Safe Standing

Longside4evr · Post by **Longside4evr** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:36 am

The bill for safe standing at premiere and championship clubs to be debated today in parliament
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/44362522" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:14 am

I’m not sure how this works as I’ve never been on there before, but I assume you can watch the debate live from 16.30?

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/7 ... fe5917515f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

claretblue · Post by **claretblue** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:22 am

Claretforever wrote:but I assume you can watch the debate live from 16.30?

can you pay on the gate?

Burnley1989 · Post by **Burnley1989** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:23 am

Claretforever wrote:I’m not sure how this works as I’ve never been on there before, but I assume you can watch the debate live from 16.30?

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/7 ... fe5917515f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can even stand up to watch it if you want

claretblue · Post by **claretblue** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:09 pm

just received this update from Dr Rosena Allin-Khan MP (Shadow Minister for Sport):

'...Earlier this month, as the Shadow Minister for Sport, I was proud to announce Labour's backing of Safe Standing at football matches. We couldn't have done this without your input and support.

Today, there is a Safe Standing debate in Parliament where I want to ensure that the Government listens to you.

There are rumours that the Government are going to cancel the Safe Standing review they announced 3 weeks ago - don't let this happen - tweet now:...'

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:10 pm

claretblue wrote: There are rumours that the Government are going to cancel the Safe Standing review they announced 3 weeks ago - don't let this happen - tweet now:...'

Could the cancellation of the review be a good thing? Possibly they’ve noted the feeling around the country and are going with the flow?

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:37 pm

It's obviously going to be a farce because they have sided politically with the Taylor report than damned terracing when the actual terracing designs were not at fault for either Bradford, Heysel nor Hillsborough.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:22 pm

Pstotto wrote:It's obviously going to be a farce because they have sided politically with the Taylor report than damned terracing when the actual terracing designs were not at fault for either Bradford, Heysel nor Hillsborough.

All of which were a generation ago.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:32 pm

As long as the reintroduction of standing is accompanied by a real commitment to stamp out standing elsewhere in the stadium, then whatever they want. Otherwise we'll just get the standing area and everybody else having to stand as well.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:35 pm

Tweet now?

If tweeting changed anything, they’d ban it.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:54 pm

thatdberight wrote:As long as the reintroduction of standing is accompanied by a real commitment to stamp out standing elsewhere in the stadium, then whatever they want. Otherwise we'll just get the standing area and everybody else having to stand as well.

I think you have misunderstood what this is about if you think that. It's all about giving people the choice between sitting and standing safely.

Working_Class_Zero · Post by **Working_Class_Zero** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:36 pm

Julie Cooper just spoke in favour. And praised Sean Dyche.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:37 pm

Working_Class_Zero wrote:Julie Cooper just spoke in favour. And praised Sean Dyche.

I've had long conversations with Julie Cooper on the issue over the past few weeks and she contacted me last week to say she would be both attending and speaking in favour.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:52 pm

The link I posted further up is definitely worth having a listen on. Some great points.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:05 pm

Jonathan Reynolds, MP for Stalybridge & Hyde, is a Sunderland fan and said he never felt unsafe on the old Roker End. Ian Mearns, MP for Gateshead and Newcastle season ticket holder, disagreed. He said he always felt unsafe in the Roker End.

Excellent debate this afternoon and can only takes things forward even more.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:30 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I think you have misunderstood what this is about if you think that. It's all about giving people the choice between sitting and standing safely.

I'm not sure what you misunderstood. I have no dog in the fight for safe standing. What I do want is ground regulations that work. If we have safe standing, fine. But, as a quid pro quo, let's make it clear that non-standing areas will be properly managed and standing not allowed. What's hard to understand about that?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:32 pm

thatdberight wrote:I'm not sure what you misunderstood. I have no dog in the fight for safe standing. What I do want is ground regulations that work. If we have safe standing, fine. But, as a quid pro quo, let's make it clear that non-standing areas will be properly managed and standing not allowed. What's hard to understand about that?

It's you who are misunderstanding the whole thing. Have you listened to the debate or what's gone before? All about the choice of sitting or standing safely. So many MPs have made that exact point over the last two hours.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:37 pm

ClaretTony wrote:It's you who are misunderstanding the whole thing. Have you listened to the debate or what's gone before? All about the choice of sitting or standing safely. So many MPs have made that exact point over the last two hours.

