Southgate Mania Continues

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:50 am

Now 4 shots on target in last 2 games.

Scintillating and sophisticated football!

Japebe43 · Post by **Japebe43** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:05 am

Cynic.

thelaughingclaret · Post by **thelaughingclaret** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:01 am

No real surprise when you’ve got the great raheam Sterling with his amazing strength and ball control, and Jamie Vardy sat on the bench. Then when you eventually do bring Vardy on you just pass the ball around at the back and don’t get it up there.
Kane and Vardy are goal scorers, but they can’t do it without the ball.

HieronymousBoschHobs · Post by **HieronymousBoschHobs** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:04 am

Expand Rowls.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:16 am

I think he means people are getting ahead of themselves and Kane isn't doing anything special.

I disagree. He's been the best player of this World Cup. Without even trying!

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:19 am

thelaughingclaret wrote:No real surprise when you’ve got the great raheam Sterling with his amazing strength and ball control, and Jamie Vardy sat on the bench. Then when you eventually do bring Vardy on you just pass the ball around at the back and don’t get it up there.
Kane and Vardy are goal scorers, but they can’t do it without the ball.

You’re talking absolute wham criticising Sterling.

Movement. Watch his movement. I lost count how many times he dropped into midfield and then Alli/Lingard ran into the space he’d created after dragging the centre half out of position. Playing out of position last night, again, he was great.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:29 am

Southgate is using a system with which his relatively inexperienced side are very familiar, a system which makes his side efficient rather than scintillating and a system that brings results.

Sound familiar ?

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:10 am

Poor to watch, however 3 1 nil wins will do.
A special mention to Raheem, he really is struggling, but I don't think dropping him will help.
Not sure what the answer is, as the play generally stopped when he received the ball.
Loftus-Cheek was just as bad last time out.

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:15 am

Sterling always shows for the ball. Yes his touch is questionable but as long as he wants the ball I won't criticise him.

Dele Alli on the other hand, he spent most of the night hiding and when he did get the ball he passed it backwards or sideways all night. Awful in my opinion. He's either not fit or the World Cup is too much for him. Either way he should be hooked on Saturday and replaced by Delph or Loftus Cheek.

That's my only criticism of Southgate so far. That and bringing Dier on. He's another that doesn't suit the game Southgate wants to play. He's not quick enough and doesn't move the ball anywhere near quickly enough... but he scored the winning penalty so I'll let him have a joker this time!

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:38 am

Wouldn't say its poor to watch. Far more exciting football than the past few decades.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:48 am

Socrates wrote:You’re talking absolute wham criticising Sterling.

Movement. Watch his movement. I lost count how many times he dropped into midfield and then Alli/Lingard ran into the space he’d created after dragging the centre half out of position. Playing out of position last night, again, he was great.

Sterling has been diabolical. He makes Andre Grey’s first touch look like Zidane. Gives the ball away constantly. Always takes the wrong option. Doesn’t run at defenders. Terrible finishing. Movement is one thing, but in the World Cup, you need a hell of a lot more than just that. And his movement should be the other way, stretching opposition defences, giving space to Alli and Lingard in midfield

Siddo · Post by **Siddo** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:54 am

Gareth Southgate has been a credit to himself and the perfect fit for the England manager position.
Calm and reassuring with an air of professionalism and a clear idea of how to get the best from English players.
We are lucky to have him.

CharlieinNewMexico · Post by **CharlieinNewMexico** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:29 am

Roosterbooster wrote:Sterling has been diabolical. He makes Andre Grey’s first touch look like Zidane. Gives the ball away constantly. Always takes the wrong option. Doesn’t run at defenders. Terrible finishing. Movement is one thing, but in the World Cup, you need a hell of a lot more than just that. And his movement should be the other way, stretching opposition defences, giving space to Alli and Lingard in midfield

I think that's disingenuous. He ran at defenders all night tonight, sometimes infuriatingly so. He just didn't go past them.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:34 am

Sterling has been awful. Workrate and pace aren’t enough at this level.
I have a strange feeling he will come home a hero.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:39 am

Some players do it for their clubs but rarely at international level and personally I think Raheem fits that mould.Played a lot at this level now where his ball control IMO is poor

gtclaret · Post by **gtclaret** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:42 am

Roosterbooster wrote:Sterling has been diabolical. He makes Andre Grey’s first touch look like Zidane. Gives the ball away constantly. Always takes the wrong option. Doesn’t run at defenders. Terrible finishing. Movement is one thing, but in the World Cup, you need a hell of a lot more than just that. And his movement should be the other way, stretching opposition defences, giving space to Alli and Lingard in midfield

Spot on, but the first touch from the team in general is poor. They run, work very hard, but they do look a poor side, I Can't see them beating Sweden, unless they are lucky.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:43 am

One thing I will say for Southgate, he's a good antidote to the current need for extreme polarised opinion. Everyone has to be awful, diabolical and dreadful - or world class, in a different league etc.

