Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
ClaretTony
Posts: 67422
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:07 pm
Been Liked: 32237 times
Has Liked: 5253 times
Location: Burnley
Contact:

Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:52 am

Judge Sir Peter Openshaw has this morning lifted the bar on prosecuting ex South Yorkshire police Ch Supt David Duckenfield; he will now be tried for 95 counts of manslaughter.

Also ruled that criminal charges will go ahead, to trial, against 4 more defendants: Graham Mackrell, Donald Denton, Alan Foster & Peter Metcalf.

The court hearing of Sir Norman Bettison's application to "stay" the charges against him has been adjourned, will be heard on August 21.
This user liked this post: elwaclaret

edison
Posts: 1168
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:56 pm
Been Liked: 345 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by edison » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:24 am

95 not 96 as under the law at the time, there can be no prosecution for the death of Tony Bland, as he died more than a year and a day after his injuries were caused.

ClaretTony
Posts: 67422
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:07 pm
Been Liked: 32237 times
Has Liked: 5253 times
Location: Burnley
Contact:

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:34 am

edison wrote:95 not 96 as under the law at the time, there can be no prosecution for the death of Tony Bland, as he died more than a year and a day after his injuries were caused.
Tony Bland died almost four years later. Brain damage had left him in a vegetative state and was eventually allowed by the courts to die. But, as edison posted, the charge can't be brought regarding his death.

mikeS
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:21 am
Been Liked: 650 times
Has Liked: 25 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by mikeS » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:51 am

Just been reading Adrian Tempany's book, "And The Sun Shines Now" which looks at how Hillsborough changed football with the introduction of all seater stadia and the Premier league. Tempany was present at the FA Cup Semi-Final that day and was in pen 3 at the Leppings Lane end. He describes in harrowing detail what went on around him that afternoon. Recommended reading for anyone interested in recent football history and the way football has changed over the past 30 years.

1Simpleton
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:01 pm
Been Liked: 21 times
Has Liked: 14 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by 1Simpleton » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:54 am

I wish they would let this lie. And yes if it was my family I would, both sides were to blame and I don't see what good finger pointing at this stage is going to come of this. Put it down to what it was, a tragic accident
These 3 users liked this post: gandhisflipflop claretfern Firthy

mikeS
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:21 am
Been Liked: 650 times
Has Liked: 25 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by mikeS » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:57 am

Police changing statements was not a tragic accident.
These 4 users liked this post: piston broke longsidepies evensteadiereddie elwaclaret

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:09 pm

They ought to prosecute like mad for the cover-up afterwards. But nothing about the cover-up caused the deaths of anyone.

There are strong doubts about whether it's appropriate to prosecute for manslaughter for making a single wrong decision which was only one of a series of wrong decisions. Other wrong decisions being:

1. The principle of being allowed to split terraces into vertical pens. (Without this, very many fewer than 95 would have died.)
2. The principle of being allowed to open gates and let people in free rather than make them wait patiently outside (it happened to us at least once, at Halifax, but smaller crowds and no tragedy. But Duckenfield was doing what had been done before as normal, albeit occasional, practice.)
3. The appointment of Duckenfield above his capabilities.

The problem with getting heads to roll for this situation is that there is a whole chain of heads that could be made to roll, starting from the Prime Minister downwards. The decision on who should bear the brunt can easily turn into a pass-the-buck-downwards till you find someone not powerful enough to pass it any further.
This user liked this post: chekhov

Grumps
Posts: 4145
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:15 am
Been Liked: 954 times
Has Liked: 359 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by Grumps » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:12 pm

mikeS wrote:Police changing statements was not a tragic accident.
Correct and those caught doing it should face punishment, however, the decisions made on the day, even if they turned out to be the wrong ones, we're made in good faith

1Simpleton
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:01 pm
Been Liked: 21 times
Has Liked: 14 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by 1Simpleton » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:12 pm

mikeS wrote:Police changing statements was not a tragic accident.
My understanding is prosecution for manslaughter not fraud. I don't believe that the police went out that day to cause multiple deaths

Foulthrow
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:48 am
Been Liked: 699 times
Has Liked: 1518 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by Foulthrow » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:13 pm

1Simpleton wrote:I wish they would let this lie. And yes if it was my family I would, both sides were to blame and I don't see what good finger pointing at this stage is going to come of this. Put it down to what it was, a tragic accident
They won't "let it lie" until they have completely disavowed the view that "both sides were to blame" - they weren't. Unless by both sides you mean the police and Sheffield Wednesday for having a ground not fit for purpose.