This really isn't difficult Tony. We currently have ground regulations that ban standing but are not properly enforced, if at all. Those were debated in parliament too, long ago. All I'm saying is that, if we go to safe standing in some areas, there should be reinforcement of the ground regulations which prohibit standing in non-standing areas. Is that not acceptable to you?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:40 pm

thatdberight wrote:This really isn't difficult Tony. We currently have ground regulations that ban standing but are not properly enforced, if at all. Those were debated in parliament too, long ago. All I'm saying is that, if we go to safe standing in some areas, there should be reinforcement of the ground regulations which prohibit standing in non-standing areas. Is that not acceptable to you?

No it isn't difficult but you clearly haven't grasped it at all. It is all about giving people the choice so people can stand if they choose or sit if they choose when right now, as is often the case, there is no choice whatsoever. You seemed to have missed the point entirely that safe standing will also allow those who wish to sit the option to do so.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:45 pm

ClaretTony wrote:No it isn't difficult but you clearly haven't grasped it at all. It is all about giving people the choice so people can stand if they choose or sit if they choose when right now, as is often the case, there is no choice whatsoever. You seemed to have missed the point entirely that safe standing will also allow those who wish to sit the option to do so.

Only if the ground regulations are enforced. As we all know, they're not currently enforced. But you don't seem too interested in that side of it?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:51 pm

thatdberight wrote:Only if the ground regulations are enforced. As we all know, they're not currently enforced. But you don't seem too interested in that side of it?

You really are missing the point entirely. It's about the introduction of safe standing areas in ground which in turn then allows for seating in grounds where people are required to sit. You can't have listened to much of it this afternoon because MP after MP has spoken of giving people the choice of sitting or standing. It is not about what happens now, but where we can go. I fully understand and am fully interested. I've spent hours and hours on this, attended meetings in various places including some in London. I recently tried to get a group of fans together to work on this.

So I am 100% interested, fully understand and want to see safe standing become an option so people can then also sit.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:56 pm

ClaretTony wrote:You really are missing the point entirely. It's about the introduction of safe standing areas in ground which in turn then allows for seating in grounds where people are required to sit. You can't have listened to much of it this afternoon because MP after MP has spoken of giving people the choice of sitting or standing. It is not about what happens now, but where we can go. I fully understand and am fully interested. I've spent hours and hours on this, attended meetings in various places including some in London. I recently tried to get a group of fans together to work on this.

So I am 100% interested, fully understand and want to see safe standing become an option so people can then also sit.

So what would you like to see as regards the management of non-standing areas in the future then, since you're fully engaged and not simply interested in getting standing back? What, if any, additional sanctions would you like to see introduced for fans who stand there or clubs who allow this?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:02 pm

thatdberight wrote:So what would you like to see as regards the management of non-standing areas in the future then, since you're fully engaged and not simply interested in getting standing back? What, if any, additional sanctions would you like to see introduced for fans who stand there or clubs who allow this?

I've already explained but you don't seem to understand what this is all about. It would be beneficial to those who wish to stand and would be beneficial to those who wish to sit. That would make it a better experience for both compared to what we have now. Today we get conflict but with this we could be giving everyone the choice of sitting or standing. I really don't understand how you don't get it.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:04 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I've already explained but you don't seem to understand what this is all about. It would be beneficial to those who wish to stand and would be beneficial to those who wish to sit. That would make it a better experience for both compared to what we have now. Today we get conflict but with this we could be giving everyone the choice of sitting or standing. I really don't understand how you don't get it.

Just so I understand your viewpoint. You believe that once safe standing is introduced, there will be no problem with standing in the remaining seated area?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:06 pm

thatdberight wrote:Just so I understand your viewpoint. You believe that once safe standing is introduced, there will be no problem with standing in the remaining seated area?

Finally you've got it. That's exactly what it will be. With standing areas, sitting will be enforced elsewhere.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:09 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Finally you've got it. That's exactly what it will be. With standing areas, sitting will be enforced elsewhere.

So when I said that standing was fine, as long as the sitting regulations are enforced in the rest of the ground (my first post), it seems you meant to agree with me, since you've just repeated that...

