Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
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Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Judge Sir Peter Openshaw has this morning lifted the bar on prosecuting ex South Yorkshire police Ch Supt David Duckenfield; he will now be tried for 95 counts of manslaughter.
Also ruled that criminal charges will go ahead, to trial, against 4 more defendants: Graham Mackrell, Donald Denton, Alan Foster & Peter Metcalf.
The court hearing of Sir Norman Bettison's application to "stay" the charges against him has been adjourned, will be heard on August 21.
Also ruled that criminal charges will go ahead, to trial, against 4 more defendants: Graham Mackrell, Donald Denton, Alan Foster & Peter Metcalf.
The court hearing of Sir Norman Bettison's application to "stay" the charges against him has been adjourned, will be heard on August 21.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
95 not 96 as under the law at the time, there can be no prosecution for the death of Tony Bland, as he died more than a year and a day after his injuries were caused.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Tony Bland died almost four years later. Brain damage had left him in a vegetative state and was eventually allowed by the courts to die. But, as edison posted, the charge can't be brought regarding his death.edison wrote:95 not 96 as under the law at the time, there can be no prosecution for the death of Tony Bland, as he died more than a year and a day after his injuries were caused.
Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Just been reading Adrian Tempany's book, "And The Sun Shines Now" which looks at how Hillsborough changed football with the introduction of all seater stadia and the Premier league. Tempany was present at the FA Cup Semi-Final that day and was in pen 3 at the Leppings Lane end. He describes in harrowing detail what went on around him that afternoon. Recommended reading for anyone interested in recent football history and the way football has changed over the past 30 years.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
I wish they would let this lie. And yes if it was my family I would, both sides were to blame and I don't see what good finger pointing at this stage is going to come of this. Put it down to what it was, a tragic accident
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Police changing statements was not a tragic accident.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
They ought to prosecute like mad for the cover-up afterwards. But nothing about the cover-up caused the deaths of anyone.
There are strong doubts about whether it's appropriate to prosecute for manslaughter for making a single wrong decision which was only one of a series of wrong decisions. Other wrong decisions being:
1. The principle of being allowed to split terraces into vertical pens. (Without this, very many fewer than 95 would have died.)
2. The principle of being allowed to open gates and let people in free rather than make them wait patiently outside (it happened to us at least once, at Halifax, but smaller crowds and no tragedy. But Duckenfield was doing what had been done before as normal, albeit occasional, practice.)
3. The appointment of Duckenfield above his capabilities.
The problem with getting heads to roll for this situation is that there is a whole chain of heads that could be made to roll, starting from the Prime Minister downwards. The decision on who should bear the brunt can easily turn into a pass-the-buck-downwards till you find someone not powerful enough to pass it any further.
There are strong doubts about whether it's appropriate to prosecute for manslaughter for making a single wrong decision which was only one of a series of wrong decisions. Other wrong decisions being:
1. The principle of being allowed to split terraces into vertical pens. (Without this, very many fewer than 95 would have died.)
2. The principle of being allowed to open gates and let people in free rather than make them wait patiently outside (it happened to us at least once, at Halifax, but smaller crowds and no tragedy. But Duckenfield was doing what had been done before as normal, albeit occasional, practice.)
3. The appointment of Duckenfield above his capabilities.
The problem with getting heads to roll for this situation is that there is a whole chain of heads that could be made to roll, starting from the Prime Minister downwards. The decision on who should bear the brunt can easily turn into a pass-the-buck-downwards till you find someone not powerful enough to pass it any further.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Correct and those caught doing it should face punishment, however, the decisions made on the day, even if they turned out to be the wrong ones, we're made in good faithmikeS wrote:Police changing statements was not a tragic accident.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
My understanding is prosecution for manslaughter not fraud. I don't believe that the police went out that day to cause multiple deathsmikeS wrote:Police changing statements was not a tragic accident.
Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
They won't "let it lie" until they have completely disavowed the view that "both sides were to blame" - they weren't. Unless by both sides you mean the police and Sheffield Wednesday for having a ground not fit for purpose.1Simpleton wrote:I wish they would let this lie. And yes if it was my family I would, both sides were to blame and I don't see what good finger pointing at this stage is going to come of this. Put it down to what it was, a tragic accident
Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
I also feel that regardless of the outcome many of the families will never feel that justice has been served. It's gone on too long and caused too much pain.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Simpleton. Well if the name fits....