Foulthrow
Posts: 2283
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:48 am
Been Liked: 699 times
Has Liked: 1518 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by Foulthrow » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:14 pm

I also feel that regardless of the outcome many of the families will never feel that justice has been served. It's gone on too long and caused too much pain.

corporal jones
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:31 pm
Been Liked: 96 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by corporal jones » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:21 pm

Simpleton. Well if the name fits....

piston broke
Posts: 5548
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:40 pm
Been Liked: 1447 times
Has Liked: 1229 times
Location: Ferkham Hall

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by piston broke » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:27 pm

Foulthrow wrote:Didn't they prove that even if only ticket holders showed up they still couldn't possibly get everyone through the turnstiles in time - therefore crushing was always going to happen outside causing the gate to opened to relieve this problem.
That is news to me and if true the person at fault should be held responsible for his actions.

corporal jones
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:31 pm
Been Liked: 96 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by corporal jones » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:34 pm

It is not about opinions it is about the law. It is not illegal to drink before a game or turn up without a ticket. The police however had a LEGAL duty of care in which they evidently failed. Hence legal proceedings will finally arrive for those who were legally responsible.
This user liked this post: South West Claret.

South West Claret.
Posts: 5642
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:55 pm
Been Liked: 766 times
Has Liked: 499 times
Location: Devon

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by South West Claret. » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:46 pm

Unless people have “actually” been through the Leppins Lane turnstiles at a big match, then they won’t know that you will unaware that there are the two pens either side of the fatal middle pen.

If you were at our semi-final game against Newcastle like I was and the end for the first time then you are automatically drawn to that middle pen.

A desaster waiting to happen? A resounding yes!

But that doesn’t excuse the frankly irresponsible “senior” Police management on the day...and since.
This user liked this post: Claret

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:51 pm

corporal jones wrote:It is not about opinions it is about the law. It is not illegal to drink before a game or turn up without a ticket. The police however had a LEGAL duty of care in which they evidently failed. Hence legal proceedings will finally arrive for those who were legally responsible.
It's not disputed that the police had a legal duty of care, or that they failed because people died as a result of decisions taken by the police. But that doesn't necessarily mean prosecutions will follow. When you drive a car, you have a legal duty of care to basically everyone, but if you take a wrong decision that you could reasonably believe to have been right, you shouldn't be prosecuted.

claretspice
Posts: 5660
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:13 am
Been Liked: 2801 times
Has Liked: 138 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by claretspice » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:54 pm

dsr wrote:They ought to prosecute like mad for the cover-up afterwards. But nothing about the cover-up caused the deaths of anyone.

There are strong doubts about whether it's appropriate to prosecute for manslaughter for making a single wrong decision which was only one of a series of wrong decisions. Other wrong decisions being:

1. The principle of being allowed to split terraces into vertical pens. (Without this, very many fewer than 95 would have died.)
2. The principle of being allowed to open gates and let people in free rather than make them wait patiently outside (it happened to us at least once, at Halifax, but smaller crowds and no tragedy. But Duckenfield was doing what had been done before as normal, albeit occasional, practice.)
3. The appointment of Duckenfield above his capabilities.

The problem with getting heads to roll for this situation is that there is a whole chain of heads that could be made to roll, starting from the Prime Minister downwards. The decision on who should bear the brunt can easily turn into a pass-the-buck-downwards till you find someone not powerful enough to pass it any further.
I'm never in favour of witch-hunts, but I don't know if that is the case here. You're of course right that there was a chain of terrible/reckless decisions which resulted in the disaster,and Duckenfield's own decisions and conduct are only one part of that chain. But nonetheless, the Inquest Verdicts in 2016 - the first time any judicial body has actually interrogated fully the full facts of the tragedy, because every single previous one has dealt with partial, and in some respects falsified, information - were extremely scathing of Duckenfield and came as close as they ever realistically could to advocating criminal charges against Duckenfield. Given the forensic evidence those inquests heard, I'm inclined to defer to their view.

