret wrote:The only thing I've learned from this thread is VAR won't be eliminating endless arguments and grievances about decisions. 90% of the time it's still going to be a matter of opinion.

Notts it is 100% a matter of opinion. All that VAR does is invite another opinion, or 4 in this case, to question the decisions of the onfield officials. We have moved on from three onfield officials giving decisions in real time in a fast moving game to adding another opinion of someone looking at a screen with different camera angles and in slow motion. It is not the way I want to watch football, particularly when those who are paying to attend matches are being kept in the dark.

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:56 am

Simplify the handball rule - if the hand alters the direction of the ball, free kick. If it denies a goal scoring opportunity, penalty and red card. This removes all debate about deliberate or accidental and removes subjectivity and punishes 50/50 handball calls with a less severe penalty.

Why couldn't that work? It's pretty much how it works outside the penalty area where plenty of accidental handballs are given as free kicks with barely a peep from anyone.