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
That is news to me and if true the person at fault should be held responsible for his actions.Foulthrow wrote:Didn't they prove that even if only ticket holders showed up they still couldn't possibly get everyone through the turnstiles in time - therefore crushing was always going to happen outside causing the gate to opened to relieve this problem.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
It is not about opinions it is about the law. It is not illegal to drink before a game or turn up without a ticket. The police however had a LEGAL duty of care in which they evidently failed. Hence legal proceedings will finally arrive for those who were legally responsible.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Unless people have “actually” been through the Leppins Lane turnstiles at a big match, then they won’t know that you will unaware that there are the two pens either side of the fatal middle pen.
If you were at our semi-final game against Newcastle like I was and the end for the first time then you are automatically drawn to that middle pen.
A desaster waiting to happen? A resounding yes!
But that doesn’t excuse the frankly irresponsible “senior” Police management on the day...and since.
If you were at our semi-final game against Newcastle like I was and the end for the first time then you are automatically drawn to that middle pen.
A desaster waiting to happen? A resounding yes!
But that doesn’t excuse the frankly irresponsible “senior” Police management on the day...and since.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
It's not disputed that the police had a legal duty of care, or that they failed because people died as a result of decisions taken by the police. But that doesn't necessarily mean prosecutions will follow. When you drive a car, you have a legal duty of care to basically everyone, but if you take a wrong decision that you could reasonably believe to have been right, you shouldn't be prosecuted.corporal jones wrote:It is not about opinions it is about the law. It is not illegal to drink before a game or turn up without a ticket. The police however had a LEGAL duty of care in which they evidently failed. Hence legal proceedings will finally arrive for those who were legally responsible.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
I'm never in favour of witch-hunts, but I don't know if that is the case here. You're of course right that there was a chain of terrible/reckless decisions which resulted in the disaster,and Duckenfield's own decisions and conduct are only one part of that chain. But nonetheless, the Inquest Verdicts in 2016 - the first time any judicial body has actually interrogated fully the full facts of the tragedy, because every single previous one has dealt with partial, and in some respects falsified, information - were extremely scathing of Duckenfield and came as close as they ever realistically could to advocating criminal charges against Duckenfield. Given the forensic evidence those inquests heard, I'm inclined to defer to their view.dsr wrote:They ought to prosecute like mad for the cover-up afterwards. But nothing about the cover-up caused the deaths of anyone.
There are strong doubts about whether it's appropriate to prosecute for manslaughter for making a single wrong decision which was only one of a series of wrong decisions. Other wrong decisions being:
1. The principle of being allowed to split terraces into vertical pens. (Without this, very many fewer than 95 would have died.)
2. The principle of being allowed to open gates and let people in free rather than make them wait patiently outside (it happened to us at least once, at Halifax, but smaller crowds and no tragedy. But Duckenfield was doing what had been done before as normal, albeit occasional, practice.)
3. The appointment of Duckenfield above his capabilities.
The problem with getting heads to roll for this situation is that there is a whole chain of heads that could be made to roll, starting from the Prime Minister downwards. The decision on who should bear the brunt can easily turn into a pass-the-buck-downwards till you find someone not powerful enough to pass it any further.
Its always been the case that someone in command of a situation can be held accountable for his actions, including in a crimimal capacity. No-one would wish it on anyone, but I suppose with responsibility and power comes accountability.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
And nor would you. I don't think that analogy gets off first base if I'm honest. Duckenfield isn't going to be tried just because he made decisions he believed to be right but which with hindsight proved to be wrong. The law doesn't expect folk to see the future with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Duckenfield is going to be charged because of a whole heap of failings not only in the decisions he took, but the way in which he took them, the way in which he prepared himself to be able to take them, and the way in which he reacted or failed to act having taken them.dsr wrote:It's not disputed that the police had a legal duty of care, or that they failed because people died as a result of decisions taken by the police. But that doesn't necessarily mean prosecutions will follow. When you drive a car, you have a legal duty of care to basically everyone, but if you take a wrong decision that you could reasonably believe to have been right, you shouldn't be prosecuted.