Its always been the case that someone in command of a situation can be held accountable for his actions, including in a crimimal capacity. No-one would wish it on anyone, but I suppose with responsibility and power comes accountability.
This user liked this post: Sausage

claretspice
Posts: 5660
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:13 am
Been Liked: 2801 times
Has Liked: 138 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by claretspice » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:58 pm

dsr wrote:It's not disputed that the police had a legal duty of care, or that they failed because people died as a result of decisions taken by the police. But that doesn't necessarily mean prosecutions will follow. When you drive a car, you have a legal duty of care to basically everyone, but if you take a wrong decision that you could reasonably believe to have been right, you shouldn't be prosecuted.
And nor would you. I don't think that analogy gets off first base if I'm honest. Duckenfield isn't going to be tried just because he made decisions he believed to be right but which with hindsight proved to be wrong. The law doesn't expect folk to see the future with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Duckenfield is going to be charged because of a whole heap of failings not only in the decisions he took, but the way in which he took them, the way in which he prepared himself to be able to take them, and the way in which he reacted or failed to act having taken them.

Of course, the fact he's been charged doesn't mean that he's necessarily guilty. It just means there's a case to answer.
This user liked this post: Sausage

TheFamilyCat
Posts: 10839
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
Been Liked: 5516 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by TheFamilyCat » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:12 pm

1Simpleton wrote:My understanding is prosecution for manslaughter not fraud. I don't believe that the police went out that day to cause multiple deaths
That's why it would be a manslaughter prosecution and not murder.

I imagine it will be difficult to find a jury who haven't in some way read or heard about the disaster and pre-formed opinions of the events that day.

South West Claret.
Posts: 5642
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:55 pm
Been Liked: 766 times
Has Liked: 499 times
Location: Devon

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by South West Claret. » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:25 pm

South West Claret. wrote:Unless people have “actually” been through the Leppins Lane turnstiles at a big match, then they won’t know that you will unaware that there are the two pens either side of the fatal middle pen.

If you were at our semi-final game against Newcastle like I was and the end for the first time then you are automatically drawn to that middle pen.

A desaster waiting to happen? A resounding yes!

But that doesn’t excuse the frankly irresponsible “senior” Police management on the day...and since.
Duckenfield prosecuted? Well better late then never as they say.

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:30 pm

claretspice wrote:Duckenfield is going to be charged because of a whole heap of failings not only in the decisions he took, but the way in which he took them, the way in which he prepared himself to be able to take them, and the way in which he reacted or failed to act having taken them.

Of course, the fact he's been charged doesn't mean that he's necessarily guilty. It just means there's a case to answer.
I think you're absolutely right there, including the bit I've underlined. And that's the bit I have doubts about, but his actions that led to the deaths are not affected by anything that happened afterwards. It's counter-intuitive, but IMO virtually all the criminal acts were after the tragedy.

If he'd held his hands up and said what a tragedy, what a mistake, and honourably resigned as he ought to have done, I doubt there would have been prosecutions and at least the whole sad event could have been laid to rest with the bodies. The cover-up just added to the first tragedy by causing all sorts of other heartache and trouble, and that's the bit he (and others) did with absolute criminal intent.

bfcjg
Posts: 13151
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:17 pm
Been Liked: 5000 times
Has Liked: 6715 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by bfcjg » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:31 pm

The police were overwhelmed and they thought a wall outside would collapse given the pressure of people. The simple things would have prevented the disaster. Delaying the kick off. Closing the middle section when it was obvious it was full . A competent match commander would have done this. The FA have guilt as they gave Forest the kop. SWFC didn't have a safety licence.Liverpool fans without tickets trying to force their way in are culpable in my opinion as well. They still do it.
I don't think one man should be made a scapegoat but it looks as though he is carrying the can for all the contributing parties.

claretspice
Posts: 5660
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:13 am
Been Liked: 2801 times
Has Liked: 138 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by claretspice » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:03 pm

dsr wrote:I think you're absolutely right there, including the bit I've underlined. And that's the bit I have doubts about, but his actions that led to the deaths are not affected by anything that happened afterwards. It's counter-intuitive, but IMO virtually all the criminal acts were after the tragedy.

If he'd held his hands up and said what a tragedy, what a mistake, and honourably resigned as he ought to have done, I doubt there would have been prosecutions and at least the whole sad event could have been laid to rest with the bodies. The cover-up just added to the first tragedy by causing all sorts of other heartache and trouble, and that's the bit he (and others) did with absolute criminal intent.
I meant the way in which he acted or failed to act in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy, as it was still unfolding, which from what I've read did make the difference between life and death in a significant number of instances (if not all) - there was a period when the circumstances which gave rise to the tragedy had happened, but the consequences were not set in stone. As I say, the inquest verdicts (as well as the previous commission's report, to which less weight should be given) are really the most relevant body of testimony here and I don't think they support your conclusion.

