National Service

[deanothedino]

So we have a chronic shortage of sparkies, plumbers, and box lifter-uppers in the forces that requires conscription, do we?

Sailors. Massive shortage of them. Submariners, ask some of those how often they're a 'soldier'. Aircrew in the RAF, engineers across all three branches. Medical staff. Chefs, food doesn't magically appear in the forces. Auxiliary staff like those in the RFA. Drivers, air traffic control, cartographers...

Do I need to carry on or?

[Rick_Muller]

I actually quite like the idea of national service but not just a militarism version. I’d personally extend it to the wider population for all working age people to have to offer time to services that would benefit the nation. Perhaps people who don’t want to be militaristic about their service could offer other skills they may have in homeless food kitchens for example.

I spent a few months volunteering for the BHF when I was unemployed - it really did change my outlook on life and made me more altruistic as a result. I am less materialistic too, all good traits for improving a nation, which is what I believe national service should be about.

[Colburn_Claret]

Well that is just demonstrably bull$hit. Everyone needs water, protection from the elements and nutrients, but beyond that 'purpose in life' is a philosophical debate. Unbelievable arrogance from some to determine the life's purpose of another human being.

I never tried to determine the life of anyone.
People do need a purpose in life. That might be to be a doctor, or a mechanic, a teacher or even just a good parent. Too many young today are drifting and don't know what they are doing here, especially in this day and age, when getting that first rung of the ladder is so hard.
Why look on it as a punishment instead of an opportunity. I'm sure it isn't for everyone, and I wouldn't dream of conscripting anyone in to it, but I still see it as a chance to make something of yourself. All of the Services are footpaths to hundreds of trades, that many ex soldiers carry back into civvy life.

[AndrewJB]

I’m in favour of a kind of national service, but something more wide ranging than the military. The NHS, schools, community initiatives, and a whole raft of things could do with more manpower. And in return those young people should get free university (or continued education).

[Lord Beamish]

“A Standing Army is like an Erect Penis; an excellent reassurance of Domestic Tranquility, but also a dangerous temptation to Foreign Adventure.” Elbridge Gerry.

It’s a no to National Service from me.

[Lord Beamish]

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[Spiral]

Sailors. Massive shortage of them. Submariners, ask some of those how often they're a 'soldier'. Aircrew in the RAF, engineers across all three branches. Medical staff. Chefs, food doesn't magically appear in the forces. Auxiliary staff like those in the RFA. Drivers, air traffic control, cartographers...

Do I need to carry on or?

Ever the chef is taught how to fire an SA80-in the case of conscription, against his will-which is the point you're spectacularly missing.

[deanothedino]

Ever the chef is taught how to fire an SA80, in the case of conscription, against his will, which is the point you're spectacularly missing.

Is it the first thing he does? No. Is it something he has to do regularly? No.

You made it sound like the first thing they do is show them to kill with their bare hands and then release them onto the streets.

I think it’s you who is missing the point and you who sounds pretty disrespectful of our armed forces.

[Spiral]

Is it the first thing he does? No. Is it something he has to do regularly? No.

No, but regardless of the day-to-day of his specialisation, he still undergoes basic militarisation. Again, I'm not disrespecting the military and I think you're being very emotional to assume I am. I'm making the argument that forcing people against their will into militarisation could be a recipe for disaster. You can't 'beat' people into 'decency' or whatever folk want to call it. It'll only ever foster recalcitrance in those whom national service is ostensibly supposed by it's advocates to affect.

[nil_desperandum]

This thread was obviously a joke, though it's sad to see some of the responses that express hatred towards the elderly(c&j) and disabled(fatboy post 11) etc.

Why was it a joke?
Personally I think that Macron's proposals are interesting, and certainly worth discussing / considering.
It's really got nothing to do with the military.

[deanothedino]

No, but regardless of the day-to-day of his specialisation, he still undergoes basic militarisation. Again, I'm not disrespecting the military and I think you're being very emotional to assume I am. I'm making the argument that forcing people against their will into militarisation could be a recipe for disaster.