Whereas you can imagine Gareth marking everyone, including himself, with a 6 or 7 out of 10. Which is about right up to now, but it's all we've needed to be to match the 'achievements' of our Golden Generations, Galacticos and respected managers over the last 28 years.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:44 am

Fair play to Rashford stepping up , what happened to Vardy ?

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:56 am

I hope Southgate is in charge for a good number of years to come. Some continuity will do us no harm and hopefully a few more from the recently successful younger squads will break through into the senior squad for future tournaments.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:04 am

joey13 wrote:Fair play to Rashford stepping up , what happened to Vardy ?

He sh1t himself, just like Ings did.

Fair play to all that stepped up, they showed real bottle, even more so Dier, who hadn't had the best of games when he can on.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:09 am

On the commentary I’m sure they said Vardy had said yes when asked.

SammyBoy · Post by **SammyBoy** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:30 am

Sterling gives it his all but his first touch and decision making constantly let him down, I think he can get away with it a lot more at City but he always seems to pick the wrong option with England, I'm not sure it's something you can teach either.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:33 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:Southgate is using a system with which his relatively inexperienced side are very familiar, a system which makes his side efficient rather than scintillating and a system that brings results.
Sound familiar ?

There is nothing "similar" about England fannying about with the ball for 45 minutes against a vastly inferior side whose only apparent tactic was 'argue with the referee'. Beating Columbia on penalties isn't "efficient" and neither does it count as a result. It is pot luck at that stage and it was against a vastly inferior side.

Think back to Burnley against Chelsea last season or against Man City when we out-played the greatest ever PL team for at least half a match. Nothing like the kind of pap Southgate teams always serve up.

This England team is NOTHING like a Dyche team.

They are an Eddie Howe kind of team. They are determined to lose the ball at the back. Their constant passing is for its own sake rather than probing or finding space.

We've got the easiest possible route to the World Cup final imaginable now and I ought to be excited because we've got a genuine chance. Southgate, for all his tactical uselessness, has picked a good squad. So why aren't I as excited as I ought to be? Because I fear the first half decent side could tump us - and tump us badly.

This constantly happened to Southgate's Middlebrough team and it happened to his England U21s too.

We're barely mustering shots on goal against the likes of Columbia. It's worrying.

BigChaCha · Post by **BigChaCha** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:40 am

Look, we are an average to good team at best. We are only getting carried away because of some of the big teams going out and the easiest draw on route to the final I have ever seen!

Can an average team win the world cup, probably not but we are capable of beating all teams that we cam possibly play up to the final so let us get carried away a little.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:42 am

Id have thought being Burnley fans people would give credit to Colombia as the underdogs last night. How many times have we (Burnley) stopped the more fancied team play their normal game down the years? Restricted them space, shots, movement. Disrupted play? Got in their faces?

If football results went the way they “should” it’ll be boring. We can look at Belgium and see they struggled against Japan but in reality they showed incredible mental strength and attitude to get through. We were within 1/2 minutes of the next round last night. People don’t realise how difficult it can be to pick yourself back up from that. The players deserve full credit after last to get through an incredibly difficult tie.

The only comparisons you can make with England/Burnley under Dyche is Burnley being the team expected to win against lower opposition would have lost that last night. Take Lincoln for example.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:43 am

I'd love to get carried away and excited. To a certain extent I am.

But I DO worry that any half decent side could thrash us. It's been a consistent occurrence in Southgate's managerial career.

So my excitement is tempered very much by fear.

BigChaCha · Post by **BigChaCha** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:43 am

He sh1t himself, just like Ings did.

He's got an injury!

He had to have injections for it beforehand and did the sensible thing.

He's a doubt for the next match too.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:44 am

Dyched wrote:Id have thought being Burnley fans people would give credit to Colombia as the underdogs last night. How many times have we (Burnley) stopped the more fancied team play their normal game down the years? Restricted them space, shots, movement. Disrupted play? Got in their faces?

I don't exactly remember England giving them the chance to do this. For Columbia to do this we'd have to actually have attacked them.

I remember us fannying around with the ball a LOT at the back. It was very much like watching Eddie Howe's Burnley team.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:50 am

joey13 wrote:Fair play to Rashford stepping up , what happened to Vardy ?

When the players were celebrating the winning penalty Vardy grabbed his groin area so possibly a slight injury and didn`t feel confident because of this. I was flabbergasted he wasn`t the 3rd penalty taker as he is usually lethal for Leicester. It does give you confidence though with the clinical nature of Kane`s, Trippier`s and Rashford`s penalties.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:51 am

Rowls wrote:I'd love to get carried away and excited. To a certain extent I am.