I didn't mean the reprehensible events that followed, which I agree need to be treated separately.

claretandy
Posts: 4751
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 953 times
Has Liked: 238 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by claretandy » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:11 pm

Duckenfield had never policed a game at Hillborough before, just let that sink in for a minute, he was over promoted, and out of his depth, whoever put him in charge is just as guilty as he is. No doubt those in charge are all dead by now.

South West Claret.
Posts: 5642
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:55 pm
Been Liked: 766 times
Has Liked: 499 times
Location: Devon

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by South West Claret. » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:45 pm

[quote="claretandy"]Duckenfield had never policed a game at Hillborough before, just let that sink in for a minute, he was over promoted, and out of his depth, whoever put him in charge is just as guilty as he is. No doubt those in charge are all dead by now.[/quote


Have his defence legals not tried that one already?

NottsClaret
Posts: 3576
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 2588 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by NottsClaret » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:57 pm

dsr wrote:If he'd held his hands up and said what a tragedy, what a mistake, and honourably resigned as he ought to have done, I doubt there would have been prosecutions and at least the whole sad event could have been laid to rest with the bodies. The cover-up just added to the first tragedy by causing all sorts of other heartache and trouble, and that's the bit he (and others) did with absolute criminal intent.
I tend to agree. Sadly there's been plenty of tragedies, on a small and large scale which haven't led to manslaughter prosecutions. I honestly don't believe this would have done either 30 years ago if they'd have been straight about it. Bearing in mind his inexperience, the state of the stadium etc. But the deceit and arrogance from them since makes me hope they get everything coming to them, if that's what the jury decides of course.

Shame the Orgreave inquest never got the green light too. They lied through their teeth there also.
These 2 users liked this post: South West Claret. longsidepies

claretandy
Posts: 4751
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 953 times
Has Liked: 238 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by claretandy » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:31 pm

NottsClaret wrote:I tend to agree. Sadly there's been plenty of tragedies, on a small and large scale which haven't led to manslaughter prosecutions. I honestly don't believe this would have done either 30 years ago if they'd have been straight about it. Bearing in mind his inexperience, the state of the stadium etc. But the deceit and arrogance from them since makes me hope they get everything coming to them, if that's what the jury decides of course.

Shame the Orgreave inquest never got the green light too. They lied through their teeth there also.
I'D say the cover up was definitely more serious then the alleged crime, more cock up than crime.

evensteadiereddie
Posts: 9585
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 pm
Been Liked: 3146 times
Has Liked: 10202 times
Location: Staffordshire

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by evensteadiereddie » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:40 pm

Other countries charge those in command immediately. No ifs, no buts, no cover-ups.

It's just a shame that the incompetent and corrupt people will not be punished. They'll get off.

FCBurnley
Posts: 9695
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:56 pm
Been Liked: 1967 times
Has Liked: 1132 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by FCBurnley » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:54 pm

Different times and different ethics. Not sure what bringing charges after so long will achieve but they certainly should have been charged with the cover up long ago.

paulatky
Posts: 1441
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:25 am
Been Liked: 220 times
Has Liked: 772 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by paulatky » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:21 pm

Duckenfield was a freemason and it has been alledged he was promoted above more able people because of the freemason link in thr police force.
It was also his first time in charge at a football match and it will be interesting to see what research he did to acquaint himself with the ground and occasion before hand.

It will also be interesting to see if the comments made elsewhere that he was attending at a match hospitality lunch when he gave the order to open the gates.

Others should be charged too,but I have always thought Duckenfield should have been charged with manslaughter from day one,
The lies and coverups since has made me more convinced that he should finally get his just deserts

dougcollins
Posts: 6586
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:23 am
Been Liked: 1778 times
Has Liked: 1773 times
Location: Yarkshire

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by dougcollins » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:29 pm

I doubt there will be prosecutions for those in government who put high fences around the pitches.
This user liked this post: tim_noone

Rumbletonk
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:25 pm
Been Liked: 313 times
Has Liked: 285 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by Rumbletonk » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:29 pm

paulatky wrote:Duckenfield was a freemason and it has been alledged he was promoted above more able people because of the freemason link in thr police force.
It was also his first time in charge at a football match and it will be interesting to see what research he did to acquaint himself with the ground and occasion before hand.

It will also be interesting to see if the comments made elsewhere that he was attending at a match hospitality lunch when he gave the order to open the gates.