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:12 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Finally you've got it. That's exactly what it will be. With standing areas, sitting will be enforced elsewhere.

I’d hope you are right but if they go, as a starter, with 10% as put forward there will still be folk who a)can’t get into the safe standing zone or b)don’t want to move from their current seat but still want to stand.
Change is going to come, it’s just when.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:20 pm

A very good debate, although I use the term debate quite loosely as it appeared that almost everyone agreed that re-introducing standing areas to football grounds, in a safer guise in the top two divisions, was the way forward.

I worry about the last comments from Crouch though, as most people don’t bother reporting minor injuries in grounds, so where they’re going to get that data from I have no ide?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:40 pm

Claretforever wrote:A very good debate, although I use the term debate quite loosely as it appeared that almost everyone agreed that re-introducing standing areas to football grounds, in a safer guise in the top two divisions, was the way forward.

I worry about the last comments from Crouch though, as most people don’t bother reporting minor injuries in grounds, so where they’re going to get that data from I have no ide?

I worry about Crouch full stop to be honest, but today, overall, has been a positive day and I was really pleased with how my MP Julie Cooper spoke.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:05 am

I didn’t watch the debate so was there an outcome in terms of a review or a white paper?
Or was the review mentioned earlier not cancelled in the end?

turfytopper · Post by **turfytopper** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:35 am

ClaretTony wrote:No it isn't difficult but you clearly haven't grasped it at all. It is all about giving people the choice so people can stand if they choose or sit if they choose when right now, as is often the case, there is no choice whatsoever. You seemed to have missed the point entirely that safe standing will also allow those who wish to sit the option to do so.

Yes exactly..... I want the right to sit!

But i want those that want to, to stand.......allowing me to sit lol.
I really think you need to travel to away games to grasp this concept and understand the issues.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:37 am

Well that one has to get a bite

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:48 am

piston broke wrote:I didn’t watch the debate so was there an outcome in terms of a review or a white paper?
Or was the review mentioned earlier not cancelled in the end?

She has commissioned the review. I really do believe this is going to happen finally. I think we have a real chance to see clubs able to install safe standing areas by the start of 2019/20 season. All the hard work by so many people looks as though it is going to pay off.

Barry_Chuckle · Post by **Barry_Chuckle** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:00 am

The key to this being successful is down to whether the Government dig their heals in on the 10% of capacity figure.

If, they allow each club to decide what % they want as safe standing, or cap it at say 25%, this would alot more successful.

I believe around 25% would be the number who attend Turf Moor who would choose to stand if given the option.

This is most definitely a "step" in the right direction, but I'd rather see a "stride"

JTClaret · Post by **JTClaret** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:17 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Finally you've got it. That's exactly what it will be. With standing areas, sitting will be enforced elsewhere.

Could you not just have agreed that the seating areas should be properly enforced if safe standing was available?
I'm sure there will still be fans who stand in seating areas, especially away from home even if this was to come in.
Clearly safe standing will help massively, but I'd be surprised if it solved the posters problem at every game.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:30 pm

Barry_Chuckle wrote:The key to this being successful is down to whether the Government dig their heals in on the 10% of capacity figure.

If, they allow each club to decide what % they want as safe standing, or cap it at say 25%, this would alot more successful.

I believe around 25% would be the number who attend Turf Moor who would choose to stand if given the option.

This is most definitely a "step" in the right direction, but I'd rather see a "stride"

Don’t think there was any mention of 10%. The discussion and what has to be pushed through in review is allowing the decisions to be made at club level.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:33 pm

JTClaret wrote:Could you not just have agreed that the seating areas should be properly enforced if safe standing was available?
I'm sure there will still be fans who stand in seating areas, especially away from home even if this was to come in.
Clearly safe standing will help massively, but I'd be surprised if it solved the posters problem at every game.

That’s exactly the point I was trying to make but didn’t need to because it was repeated time and again yesterday by MPs.

If safe standing is finally introduced then enforcing people to sit in the seating areas has to and will happen. Simple as that really which is why the word CHOICE was constantly used. Choice to stand, choice to sit.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:32 pm

Spurs presented this yesterday, showing what they intend implementing in areas at their new stadium if they get the green light.