Maybe it could be but is what we’re doing now any better?

I know of plenty of people in their mid to late twenties who are just drifting from job to job because they don’t know what they want to do. I also know of people who aren’t even drifting from job to job. Some of them are lazy but most are more lost and unable to process what they want to do and unable to stick at something they’re not fully invested in.

[Imploding Turtle]

For context, these are examples of what Damo now thinks is "hatred".

It's hardly outrage is it? It's a good guess, and I'm going to think the same.

It'll be your fat 55 year old retirees who bought their houses for 4 grand and sold them for 120,000 and then say that kids don't do anything these days and when they were young they had a job and a house and two cars and blah blah blah.

Like the OP, I too was brought up to respect people, but I really struggle with the kind of half-witted mongs and trogs who talk through their ring pieces about bringing back National Service, the birch, hanging... blah blah..

[Spiral]

Maybe it could be but is what we’re doing now any better?

I know of plenty of people in their mid to late twenties who are just drifting from job to job because they don’t know what they want to do. I also know of people who aren’t even drifting from job to job. Some of them are lazy but most are more lost and unable to process what they want to do and unable to stick at something they’re not fully invested in.

I've added an edit to my last post, deano, just in case you missed it.

Thing is, that's always been the case. People being lost in their life isn't anything new. With an abundance (relatively, anthropologically) of food, water and shelter, it's inevitable that some or even many will struggle to find what people, idiotically IMO, call 'purpose'. Forcing them to a 'calling' won't improve their lives, and in a select few cases would send others (pre-psychotic, neurotic) over the edge of sanity.

I suppose what I'm saying is, and I promise you I don't mean this in a c.untish way, who are you to judge someone for living job to job, to write a prescription for their life and to presume you (i.e, the state, via national service) knows better?

[If it be your will]

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[If it be your will]

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[deanothedino]

I've added an edit to my last post, deano, just in case you missed it.

Thing is, that's always been the case. People being lost in their life isn't anything new. With an abundance (relatively, anthropologically) of food, water and shelter, it's inevitable that some or even many will struggle to find what people, idiotically IMO, call 'purpose'. Forcing them to a 'calling' won't improve their lives, and in a select few cases would send others (pre-psychotic, neurotic) over the edge of sanity.

I suppose what I'm saying is, and I promise you I don't mean this in a c.untish way, who are you to judge someone for living job to job, to write a prescription for their life and to presume you (i.e, the state, via national service) knows better?

But that isn’t what is being suggested. A month, even a year, of national service isn’t writing a prescription for someone’s life. How is it any worse than the requirement to be in training or education that exists now?

It might not be something new but I think with the internet and social media it’s worse than ever.

I’m not judging anyone for chopping and changing jobs. I know I am fortunate that I’ve known the type of work I’ve wanted to do since a young age and I’m fortunate that it is the kind of work that I am suited to. I’m also lucky that I’ve so far been able to make a decent career out of doing that work. I just happen to think that national service could help steer many in the direction of what they want to do because it is much more than being a soldier.

[TheFamilyCat]

BOTs got a book coming out soon about his experiences in his youth.

He's going to call it "My Struggle"

I think he'll call it "My Struggle With Sandals"

[LoveCurryPies]

We get involved in far too many wars. Why not be more like Switzerland or the Scadenavian countries, ie have a much smaller military force to protect the homeland?

People can chose to join the forces or not. Leave it that way.

[deanothedino]

We get involved in far too many wars. Why not be more like Switzerland or the Scadenavian countries, ie have a much smaller military force to protect the homeland?

People can chose to join the forces or not. Leave it that way.

The Swiss have a bigger available force than we do.

And they have national service for males.

[If it be your will]

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[Imploding Turtle]

We get involved in far too many wars. Why not be more like Switzerland or the Scadenavian countries, ie have a much smaller military force to protect the homeland?

People can chose to join the forces or not. Leave it that way.

It would say an awful lot about how we've betrayed our armed forces personel and their families by misusing them if it gets to the point where we have to force people into national service to maintain our military.