Of course, the fact he's been charged doesn't mean that he's necessarily guilty. It just means there's a case to answer.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
That's why it would be a manslaughter prosecution and not murder.1Simpleton wrote:My understanding is prosecution for manslaughter not fraud. I don't believe that the police went out that day to cause multiple deaths
I imagine it will be difficult to find a jury who haven't in some way read or heard about the disaster and pre-formed opinions of the events that day.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Duckenfield prosecuted? Well better late then never as they say.South West Claret. wrote:Unless people have “actually” been through the Leppins Lane turnstiles at a big match, then they won’t know that you will unaware that there are the two pens either side of the fatal middle pen.
If you were at our semi-final game against Newcastle like I was and the end for the first time then you are automatically drawn to that middle pen.
A desaster waiting to happen? A resounding yes!
But that doesn’t excuse the frankly irresponsible “senior” Police management on the day...and since.
Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
I think you're absolutely right there, including the bit I've underlined. And that's the bit I have doubts about, but his actions that led to the deaths are not affected by anything that happened afterwards. It's counter-intuitive, but IMO virtually all the criminal acts were after the tragedy.claretspice wrote:Duckenfield is going to be charged because of a whole heap of failings not only in the decisions he took, but the way in which he took them, the way in which he prepared himself to be able to take them, and the way in which he reacted or failed to act having taken them.
Of course, the fact he's been charged doesn't mean that he's necessarily guilty. It just means there's a case to answer.
If he'd held his hands up and said what a tragedy, what a mistake, and honourably resigned as he ought to have done, I doubt there would have been prosecutions and at least the whole sad event could have been laid to rest with the bodies. The cover-up just added to the first tragedy by causing all sorts of other heartache and trouble, and that's the bit he (and others) did with absolute criminal intent.
Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
The police were overwhelmed and they thought a wall outside would collapse given the pressure of people. The simple things would have prevented the disaster. Delaying the kick off. Closing the middle section when it was obvious it was full . A competent match commander would have done this. The FA have guilt as they gave Forest the kop. SWFC didn't have a safety licence.Liverpool fans without tickets trying to force their way in are culpable in my opinion as well. They still do it.
I don't think one man should be made a scapegoat but it looks as though he is carrying the can for all the contributing parties.
I don't think one man should be made a scapegoat but it looks as though he is carrying the can for all the contributing parties.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
I meant the way in which he acted or failed to act in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy, as it was still unfolding, which from what I've read did make the difference between life and death in a significant number of instances (if not all) - there was a period when the circumstances which gave rise to the tragedy had happened, but the consequences were not set in stone. As I say, the inquest verdicts (as well as the previous commission's report, to which less weight should be given) are really the most relevant body of testimony here and I don't think they support your conclusion.dsr wrote:I think you're absolutely right there, including the bit I've underlined. And that's the bit I have doubts about, but his actions that led to the deaths are not affected by anything that happened afterwards. It's counter-intuitive, but IMO virtually all the criminal acts were after the tragedy.
If he'd held his hands up and said what a tragedy, what a mistake, and honourably resigned as he ought to have done, I doubt there would have been prosecutions and at least the whole sad event could have been laid to rest with the bodies. The cover-up just added to the first tragedy by causing all sorts of other heartache and trouble, and that's the bit he (and others) did with absolute criminal intent.
I didn't mean the reprehensible events that followed, which I agree need to be treated separately.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Duckenfield had never policed a game at Hillborough before, just let that sink in for a minute, he was over promoted, and out of his depth, whoever put him in charge is just as guilty as he is. No doubt those in charge are all dead by now.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
[quote="claretandy"]Duckenfield had never policed a game at Hillborough before, just let that sink in for a minute, he was over promoted, and out of his depth, whoever put him in charge is just as guilty as he is. No doubt those in charge are all dead by now.[/quote
Have his defence legals not tried that one already?
Have his defence legals not tried that one already?
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
I tend to agree. Sadly there's been plenty of tragedies, on a small and large scale which haven't led to manslaughter prosecutions. I honestly don't believe this would have done either 30 years ago if they'd have been straight about it. Bearing in mind his inexperience, the state of the stadium etc. But the deceit and arrogance from them since makes me hope they get everything coming to them, if that's what the jury decides of course.dsr wrote:If he'd held his hands up and said what a tragedy, what a mistake, and honourably resigned as he ought to have done, I doubt there would have been prosecutions and at least the whole sad event could have been laid to rest with the bodies. The cover-up just added to the first tragedy by causing all sorts of other heartache and trouble, and that's the bit he (and others) did with absolute criminal intent.