Others should be charged too,but I have always thought Duckenfield should have been charged with manslaughter from day one,
The lies and coverups since has made me more convinced that he should finally get his just deserts
2

Well if thats been alledged then dispense with a trial and string him up.

Rumbletonk
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:25 pm
Been Liked: 313 times
Has Liked: 285 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by Rumbletonk » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:32 pm

No one wins or gains closure from a manslaughter conviction. A horrible sad state of affairs from start to finish

jurek
Posts: 1790
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:38 pm
Been Liked: 309 times
Has Liked: 3 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by jurek » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:41 pm

I think had it not been for the persistence of the Hillsborough Families and their supporters
then I suspect the whole matter will have been 'brushed under the carpet'.

Clearly major operational mistakes were made before and on that tragic day.
But the fact that the Police tried to cover-up, change statements afterwards has to be
indefensible. Surely.

For something like that to happen after so many innocent people had lost their lives
is not acceptable, and in my opinion, a criminal offence.

If memory serves me well thenthe initial blame was placed on the Liverpool fans
and that was supported by some of the media too.
'Drunken louts, without tickets' creating serious congestion outside the ground
was the basis of their argument/beliefs.

That was an absolute disgrace as well but doubt if any of those involved
may also be retrospectively prosecuted.
These 2 users liked this post: evensteadiereddie JohnDearyMe

k90bfc
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:15 pm
Been Liked: 114 times
Has Liked: 5445 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by k90bfc » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:27 pm

when ever this all comes up,it makes me realise,the 1974 FA Cup Semi Final,versus Newcastle,my uncle took me,we felt crushed and frightened in the Burnley Away End that day,walking through that tunnel,onto the terraces,when that happend,it sent shivers down my spine,So So Sad.
This user liked this post: dougcollins

basil6345789
Posts: 2703
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:22 pm
Been Liked: 481 times
Has Liked: 2289 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by basil6345789 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:40 pm

Police need sorting for the cover up but still the root cause, those who went there without tickets, get away scott free. Hope they can sleep at night.

Claret
Posts: 1215
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:57 pm
Been Liked: 400 times
Has Liked: 655 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by Claret » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:51 pm

South West Claret. wrote:Unless people have “actually” been through the Leppins Lane turnstiles at a big match, then they won’t know that you will unaware that there are the two pens either side of the fatal middle pen.

If you were at our semi-final game against Newcastle like I was and the end for the first time then you are automatically drawn to that middle pen.

A desaster waiting to happen? A resounding yes!

But that doesn’t excuse the frankly irresponsible “senior” Police management on the day...and since.
You’re right, SWC.
The layout of that end was a disaster waiting to happen. Yet it waould have been so simple to sort by putting officers on the tunnel to guide folk to either end. It was bad enough that day in 1974 but with the metal pens, especially the ones going down the terracing, it became a death trap.
I think there are too many factors involved in the cause of the disaster, and too many years gone by, to bring a prosecution. Also, he will now be prosecuted with today’s attitudes and opinions to health, safety, etc instead of the attitudes and opinions prevalent in the 1980s.
This user liked this post: South West Claret.

South West Claret.
Posts: 5642
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:55 pm
Been Liked: 766 times
Has Liked: 499 times
Location: Devon

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by South West Claret. » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:28 pm

Just seen this as well Claret

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media ... 169787.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That pic is from 1981 when Spurs fans we’re relieved from the Leppings Lane end after overcrowding, which just compounds the disaster in 89!
Last edited by South West Claret. on Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tall Paul
Posts: 7170
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:07 am
Been Liked: 2560 times
Has Liked: 690 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by Tall Paul » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:37 pm

basil6345789 wrote:Police need sorting for the cover up but still the root cause, those who went there without tickets, get away scott free. Hope they can sleep at night.
How do people still believe this?
These 3 users liked this post: ClaretTony THEWELLERNUT70 JohnDearyMe

andyh
Posts: 1385
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:27 am
Been Liked: 483 times
Has Liked: 102 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by andyh » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:21 am

Tall Paul wrote:How do people still believe this?
I wasn’t there so I can’t comment on that particular instance. However it was common for people coming in late just shoving to get to see. It was scarey at times. And fun in a weird way. I was in that end with my Dad when we played Newcastle. People shoved whenever anything significant happened. It was common. Sometimes it was a lot worse than others. Are the people shoving blameless? I don’t know but if they didn’t shove then this doesn’t happen... the fact it was common practice doesn’t totAlly excuse it no matter how incompetent and cintributary the police were.