[Spiral]

But that isn’t what is being suggested. A month, even a year, of national service isn’t writing a prescription for someone’s life. How is it any worse than the requirement to be in training or education that exists now?

It might not be something new but I think with the internet and social media it’s worse than ever.

I’m not judging anyone for chopping and changing jobs. I know I am fortunate that I’ve known the type of work I’ve wanted to do since a young age and I’m fortunate that it is the kind of work that I am suited to. I’m also lucky that I’ve so far been able to make a decent career out of doing that work. I just happen to think that national service could help steer many in the direction of what they want to do because it is much more than being a soldier.

State education and national service aren't the same thing. Sorry to be a d!ck, but that's a false equivalence if ever there was one.

Re. social media, I think it's an absolutely incredible thing that has massively democratised information but not without side effects - notably, amplifying neuroticism. I don't want people whose reality is best articulated by a series of memes to be forced into standing here, doing that, told to wake up at this time or that, march so far, climb that, march this far, wake up at this time, stand there, salute him, wear this, clean this, fold that, clean that, clean this, lift that, and be able fire a rifle all against their will. If you skimmed over that that last sentence thank's for proving my point. I don't want sane people doing that either, FWIW, because I quite like idea of people being allowed the freedom to do whatever the **** they want, even if it results in destitution.

[Colburn_Claret]

[quote="If it be your will"][/quote]
The 2 statements don't contradict each other, I said it would be good for them, I never said I would force them to do it.

[deanothedino]

State education and national service aren't the same thing. Sorry to be a d!ck, but that's a false equivalence if ever there was one.

Have you read the thread? What is being put forward isn't national service as we know it.

[Bfcboyo]

Two years minimum. Four for some particular posters.

[ClaretMoffitt]

Definitely support this, should be a year.

I'd glady do it myself too. Make men out of all the betas and cosmopolitan soy boys with some luck.

[Lancasterclaret]

There you go CM, knock yourself out

Army 0345 600 8080.

You don't have to have conscription to join it. The lines are open now. What are you waiting for?

[claretonthecoast1882]

I didn't expect to see so many against this. Macron has just done this and everything european is cool I thought.

[lancastrian]

No chance of bringing National Service coming back the country cannot afford this. I did my NS with 18months spent in Kenya towards the end of the Mau Mau emergency. No home leave, no telephone calls how would the modern generation cope.Went back to Kenya sometime ago for a holiday and what a mess it is now especially in urban areas.

[evensteadiereddie]

Definitely support this, should be a year.

I'd glady do it myself too. Make men out of all the betas and cosmopolitan soy boys with some luck.

And those sentiments tell us exactly why a military-based National Service scheme, quite rightly, is a non-starter.
He'd "glady" do it himself - as if !
Total cock.

[lancastrian]

The country cannot afford to bring back National Service. I did my NS with 18 months spent in Kenya towards the end of the Mau Mau emergency. No home leave no telenphone calls how would the modern generation cope. When I was eighteen you didn't think twice about going it was part of growing up. Doubt weather today's genemration would have the same outlook.

[Lancasterclaret]

Thats slightly fairer than your original post I feel.

I'd just go back to my original post. How is this going to solve anything and not intensify the divide between the haves and the have nots, the old and the young etc etc etc

[houseboy]

Let's face it, national service is a bloody disgrace. Taking young men away from their families, many of whom may be married with kids, and forcing them to go play soldiers and teaching them how to kill (or even BE killed) is wrong on every level, and in this day and age of so-called equality are we going to extend this little party invitation to females as well, or will the politically correct powers that be 'overlook' that one? I was too young to do it (thankfully) and am now too old to do it (thankfully) but I would never suggest bringing it back under any circumstances.
And for anyone who suggests that being in the army gives self-discipline ask anyone who has served or lives in or near a garrison town, off-duty soldiers can be an out-of-control rabble.