But I DO worry that any half decent side could thrash us. It's been a consistent occurrence in Southgate's managerial career.

So my excitement is tempered very much by fear.

Colombia are a half decent side.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:52 am

Notice a few have asked why Vardy didn't take the last pen. I've heard ex pros say this morning that Southgate and Holland are being praised for excellent analysis with this. Apparently the plan was if Colombia had been 4-3 up Vardy would have taken the penalty as the experienced taker but they saw Dier's penalty to win it as the first free hit leaving the established taker in reserve for a sudden death penalty.

And did anybody else notice that when Colombia had taken a penalty no matter where the ball went after it Pickford went and got the ball and handed to the next England player as he approached the spot. At one point Pickford even took the ball off the referee so he could hand it over to his team mate. Friendly Face Psychology. Brilliant.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:52 am

We are far better than them and their only discernible tactic was "argue with ref".

They were there for the taking and we nearly gave them the game.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:59 am

Rowls wrote:We are far better than them and their only discernible tactic was "argue with ref".

They were there for the taking and we nearly gave them the game.

Maybe they looked like they were "there for the taking" (they weren't) and that was their only tactic because we made them look that way and frustrated them.

What do you call a half decent side? Are any of Sweden, Croatia or Russia half decent?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:01 am

This is another thread where you know instantly those whose opinions about football you can trust, and those who haven't a scooby.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:02 am

Tall Paul wrote:Maybe they looked like they were "there for the taking" (they weren't) and that was their only tactic because we made them look that way and frustrated them.

What do you call a half decent side?

It didn't look like that to me. They over-estimated us and sat back.

We should have gone at them. Instead we played around with it at the back pointlessly for somewhere in the region of 90s minutes. Not so much tika taka but rather tippy tappy.

Watch the highlights on the BBC - England create just two half chances (both from Trippier crosses) all match long and we score from a penalty.

Columbia create more chances than we do in the last 5 minutes when desperation brings them at us. One of them when Southgate's patented Tippy Tappy football gifts them a counter attack. If a decent side attack us like that from the off they could slaughter us - That's my genuine fear and I hope I'm wrong.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:13 am

Rowls wrote:It didn't look like that to me. They over-estimated us and sat back.

We should have gone at them. Instead we played around with it at the back pointlessly for somewhere in the region of 90s minutes. Not so much tika taka but rather tippy tappy.

Watch the highlights on the BBC - England create just two half chances (both from Trippier crosses) all match long and we score from a penalty.

Columbia create more chances than we do in the last 5 minutes when desperation brings them at us. One of them when Southgate's patented Tippy Tappy football gifts them a counter attack. If a decent side attack us like that from the off they could slaughter us - That's my genuine fear and I hope I'm wrong.

They overestimated us by playing three defensive midfielders?

I know expected goals isn't that popular round here, but I think it's quite useful and England's xG was double Colombia's last night (and that doesn't include the penalty). More rudimentary stats show that we had 17 shots and 7 corners, not bad for a team that wasn't attacking.

It's not easy to attack when you're being fouled as soon as you step into the opponent's half and we coped with their tactics well.

You didn't answer my question so I'll try again:
What do you call a half decent side? Are any of Sweden, Croatia or Russia half decent?

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:14 am

Rowls wrote:It didn't look like that to me. They over-estimated us and sat back.

We should have gone at them. Instead we played around with it at the back pointlessly for somewhere in the region of 90s minutes. Not so much tika taka but rather tippy tappy.

Watch the highlights on the BBC - England create just two half chances (both from Trippier crosses) all match long and we score from a penalty.

Columbia create more chances than we do in the last 5 minutes when desperation brings them at us. One of them when Southgate's patented Tippy Tappy football gifts them a counter attack. If a decent side attack us like that from the off they could slaughter us - That's my genuine fear and I hope I'm wrong.

Do you watch Burnley?
How we defend?
Stay in games against this countries elite.
Would you say City would stroll past us easily? Sometimes yes. But at the Turf they had 1/2 chances, we got a point. We got a point against Utd, Spurs, Liverpool, 3 at Everton.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:22 am

Sanchez and Mina are good centre halves. The only goals they conceded were against Japan when they were down to 10 men and chasing the game. We weren't brilliant last night but it wouldn't have been a stroll for any side, not sure what you were expecting.

Pearcey · Post by **Pearcey** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:48 am

I thought Southgate was a very underwhelming appointment. He’s proved me wrong. He has galvanised the players and the fans, which after a poor 20 years is some achievement. Whatever happens in this World Cup, I hope he’s leading us into the next one.

Im_not_Robbie_Blake · Post by **Im_not_Robbie_Blake** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:57 am

He's doing a lot for the waistcoat industry too!
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -world-cup" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:31 pm

Getting into any sort of rhythm was difficult after twenty minutes or so, by which point Columbia had realised that we were by far the better team. From then owards, their approach was to spoil the game and disrupt play, by most means possible.