Grumps
Posts: 4145
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:15 am
Been Liked: 954 times
Has Liked: 359 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by Grumps » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:36 am

Tall Paul wrote:How do people still believe this?
There is no doubt there were people there with no tickets... I know some, plus at that time every big club had fans who turned up for big games without tickets... How many turned up that day we will never know
Somebody posted that Liverpool fans still do it today, the post was removed, however if the editor of this site speaks to his contacts at the club, I can guarantee 100% that plans are in place at our home games to prevent rushes at the turnstiles by ticketless fans, Blackburn had the same plans in place when they were in the Premier league.
This user liked this post: bfcjg

Tall Paul
Posts: 7170
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:07 am
Been Liked: 2560 times
Has Liked: 690 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by Tall Paul » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:01 am

I don't doubt that there were Liverpool supporters there without tickets, but the recent inquiry concluded that they did not contribute to the disaster.
This user liked this post: JohnDearyMe

THEWELLERNUT70
Posts: 3382
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:13 pm
Been Liked: 997 times
Has Liked: 2007 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by THEWELLERNUT70 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:14 am

The BBC did a fantastic feature length documentary on Hillsborough a couple of years ago which dispells some myths and uncovers major flaws in the policing of the game. Dukenfield didn't even familiarise himself with the ground or it's layout until the match day, despite being offered access and it being his 1st match in command

THEWELLERNUT70
Posts: 3382
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:13 pm
Been Liked: 997 times
Has Liked: 2007 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by THEWELLERNUT70 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:17 am

Link to the BBC documentary

https://youtu.be/d_PA7YlJAHY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some of the information uncovered is breathtaking imo
This user liked this post: South West Claret.

ClaretTony
Posts: 67422
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:07 pm
Been Liked: 32237 times
Has Liked: 5253 times
Location: Burnley
Contact:

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by ClaretTony » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:26 am

Tall Paul wrote:I don't doubt that there were Liverpool supporters there without tickets, but the recent inquiry concluded that they did not contribute to the disaster.
It's absolutely staggering that people still can't get their heads round this fact.
These 3 users liked this post: THEWELLERNUT70 JohnDearyMe South West Claret.

THEWELLERNUT70
Posts: 3382
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:13 pm
Been Liked: 997 times
Has Liked: 2007 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by THEWELLERNUT70 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:37 am

It's why I've posted the link to the documentary CT.
These 2 users liked this post: JohnDearyMe South West Claret.

JohnDearyMe
Posts: 2723
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:31 pm
Been Liked: 666 times
Has Liked: 2041 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by JohnDearyMe » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:32 am

ClaretTony wrote:It's absolutely staggering that people still can't get their heads round this fact.
Yes very depressing. People of that mindset really ought to watch the BBC documentary linked above
This user liked this post: South West Claret.

ŽižkovClaret
Posts: 6956
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:50 pm
Been Liked: 2143 times
Has Liked: 3060 times
Location: Praha
Contact:

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:35 am

1Simpleton wrote:My understanding is prosecution for manslaughter not fraud. I don't believe that the police went out that day to cause multiple deaths
Hence manslaughter. Your username doesn't lie does it?

Lord Rothbury
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:44 am
Been Liked: 133 times
Has Liked: 68 times

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by Lord Rothbury » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:33 pm

JohnDearyMe wrote:Yes very depressing. People of that mindset really ought to watch the BBC documentary linked above
A documentary can put any slant onto a situation it wants. Over many years a myth has grown up about Liverpool fans being happy ,jovial Jimmy Tarbuck type characters when a sizeable percentage are knife wielding thugs.The aftermatch walk in the dark across Stanley Park was never one for the faint hearted.

Large numbers of fans turning up just before kickoff many the worse for drink and many without tickets must have contributed to the crush outside the ground which forced the decision to open the gates.This is no excuse for the behaviour of the police on the day and the years to come .

A tragic day which hopefully will not be repeated.

ClaretTony
Posts: 67422
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:07 pm
Been Liked: 32237 times
Has Liked: 5253 times
Location: Burnley
Contact:

Re: Hillsborough 1989 - today's court news

Post by ClaretTony » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:50 pm

Lord Rothbury wrote:Large numbers of fans turning up just before kickoff many the worse for drink and many without tickets must have contributed to the crush outside the ground which forced the decision to open the gates.
No it must not have contributed - it didn't contribute.
These 2 users liked this post: South West Claret. JohnDearyMe

Post Reply