Brexit betrayal complete so..

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:56 pm

bfcjg wrote:You're extremely naive if you think the EU don't dictate to us.

What do they dictate to us? That we adopt their currency? That we allow free movement? That our bananas must have a certain curvature?
How exactly do they oppress us?

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:22 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:He got what he wanted out of it, more money. He doesnt' give a **** about what happens to the coun try, unless there's a way for him to make money out of it.

You got any evidence for this allegation ?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:26 pm

claretandy wrote:You got any evidence for this allegation ?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why else would he lie on the night?

Edit: oh, and he still wants his EU pension

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ ... -1-4629783" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:31 pm

What?

We need evidence in these sorts of debates now?

Has anyone told the Brexit supporters?

Anyway, the polls are pretty clear, this splits the country right down between young and old

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status ... 4765238272" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not good really whoever wins.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:32 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:After Chequers May will win any leadership contest hands down.
Only those who call for the contest, possibly about 50 of them will vote for Rees Mogg, and in the interests of "party unity" (i.e. avoiding a general Election at all costs), the rest will support her.
Gove has pretty much ruled himself out of opposing her this morning, and Boris won't stand at this point in time.
(The left / "soft-brexiteers" won't stand against her now).

I doubt that. She might win a leadership challenge perhaps, but just to have a leadership challenge would be a shock for a sitting Tory PM. What could well happen could be similar to what happened to Heath and to Thathcer - they put a "stalking horse" challenger up, one who was never expected to win but one who could gain enough votes to make it untenable for the leader / PM to carry on.

Of course, Heath's stalking horse was Thatcher who slightly upset the applecart by getting far more votes than expected!

If there isn't a new leader before the next election, then May will not be able to stand on a "strong and stable" platform, more a "useless and incompetent" platform. For that reason, even her anti-Brexit supporters will want rid of her before the election. The problem the Tories are going to have, whether May is in charge or not, is that having thrown away their strongest voting point (economic competence) and having disgusted many of their Brexit supporters, how many votes have they lost?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:43 pm

Doesn't matter.

No one want to own Brexit. Not even the Brexiteers.

May will be in charge for a while yet.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:51 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What do they dictate to us? That we adopt their currency? That we allow free movement? That our bananas must have a certain curvature?
How exactly do they oppress us?

"A regulation is a legal act of the European Union that becomes immediately enforceable as law in all member states simultaneously. Regulations can be distinguished from directives which, at least in principle, need to be transposed into national law."
That actually is taken from the EU. You really need to get your facts right.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:01 pm

bfcjg wrote:"A regulation is a legal act of the European Union that becomes immediately enforceable as law in all member states simultaneously. Regulations can be distinguished from directives which, at least in principle, need to be transposed into national law."
That actually is taken from the EU. You really need to get your facts right.

You literally just went to Wikipedia and copy pasted somethign that proves absolutely nothing and then claimed i need to get my fact straight

As i've said before, just because a law comes into force that our MEPs voted against doesn't mean we're being dictated to. If it did then the 52% who voted to leave are oppressing the 48% of us who didn't. And that's just ******* stupid.

But if you're happy to call the referendum result undemocratic and dictatorial then i'm happy to listen to you make the case you're making against how the EU votes for regulations, because it at least means you're being consistent.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:01 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-vote

Why else would he lie on the night?

Edit: oh, and he still wants his EU pension
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ ... -1-4629783" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

can you prove he lied ?

He says he didn't believe their polling.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:02 pm

Well, thank god Nigel hasn't got a track record in stuff like this eh?

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:15 pm

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:18 pm

I'd be happy to leave the EU if in doing so it would be equally as difficult for our governments to burn away our rights, particularly Worker's Rights. But it doesn't. It makes it much, much easier. And that's a big part of why so many on the right want to leave.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:32 pm

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:33 pm

If it be your will wrote:This isn't quite right. There are significant numbers on the left wanted to leave. The right are split more or less down the middle, on the left it's probably more like 80/20. Their case, as far as I can tell, was virtually absent in the media, but they are there.

I have two friends who voted to leave and are very far left politically. Interestingly all the people I know who voted remain are not political at all and didnt really know much about the EU or what it did.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:42 pm

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:48 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:I have two friends who voted to leave and are very far left politically. Interestingly all the people I know who voted remain are not political at all and didnt really know much about the EU or what it did.