Shame the Orgreave inquest never got the green light too. They lied through their teeth there also.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
I'D say the cover up was definitely more serious then the alleged crime, more cock up than crime.NottsClaret wrote:I tend to agree. Sadly there's been plenty of tragedies, on a small and large scale which haven't led to manslaughter prosecutions. I honestly don't believe this would have done either 30 years ago if they'd have been straight about it. Bearing in mind his inexperience, the state of the stadium etc. But the deceit and arrogance from them since makes me hope they get everything coming to them, if that's what the jury decides of course.
Shame the Orgreave inquest never got the green light too. They lied through their teeth there also.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Other countries charge those in command immediately. No ifs, no buts, no cover-ups.
It's just a shame that the incompetent and corrupt people will not be punished. They'll get off.
It's just a shame that the incompetent and corrupt people will not be punished. They'll get off.
Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Different times and different ethics. Not sure what bringing charges after so long will achieve but they certainly should have been charged with the cover up long ago.
Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Duckenfield was a freemason and it has been alledged he was promoted above more able people because of the freemason link in thr police force.
It was also his first time in charge at a football match and it will be interesting to see what research he did to acquaint himself with the ground and occasion before hand.
It will also be interesting to see if the comments made elsewhere that he was attending at a match hospitality lunch when he gave the order to open the gates.
Others should be charged too,but I have always thought Duckenfield should have been charged with manslaughter from day one,
The lies and coverups since has made me more convinced that he should finally get his just deserts
It was also his first time in charge at a football match and it will be interesting to see what research he did to acquaint himself with the ground and occasion before hand.
It will also be interesting to see if the comments made elsewhere that he was attending at a match hospitality lunch when he gave the order to open the gates.
Others should be charged too,but I have always thought Duckenfield should have been charged with manslaughter from day one,
The lies and coverups since has made me more convinced that he should finally get his just deserts
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
I doubt there will be prosecutions for those in government who put high fences around the pitches.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
2paulatky wrote:Duckenfield was a freemason and it has been alledged he was promoted above more able people because of the freemason link in thr police force.
It was also his first time in charge at a football match and it will be interesting to see what research he did to acquaint himself with the ground and occasion before hand.
It will also be interesting to see if the comments made elsewhere that he was attending at a match hospitality lunch when he gave the order to open the gates.
Others should be charged too,but I have always thought Duckenfield should have been charged with manslaughter from day one,
The lies and coverups since has made me more convinced that he should finally get his just deserts
Well if thats been alledged then dispense with a trial and string him up.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
No one wins or gains closure from a manslaughter conviction. A horrible sad state of affairs from start to finish
Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
I think had it not been for the persistence of the Hillsborough Families and their supporters
then I suspect the whole matter will have been 'brushed under the carpet'.
Clearly major operational mistakes were made before and on that tragic day.
But the fact that the Police tried to cover-up, change statements afterwards has to be
indefensible. Surely.
For something like that to happen after so many innocent people had lost their lives
is not acceptable, and in my opinion, a criminal offence.
If memory serves me well thenthe initial blame was placed on the Liverpool fans
and that was supported by some of the media too.
'Drunken louts, without tickets' creating serious congestion outside the ground
was the basis of their argument/beliefs.
That was an absolute disgrace as well but doubt if any of those involved
may also be retrospectively prosecuted.
then I suspect the whole matter will have been 'brushed under the carpet'.
Clearly major operational mistakes were made before and on that tragic day.
But the fact that the Police tried to cover-up, change statements afterwards has to be
indefensible. Surely.
For something like that to happen after so many innocent people had lost their lives
is not acceptable, and in my opinion, a criminal offence.
If memory serves me well thenthe initial blame was placed on the Liverpool fans
and that was supported by some of the media too.
'Drunken louts, without tickets' creating serious congestion outside the ground
was the basis of their argument/beliefs.
That was an absolute disgrace as well but doubt if any of those involved
may also be retrospectively prosecuted.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
when ever this all comes up,it makes me realise,the 1974 FA Cup Semi Final,versus Newcastle,my uncle took me,we felt crushed and frightened in the Burnley Away End that day,walking through that tunnel,onto the terraces,when that happend,it sent shivers down my spine,So So Sad.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Police need sorting for the cover up but still the root cause, those who went there without tickets, get away scott free. Hope they can sleep at night.
Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
You’re right, SWC.South West Claret. wrote:Unless people have “actually” been through the Leppins Lane turnstiles at a big match, then they won’t know that you will unaware that there are the two pens either side of the fatal middle pen.