I know it looks like something you'd get at IKEA.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:45 pm

ClaretTony wrote:That’s exactly the point I was trying to make but didn’t need to because it was repeated time and again yesterday by MPs.

If safe standing is finally introduced then enforcing people to sit in the seating areas has to and will happen. Simple as that really which is why the word CHOICE was constantly used. Choice to stand, choice to sit.

What's the mechanism being discussed to ensure this happens? Clearly, it'll have to be something stronger than ground regulations because, even now, you've got (for example) Cardiff City who are not simply turning a blind eye to persistent standing but have created a comprehensive process around showing why 1) it's not a requirement to make people sit and 2) in their view why it's better not to enforce the ground regulations. What will change those views and management processes?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:55 pm

thatdberight wrote:What's the mechanism being discussed to ensure this happens? Clearly, it'll have to be something stronger than ground regulations because, even now, you've got (for example) Cardiff City who are not simply turning a blind eye to persistent standing but have created a comprehensive process around showing why 1) it's not a requirement to make people sit and 2) in their view why it's better not to enforce the ground regulations. What will change those views and management processes?

What Cardiff have done and what, in effect, Burnley have done, is exactly the way we want to go. At Burnley, supporters know they can stand in some parts of the ground, cricket field end, but know they must sit elsewhere which they do. It works. It works at Cardiff too. Supporters don't stand in the non-standing areas. That's how it would work. Cardiff and Burnley, plus other clubs, are showing how it works. The problem really is worse for away supporters because people tend to stand regardless of others wishing to sit. That will end once there is a choice.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm

ClaretTony wrote:The problem really is worse for away supporters because people tend to stand regardless of others wishing to sit. That will end once there is a choice.

I'll bookmark this. We can come back to it in a couple of years' time and if it's turned out like you say, I'll adopt your optimistic approach in future.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:01 pm

thatdberight wrote:I'll bookmark this. We can come back to it in a couple of years' time and if it's turned out like you say, I'll adopt your optimistic approach in future.

I'm absolutely staggered given you listened to the debate yesterday.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:32 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I'm absolutely staggered given you listened to the debate yesterday.

I
I'm just going with proven inability / unwillingness to enforce Ground Regulations as opposed to some words spoken in Westminster Hall. Like I say, I'll be happy to adopt your sunnier disposition when proven wrong.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:51 pm

thatdberight wrote:I
I'm just going with proven inability / unwillingness to enforce Ground Regulations as opposed to some words spoken in Westminster Hall. Like I say, I'll be happy to adopt your sunnier disposition when proven wrong.

One of the very points of the whole thing is giving people a choice and ensuring people sit in seating areas. Without that it doesn't work. If you don't understand that now then there's been a lot of time wasted by a lot of people.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:57 pm

ClaretTony wrote:One of the very points of the whole thing is giving people a choice and ensuring people sit in seating areas. Without that it doesn't work. If you don't understand that now then there's been a lot of time wasted by a lot of people.

My issue isn't about what's planned. The proof of the pudding and all that.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:05 pm

thatdberight wrote:My issue isn't about what's planned. The proof of the pudding and all that.

The issue is all about plans, or trying to move this forward to allow it. Just about everyone spoke yesterday of giving football supporters the choice, either standing in a safe standing area, or sitting in a seating area. I didn't think that was difficult to grasp but you keep referring to what happens now (when standing isn't permitted) and ground regulations.

I thing you might have been better off offering praise to all those people who have pushed for this, worked damned hard to get us to where we are today and support what is wanted.

JohnDearyMe · Post by **JohnDearyMe** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:06 pm

Are any of our current stands more suitable for safe standing than others? Wonder if the club already has plans for one of them (e.g. longside lower tier)

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:28 pm

The trouble with the Longside and Jimmy Mac lower tiers is that standing people will affect this in the Executive areas, as they weren’t designed for seating. Different with the CFS as although the rake seems steeper there are no exec boxes in it.

I think the CFS could be converted, but suspect a new stand/stands around the two older areas will allow us maybe 6,000 rail seating places, inc away fans.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:29 pm

You can watch the full debate here:

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Ind ... fe5917515f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:08 pm

A bit more on the Spurs plans

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/cl ... te-250618/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;