Does "very far left" mean they don't want to lock up all Muslims?

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:58 pm

It's strange that the Country's where the " Populist Right " have gained control or a degree of influence tend to be those that were formerly under the dominance of Russia, in the old Eastern Bloc. The people don't appear happy that their " mainstream " politicians have signed them up to another artificial political construct, under the control of a large Country dictating to them, ie: the EU under Franco/German control ....

" IT " may wish to tell us how many Countries Mrs Merkl consulted before throwing open Germany's borders, and then tried to force other EU Countries to take Economic migrants, against their will. If the Germans and the French had played to the rules of the EU and not ignored them whenever it suited, then we may have believed them.... How do you think a British Company would have been dealt with if they had cheated the emissions rules as the Volkswagen/Audi group had ??

I suspect that Mrs May's " Proposals " may well be rejected by the EU negotiators anyway, and we can then leave without a deal, keeping our £39 bn. We can then join the Americans in withdrawing our troops from Germany, and leave the wonderful EU Army to protect their borders, as they so fervently wish to do.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:09 pm

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:09 pm

Can we have some sort of rule in which those who are clearly smacked off their tits AND don't know anything about what they are talking about are automatically logged out?

See also the Raheem Sterling thread btw

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:10 pm

If it be your will wrote:That is true, and a real danger. Had we left the EU (properly I mean), suddenly it would be up to us to obtain and protect our own rights. If history is a guide - and I accept it might not be - the UK electorate did a very good job of that before we joined the EU. (I'm thinking of the rights obtained in the 40 years before we joined compared to the 40 years since). Also, had we left, the right could no longer blame the EU for everything, and I think the left would have defeated them once it became apparent what a free-market wasteland was going to look like.

Anyway, it's all academic now. We're not leaving (properly) and probably won't for a very long time, so we'll never know.

You're referring to a time when we had responsible journalism and when people called out liars. Nowadays any responsible journalism we have is called "fake news" or "biased" because people aren't interested in facts anymore. Just look at the reaction to the possibility that Russia interfered in the referendum, or that Vote Leave broke electoral laws. They don't care, and will shout down anyone who dares to say "hey, this isn't OK. Maybe we should investigate this". They'll call us "sore losers" and tell us to "get over it" because while criminality might have happened, it worked in their favour this time. Watch though as these same people start quoting crime figures in the future as a reason to support their preferred candidate in an election - without a hint of irony.

We don't need to leave the EU to see what a "free-market wasteland" looks like. Just look across the Atlantic. Watch their government gut voting rights, give corporations unlimited spending in elections, gut worker's rights and collective bargaining, rig elections, gut affordable healthcare. Our country is headed in that direction, which is part of the reason i'm so interested in their politics. Not only can they not feed their homeless, they can't even feed their veterans, who are too often homeless and suicidal too. Because doing so would be socialism. The great American boogeyman.

Every two years the US electorate vote against their own interests. Over there the left and centre-left vote usually to help poor people and poor states (usually republicans) while those poor people and states vote for the conservatives who want to make it harder for them to afford food, and to allow corporations to put all kinds of **** in what food they can afford, because those conservatives were able to convince these people that their plight isn't their fault. They tell them comforting lies to get their votes. It's always the fault of the liberals, or the liberal media, or of atheists, of Muslims, of immigrants, etc. - not the banks who raped the economy, or the corporations that rape their land and poison their water and food. It's never the fault of themselves for voting for people who aren't interested in their well-being. Sound familiar?

When we look across the water we need to see that the present is prologue. They really are on a path to fascism, and by leaving the EU we're giving away the first line of defence against what's happening there happening here.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:15 pm

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:16 pm

If it be your will wrote:Same here. I know a few lefties, and we were split right down the middle. You might laugh, but we have had some excellent discussions on it, far better than the debates aired in the media. The paper that perhaps should have aired this debate was The Guardian, but it didn't. The only paper that did - a little bit at least - was the FT! Everywhere else it was non-existent.

Edit - interestingly enough, The Guardian did entertain this debate, but only until the referendum (e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ur-prophet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... urosceptic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) but then completely abandoned it once the referendum was called. A bad do, by The Guardian, was that.