Our play from the back wasn’t always successful but I wouldn’t say it was tippy tappy. On occasion, when the opportunity presented, it saw us break through with some incisive passing. What I didn’t think we had enough of was movement and it tended to be Kane dropping deeper.

It’ll be a massively different game on Saturday, more to our style I suspect and we will have learned a lot from last night.

I’d liked us to have finished them off but defensively, be it by fair means or not, they did a good job.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:17 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Colombia are a half decent side.

Damn right.

They would have won all three in their group had they not had a first minute red card and penalty against Japan.

And they came through the extremely tough South American qualifiers really well, certainly better than Argentina and putting Chile, Sanchez et al out.

Spain, Portugal, Argentina and Germany are all out because the only really poor sides in the competition were Saudi Arabia and Japan.

England are second favourites for a reason, one being that the bookies reckon we're better than a Croatia side dripping with talent.

In summary, I don't think Southgate's doing a bad job

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:03 pm

Just looking at the abusive comment in post 20 towards Vardy.

BBC 5 live said this morning that Vardy would have taken our 5th penalty.

Macca... do you categorically 100% know who would have taken our 5th penalty, if not Vardy?

- if not, why have you abused him in that manner?

taio · Post by **taio** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:06 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:Just looking at the abusive comment in post 20 towards Vardy.

BBC 5 live said this morning that Vardy would have taken our 5th penalty.

Macca... do you categorically 100% know who would have taken our 5th penalty, if not Vardy?

- if not, why have you abused him in that manner?

Dier took the 5th penalty didn't he?

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:56 pm

CharlieinNewMexico wrote:I think that's disingenuous. He ran at defenders all night tonight, sometimes infuriatingly so. He just didn't go past them.

This did make me laugh this morning. I’m not sure how It was disingenuous; I meant every word. Sterling has received the ball in tight spaces, and kept on to it for too long, and lost it, countless times. Usually after trying to take a player on. But he hasn’t received the ball in space, and run at the back line at pace.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:03 pm

Rowls wrote:It didn't look like that to me. They over-estimated us and sat back.

We should have gone at them. Instead we played around with it at the back pointlessly for somewhere in the region of 90s minutes. Not so much tika taka but rather tippy tappy.

Watch the highlights on the BBC - England create just two half chances (both from Trippier crosses) all match long and we score from a penalty.

Columbia create more chances than we do in the last 5 minutes when desperation brings them at us. One of them when Southgate's patented Tippy Tappy football gifts them a counter attack. If a decent side attack us like that from the off they could slaughter us - That's my genuine fear and I hope I'm wrong.

Don’t worry. You usually are.

What’s your definition of “a decent side” if not Colombia (or Columbia)? Germany? Argentina? Italy? The Netherlands?

I actually agree with you to a certain extent in that France or Brazil would probably batter us if they play to their full potential, but you could say the same about Man City or Chelsea and Burnley (ie they’ve got miles better players than we have). Football doesn’t always work out how you expect it to.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:09 pm

Greenmile wrote:What’s your definition of “a decent side” if not Colombia (or Columbia)? Germany? Argentina? Italy? The Netherlands?

Good question.

Rowls will probably ignore it for a third time.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:11 pm

World Cups is about where you get too, not how you get there. Just look at Bobby Robson and his great 1990 team for proof

Terrible draw against Ireland 1-1
0-0 bore draw against the Dutch
Scraped a 1-0 win with a Mark Wright header against a poor Egypt side
Stole a 1-0 win against Belgium with a 120th minute winner
Took an 83rd minute penalty to equalise against Cameroon and another penalty to beat them in extra time 3-2 (the African teams were nowhere near as competitive as today)
Finally we put in a great performance against the Germans where we were unlucky to go out

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:17 pm

I thought when he brought Rose on he might have gone 442 but he didn’t. Same with Vardy as a 442 would better suit him with balls to the channels, but he didn’t. My fear is we’re playing a system where the players you have available to bring on to affect the game perhaps require a system change

But if you do play 352 and bring Vardy on then put him wide in front of Young so he can run at it

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:27 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:Just looking at the abusive comment in post 20 towards Vardy.

BBC 5 live said this morning that Vardy would have taken our 5th penalty.

Macca... do you categorically 100% know who would have taken our 5th penalty, if not Vardy?

- if not, why have you abused him in that manner?

Abused him? I said he'd sh1t himself, I didn't mean literally...

I used the term loosely, you know, like the term when a player sh1ts out of a 50/50 challenge, they don't actually.... forget it.

I apologise to Mr Vardy, Mr Ings and you Hampstead for any offence caused.

**please note, no poo was actually seen by myself on either of the people mentioned whilst playing football.