If you were at our semi-final game against Newcastle like I was and the end for the first time then you are automatically drawn to that middle pen.
A desaster waiting to happen? A resounding yes!
But that doesn’t excuse the frankly irresponsible “senior” Police management on the day...and since.
The layout of that end was a disaster waiting to happen. Yet it waould have been so simple to sort by putting officers on the tunnel to guide folk to either end. It was bad enough that day in 1974 but with the metal pens, especially the ones going down the terracing, it became a death trap.
I think there are too many factors involved in the cause of the disaster, and too many years gone by, to bring a prosecution. Also, he will now be prosecuted with today’s attitudes and opinions to health, safety, etc instead of the attitudes and opinions prevalent in the 1980s.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Just seen this as well Claret
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media ... 169787.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That pic is from 1981 when Spurs fans we’re relieved from the Leppings Lane end after overcrowding, which just compounds the disaster in 89!
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media ... 169787.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That pic is from 1981 when Spurs fans we’re relieved from the Leppings Lane end after overcrowding, which just compounds the disaster in 89!
Last edited by South West Claret. on Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
How do people still believe this?basil6345789 wrote:Police need sorting for the cover up but still the root cause, those who went there without tickets, get away scott free. Hope they can sleep at night.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
I wasn’t there so I can’t comment on that particular instance. However it was common for people coming in late just shoving to get to see. It was scarey at times. And fun in a weird way. I was in that end with my Dad when we played Newcastle. People shoved whenever anything significant happened. It was common. Sometimes it was a lot worse than others. Are the people shoving blameless? I don’t know but if they didn’t shove then this doesn’t happen... the fact it was common practice doesn’t totAlly excuse it no matter how incompetent and cintributary the police were.Tall Paul wrote:How do people still believe this?
Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
There is no doubt there were people there with no tickets... I know some, plus at that time every big club had fans who turned up for big games without tickets... How many turned up that day we will never knowTall Paul wrote:How do people still believe this?
Somebody posted that Liverpool fans still do it today, the post was removed, however if the editor of this site speaks to his contacts at the club, I can guarantee 100% that plans are in place at our home games to prevent rushes at the turnstiles by ticketless fans, Blackburn had the same plans in place when they were in the Premier league.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
I don't doubt that there were Liverpool supporters there without tickets, but the recent inquiry concluded that they did not contribute to the disaster.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
The BBC did a fantastic feature length documentary on Hillsborough a couple of years ago which dispells some myths and uncovers major flaws in the policing of the game. Dukenfield didn't even familiarise himself with the ground or it's layout until the match day, despite being offered access and it being his 1st match in command
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Link to the BBC documentary
https://youtu.be/d_PA7YlJAHY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some of the information uncovered is breathtaking imo
https://youtu.be/d_PA7YlJAHY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some of the information uncovered is breathtaking imo
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
It's absolutely staggering that people still can't get their heads round this fact.Tall Paul wrote:I don't doubt that there were Liverpool supporters there without tickets, but the recent inquiry concluded that they did not contribute to the disaster.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
It's why I've posted the link to the documentary CT.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Yes very depressing. People of that mindset really ought to watch the BBC documentary linked aboveClaretTony wrote:It's absolutely staggering that people still can't get their heads round this fact.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
Hence manslaughter. Your username doesn't lie does it?1Simpleton wrote:My understanding is prosecution for manslaughter not fraud. I don't believe that the police went out that day to cause multiple deaths
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
A documentary can put any slant onto a situation it wants. Over many years a myth has grown up about Liverpool fans being happy ,jovial Jimmy Tarbuck type characters when a sizeable percentage are knife wielding thugs.The aftermatch walk in the dark across Stanley Park was never one for the faint hearted.JohnDearyMe wrote:Yes very depressing. People of that mindset really ought to watch the BBC documentary linked above
Large numbers of fans turning up just before kickoff many the worse for drink and many without tickets must have contributed to the crush outside the ground which forced the decision to open the gates.This is no excuse for the behaviour of the police on the day and the years to come .
A tragic day which hopefully will not be repeated.
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Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news
No it must not have contributed - it didn't contribute.Lord Rothbury wrote:Large numbers of fans turning up just before kickoff many the worse for drink and many without tickets must have contributed to the crush outside the ground which forced the decision to open the gates.
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