One of the problems we have is that people can't tell the difference between a newspaper's editorial position and opinion articles like those you've linked to. For example comments about something in the Guardian almost always start with "The Guardian says..."

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:16 pm

If it be your will wrote:The game's up, Clarets4me. It's now better to accept defeat and just remain.

Both major parties fought the last Election, pledged to enact the wishes of the British people expressed in the Referendum ... this cannot be ignored, it is another example of the Politicians ignoring the will of the people, and when that happens, you end up with Trump, Le Pen and worse...

Mind you, I fully expected the Labour party to try to weasel out of their promise, though ...

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:29 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Both major parties fought the last Election, pledged to enact the wishes of the British people expressed in the Referendum ... this cannot be ignored, it is another example of the Politicians ignoring the will of the people, and when that happens, you end up with Trump, Le Pen and worse...

Mind you, I fully expected the Labour party to try to weasel out of their promise, though ...

We're still leaving. No matter what deal we have when we leave, if we leave then you have no argument that the wishes of the British people expressed in the referendum have been ignored. Absolutely none.

Maybe if you wanted a harder Brexit then the Leave side(s) should have campaigned for one. Or maybe you should have rejected a referendum with only remain and leave as the option. Or maybe you shouldn't have been so visceral in your opposition to a second referendum to decide things like the kind of Brexit we should get.

I've no doubt you'll blame Remainers for you not getting what you wanted, but you voted for this when you voted to Leave. To turn around now and claim that the will of the people isn't being obeyed when the will of the people was to vaguely vote to leave (only just), and we then leave (only just), is just ******* hilarious to the rest of us.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:38 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:We're still leaving. No matter what deal we have when we leave, if we leave then you have no argument that the wishes of the British people expressed in the referendum have been ignored. Absolutely none.

Maybe if you wanted a harder Brexit then the Leave side(s) should have campaigned for one. Or maybe you should have rejected a referendum with only remain and leave as the option. Or maybe you shouldn't have been so visceral in your opposition to a second referendum to decide things like the kind of Brexit we should get.

I've no doubt you'll blame Remainers for you not getting what you wanted, but you voted for this when you voted to Leave. To turn around now and claim that the will of the people isn't being obeyed when the will of the people was to vaguely vote to leave (only just), and we then leave (only just), is just ******* hilarious to the rest of us.

I was replying to the previous poster's view that we should give up, and just remain .....y

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:52 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:59 pm

Loyalclaret wrote:On a thread regarding ‘quotes your Mrs/women have said’ you wedged in a racist comment you mean. The second paragraph totally contradicts the crap you wrote when banned.

No, the racist comment WAS the quote from Sarah Champion, hence the quotation marks and the fact it was on that thread.
That's why it was on the "stupid things women have said" thread but thanks for making my point for me.
What you probably mean is "Whoops, I didn't know it was a quote (even though it was in quotation marks), sorry for that" but that's hardly what I'd expect anyway.

LongsideFacingUp · Post by **LongsideFacingUp** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:59 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I knew you'd go straight to that and completely ignore the rest of my post which destroys your point. It's why i did it.

Truly, we are blessed to be in the presence of such a mighty intellect.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:00 pm

Labour have proved time and time again they have absolutely no control over this Brexit process AND no wish to stop it.

Regarding the lexit debate, it makes even less sense than the right wing Brexit case to be perfectly honest.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:03 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Labour have proved time and time again they have absolutely no control over this Brexit process AND no wish to stop it.

Regarding the lexit debate, it makes even less sense than the right wing Brexit case to be perfectly honest.

To be fair I think they probably think it’s the governments job to have control of the Brexit process.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:05 pm

Oh look...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40952224" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can you spot my quote?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:06 pm

Yeah, but to spend two years being even more f**ked up than the Conservatives is still quite a feat.

Even the Daily mail recognises that it wouldn't be happening without Corbyn.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:06 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:In those countries with far-right leadership, please name the "liberal elites" that have "let the populous down".

I'll wait.

Are you truly simple? Every country in western Europe and ours in particular

You know you have the wrong name. You should be Bleeding Heart or Wet Fart.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:08 pm

Stayingup wrote:Are you truly simple? Every country in western Europe and ours in particular

You know you have the wrong name. You should be Bleeding Heart or Wet Fart.