[lancastrian]

It was a different world then Houseboy. Between 1945 and the early sixties over 2million young men did their National Service supplementing the regular military at a time when the Cold War was at its height. But for those (NS men you could well be speaking Russian today

[If it be your will]

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[SammyBoy]

My Grandad did military service from 1949-51 and spent quite a bit of his time on the Suez canal, mainly constructing water tanks I believe. It's fair to say he disliked everything about it, from the searing heat, the hostile locals and mostly being away from his family. I've asked him his thoughts on the reintroduction of national service and he responded with an unequivocal no.

[nil_desperandum]

Let's face it, national service is a bloody disgrace. Taking young men away from their families, many of whom may be married with kids, and forcing them to go play soldiers and teaching them how to kill (or even BE killed) is wrong on every level, and in this day and age of so-called equality are we going to extend this little party invitation to females as well, or will the politically correct powers that be 'overlook' that one? I was too young to do it (thankfully) and am now too old to do it (thankfully) but I would never suggest bringing it back under any circumstances.
And for anyone who suggests that being in the army gives self-discipline ask anyone who has served or lives in or near a garrison town, off-duty soldiers can be an out-of-control rabble.

If you actually read what Macron is proposing then there's not a single valid point in your argument.
Loads of posts on here based on a total misunderstanding of what is being proposed. It's very little different to the 2 weeks "work experience" that most young people in the UK have done over the past 25 years or so, (except it's for 4 weeks), and beyond that it's voluntary.
Only on this board can the argument be so twisted to such an extent that we end up discussing proposals that are not on the table and so wide of the mark as to be ludicrous.

[AlargeClaret]

We’ll never bring it back out of wartime . The infrastructure changes are mind boggling . “Going out on limb” and presuming that only “ old people” voted for it is like going out on a limb and saying “ I bet most non whites voted against it” both likely true but both stating the bleeding obvious .

[houseboy]

I totally agree with all this, but I'm left asking myself a question: If we decide we need an army, someone has to do it, so who should do it? At the moment the military blatantly target the disappointed, the poor, and the ones in dead end jobs. I've seen their TV adverts, and they're horrible: You might be a total loser now, but join the army and we'll make you a man. And some of them are married with kids, too. They even target kids on results day, hoping they'll make a rash decision driven by despair https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... itment-ads" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . At the moment (albeit with exceptions), we are getting the poor to fight for the well-off. The politicians would think more carefully how the military were deployed if their own kids were on the front line.

War is an odd concept mate but if you strip it down to it's bare bones what you have is a situation where one government declares war on another government and then orders it's young men to go fight and kill or be killed on that governments behalf, while that government sits at home counting the bloody bodies. The real irony being that the people making the decision to go to war on both sides number just a few dozen but the numbers killed can and have in the past numbered millions. World war one was nothing other than a human cull with young men being told to walk into machine gun fire to almost certain death or be shot by their own men for alleged cowardice, while the real cowards sat at home making the decisions.

[houseboy]

If you actually read what Macron is proposing then there's not a single valid point in your argument.
Loads of posts on here based on a total misunderstanding of what is being proposed. It's very little different to the 2 weeks "work experience" that most young people in the UK have done over the past 25 years or so, (except it's for 4 weeks), and beyond that it's voluntary.
Only on this board can the argument be so twisted to such an extent that we end up discussing proposals that are not on the table and so wide of the mark as to be ludicrous.

If you actually read my post as opposed to making it up as you go along I was voicing an opinion on conscription not talking about something that hasn't happened yet. It may well not happen and probably won't but if it did it would be wholly wrong.

[Blackrod]

Good idea bring it back.

[South West Claret.]

National Service? Before a job offer people usually like to know what the wages and conditions are, so what are they then?

Still waiting for the answer.

[nil_desperandum]

If you actually read my post as opposed to making it up as you go along I was voicing an opinion on conscription not talking about something that hasn't happened yet. It may well not happen and probably won't but if it did it would be wholly wrong.