That's not an answer. Name a "liberal elite" leader that has let down a population that now has a far-right government.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:08 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Can we have some sort of rule in which those who are clearly smacked off their tits AND don't know anything about what they are talking about are automatically logged out?

See also the Raheem Sterling thread btw

Yes so hopefully we won't be hearing from you again.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:10 pm

Tough mate

I don't qualify as either.

Yourself?

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:10 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Does "very far left" mean they don't want to lock up all Muslims?

sure, why not

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Clarets4me wrote:We can then join the Americans in withdrawing our troops from Germany, and leave the wonderful EU Army to protect their borders, as they so fervently wish to do.

Do you know how many UK soldiers are in Germany? Do you know how many will still be there in 18 months?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:14 pm

LongsideFacingUp wrote:[*img]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nsIn6oKZzHQ/hqdefault.jpg[/img]

Truly, we are blessed to be in the presence of such a mighty intellect.

Still doesn't change the fact that he chose to ignore my point and went straight to playing the victim card. You people are pretty predictable. When we completely refute your points you crawl under a rock. So it's worth it to just stick a little dig at the end to make sure you reply and can't claim "oh, i never saw it" when we ask you to respond.

It does amuse me how terrible upset the side of anti-political correctness get when faced with insulting terms.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:16 pm

Don't think the current UK deployment of troops in NATO is his thing somehow

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:25 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Does "very far left" mean they don't want to lock up all Muslims?

No just the jews:)

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:35 pm

dsr wrote:I doubt that. She might win a leadership challenge perhaps, but just to have a leadership challenge would be a shock for a sitting Tory PM. What could well happen could be similar to what happened to Heath and to Thathcer - they put a "stalking horse" challenger up, one who was never expected to win but one who could gain enough votes to make it untenable for the leader / PM to carry on.

So go on then.
Assuming they can find the 48 (I believe that's the number) MPs to trigger a leadership election, who would stand against May?
There were apparently only 7 Cabinet ministers who opposed May's "deal". (Out of 27)
Johnson would not stand at this point, since his career would be over if he lost, (and he probably doesn't really believe he could see brexit through anyway. He's an opportunist.)
Leadsom might have a go. Davis can't stand I don't think, and Gove has changed sides.
Backbencher JRM might be persuaded to stand, but if he did, then how many Tory MPs would actually vote for him?.
The left / soft brexiteers wouldn't field a candidate against May for fear of splitting the vote, and weakening her position. (It's already weak enough as she relies on the DUP and tries to keep all sides happy).
Weakening May's position could potentially lead to a vote of confidence and the govt. falling. The Tories greatest fear is losing power to Corbyn, and self-preservation will come before all. The whips would be out in force for May.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:44 pm

Hearing David Davis, Minister for Brexit has resigned

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:52 pm

David Davis resigns as Brexit secretary, reports say

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:52 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Hearing David Davis, Minister for Brexit has resigned

Yep, so following on from my previous post, perhaps he thinks he can beat May.
He'll do better than JRM if he stands against her, but I can't see him getting near enough to May to bring her down or change anything.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:54 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Yep, so following on from my previous post, perhaps he thinks he can beat May.
He'll do better than JRM if he stands against her, but I can't see him getting near enough to May to bring her down or change anything.

But wouldn't he be better off holding his position and then forcing her to fire him by challenging her? I'd be surprised if this was a prelude to a leadership challenge from Davis.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:59 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:But wouldn't he be better off holding his position and then forcing her to fire him by challenging her? I'd be surprised if this was a prelude to a leadership challenge from Davis.

Don't think he could challenge May whilst still in the cabinet since all the cabinet supposedly agreed to collective responsibility at Chequers

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:03 am

David Davis could cause problems from the back benches,possible stalking horse for a leadership challenge.

At least he is principled and this puts the onus on Johnson and Gove.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:06 am

CombatClaret wrote:Hearing David Davis, Minister for Brexit has resigned

There's only one man to save us now and he's been conspicuously absent from this board since Chequers.
Cometh the hour, cometh the man. Ringo - your country needs you!

Japebe43 · Post by **Japebe43** » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:09 am

Why don't we just stay in the EU? I'm fed up of hearing about it, and its obvious nobody wants brexit anymore.