I've read all the posts, and I am one of a few on this thread who actually knows what the debate is about and the context for it.
The OP posted a chart showing the results of a survey referring to President Macron proposing to re-introduce a form of National Service in France, but based on the responses, most have clearly not read what is being proposed.
It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with conscription and indeed very little to do with the military, and is only for 4 weeks!
Personally I think it's an idea worth debating, but instead people have been arguing with each other as though young people are going to be "called up". Of course it would be "wholly wrong" - but no one is proposing that.

[houseboy]

I've read all the posts, and I am one of a few on this thread who actually knows what the debate is about and the context for it.
The OP posted a chart showing the results of a survey referring to President Macron proposing to re-introduce a form of National Service in France, but based on the responses, most have clearly not read what is being proposed.
It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with conscription and indeed very little to do with the military, and is only for 4 weeks!
Personally I think it's an idea worth debating, but instead people have been arguing with each other as though young people are going to be "called up". Of course it would be "wholly wrong" - but no one is proposing that.

And all this has WHAT to do with my opinion on conscription? The OP made me think about what conscription is and what it does to people's lives and I commented accordingly but you seem completely unable to grasp this. Or maybe you are someone who simply likes to argue for the sake of it. What Macron said or proposed is of no concern to me, but what the post did was act as a catalyst to another train of thought, that is all.
Unless you think that shouldn't be allowed.

[enduroclaret]

Irrespective of this current proposal I'm against mandatory National service, based on what my father told me about his two years national service in the army between 1947 and 1949.
He called it a "University Of Skiving" basically the lads didn't want to be there, and they spent most of their time avoiding work details and bunking off by whatever means possible....they all became experts at it.
It contributed to a national anti-work/anti-authority attitude which was prevalent in the 1960's through to the 1980's.
Most of the 70's sit-coms seemed to be about getting one over on the boss or dodging work in some way.

[SammyBoy]

Irrespective of this current proposal I'm against mandatory National service, based on what my father told me about his two years national service in the army between 1947 and 1949.
He called it a "University Of Skiving" basically the lads didn't want to be there, and they spent most of their time avoiding work details and bunking off by whatever means possible....they all became experts at it.
It contributed to a national anti-work/anti-authority attitude which was prevalent in the 1960's through to the 1980's.
Most of the 70's sit-coms seemed to be about getting one over on the boss or dodging work in some way.

My Grandad actually said words to a similar effect, when he was in Egypt he said he often purposefully broke the rules in some way to get a week in the military prison. It kept you in the shade and got you out of grafting in the desert.

[ClaretMoffitt]

And those sentiments tell us exactly why a military-based National Service scheme, quite rightly, is a non-starter.
He'd "glady" do it himself - as if !
Total cock.

Confirmed soy boy.

[ClaretMoffitt]

There you go CM, knock yourself out

Army 0345 600 8080.

You don't have to have conscription to join it. The lines are open now. What are you waiting for?

Will do if it means compulsory NS for everyone else

[Greenmile]

Confirmed soy boy.

Confirmed alt+right troll

“Men can be called ‘soy’ for all kinds of terrible crimes against masculinity, ranging from wearing a shirt far-right people dislike to speaking up in defence of a woman. There’s also an element of anger towards veganism and vegetarianism, which often intersects with a dislike of ‘feminine’ traits. It’s used in a similar way to ‘cuck’, which, if you remember, really hit the mainstream last year. Here’s hoping ‘soy’ will take the same path as ‘cuck’, become widely known, and will be used to take the **** by the very people labelled ‘soy boys’ in the first place. These kinds of insults only work when they’re underground, insular, and the people the labels are thrown at aren’t in on the joke. Shine a light on the definition of ‘soy boy’ and you take away its power. Because really, who cares if you’re called ‘soy’ if all it means is ‘not meeting guidelines of masculinity defined by alt-right trolls who appear to be terrified of all things feminine’?”

https://metro.co.uk/2017/10/28/what-is- ... y-7034424/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[UpTheBeehole]

Will do if it means compulsory NS for everyone else

You'd also like Compulsory National Socialism too, judging by your posts