David Davis resigns

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claretandy
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by claretandy » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:54 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Haven't Labour pledged to stay in the customs union now anyway?

Solves the border issues and makes a lot more sense for business.
"A customs union" not the customs union, they also say they want to negotiate free trade deals, so not much different from the government really.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:58 pm

Again that is semantics Andy, you can call it the "UK Customs Union" if it helps, but its still the customs union!

tiger76
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by tiger76 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:08 pm

Rowdy PMQ'S earlier,Jezza attacking Vote Leave campaign,but getting his facts wrong as regards,who was referred to the police.

The Labour leader began by accusing cabinet ministers Michael Gove, Dominic Raab and Chris Grayling of being "referred to the police by the Electoral Commission, having refused to cooperate with the Electoral Commission". The three were leading figures in the Vote Leave campaign, which was found on Tuesday to have broken electoral law during the 2016 EU referendum.

(In fact, the elections watchdog has referred a Vote Leave official to the police, not any of the politicians involved in the campaign).

I thought Jeremy didn't do personal attacks,but even more worrying is he didn't fact check his notes,is he learning from Trump.

bluelabrador16
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by bluelabrador16 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:09 pm

Chief Rabbi Vs. Labour Party ... Gilad Atzmon

Image

Labour has defended its new code as the most "comprehensive" of any party.
"...But one may wonder, why do we need a special definition for antisemitsm? Is a general and universal denouncement of racism, bigotry and discrimination of all kinds not sufficient? Are Jews somehow special?

The new Labour code does endorse the IHRA's working definition of anti-Semitism and includes behaviours it lists as likely to be regarded as anti-Semitic – yet Jewish critics point out that it leaves out four examples from that definition:

* Accusing Jewish people of being more loyal to Israel than their home country

* Claiming that Israel's existence as a state is a racist endeavour

* Requiring higher standards of behaviour from Israel than other nations

* Comparing contemporary Israeli policies to those of the Nazis

Far from being surprising, Corbyn’s Labour see Israeli criminality as a problem and insists upon the right to criticise the actions of the Jewish State and its lobbies in political, cultural and historical contexts....

I would argue however that the Labour party, Rabbi Mirvis and most British Jewish institutions are on the wrong side of history here. If racism and Bigotry are defined as the discrimination of X for being X (X=woman, Jew, Black, Muslim, Gay, White etc.), then for Britain to move forward and to sustain the spirit of the common law, it must oppose all forms of racism and bigotry all together and equally.

To fight racism we need to follow one simple universal guideline rather than looking for the specific demands of one group or another.


http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/2018/7/ ... bour-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

burnleymik
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by burnleymik » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:13 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Again you're laying the blame on the EU for what is the fault of our own governments. The policy of every government for the last forty years has been to deregulate the labour market as much as possible, and has been away from the idea of Full Employment. These were conscious choices by democratically elected UK governments. If it were the EU then we'd see the same problems in Germany, Sweden, and France. We don't because they have more robust work regulations.

I'm not saying the EU is perfect, but when you're looking for something to blame for the fact child poverty is going up, the NHS is in crisis, education is underfunded, and housing in shortage; why blame the EU when you have successive governments that have cut so much spending on these things while handing out tax breaks to the rich?
I agree those things must certainly have an impact and likely a big impact, but the EU will not allow us to protect our workers by changing the rules on FOM. We asked and they declared it one of their fundamental principles. If they had allowed some room for negotiation then we could have had something in place to stop the flooding of the lower end of the Labour market.


Absolving the EU of all blame and putting it solely on the governments of the last 40 years seems misguided to me. Yes, more funding could have helped reduce the pressures on services, but migration has happened so quickly and on such a large scale that I think even with money thrown at it, the impact would have still been felt on a large scale.

All we asked for is the ability to control it, to protect our workers, we were refused.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Greenmile » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:18 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Greenmile, Crosspool can look after himself on this board, but I'd thought I'd comment on your post.

Don't you think that there's more than a little exaggeration in your post: 8 years of (I) coalition government for 5 years and (ii) 3 years Conservatives, split between Cameron and May; and you describe this as "the best part of a decade under one of the most right wing Tory parties in memory.... " have you forgotten the "Thatcher years?"

And, as I read Crosspool, he's saying he has a degree in Economics (I assume that's what he means by "qualified") and now works as an accountant, (that's not a rare career path) and then makes some comments about how "economics" has worked since John Maynard Keynes proposed his understanding of "supply and demand." That's where Crosspool get's what you call his "not backed up by any facts...."

The "experts" we are all sick of are the ones who make pronouncements, but don't back up the forecasts by any explanation of how they reach their conclusions. Those who understand this area of econometrics can understand the calculations and the political choices that the "experts" have made to reach their conclusions.
Hi Paul

You've made me go back and read the rest of Crosspool's post now - I may not forgive you for that :)

Let's take a closer look at some of his "expert" analysis, shall we?
CrosspoolClarets wrote:1. I made a mistake in an earlier tweet, it was since 2004 that Poland et al joined the EU, and since then our GDP per capita has not risen much if at all, whereas Germany has and the US has shot up. That is 14 years.
Bear in mind that his original point was that mass immigration (and nothing else) has depressed working class wages. I wonder which two countries have had more immigration than any other? Oh, it's Germany and the US.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... cd-ranking" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(article is from 2014 but that puts it more-or-less in the middle of the "last decade" timeframe he originally specified.
CrosspoolClarets wrote:2. Simple supply and demand economics would suggest that if worker numbers go up, wages go down. We are at the point in the economic cycle when companies should be short of workers and this pushes up wages, but it isn’t happening - because there isn’t a shortfall.
I see this a lot, and it seems to be based on the premise that immigrants don't consume anything (thus creating additional demand), which is obviously false. In fact, "simple supply and demand" is totally inadequate to model the effect of immigration on working class wages, as any (honest) qualified economist would tell you.
CrosspoolClarets wrote:3. Not only that but companies have little incentive to invest in training and development, pay full time wages (they prefer a flexible workforce of part timers), improve working conditions to attract workers, and negotiate with unions. Why should they - there is an endless supply of cheap labour.
The obvious way to rectify this would be to support and vote for the party of the unions, Labour. I'll let you decide whether you think Crosspool will be doing this. Besides, I thought all the immigrants were claiming benefits (Schrodingers immigrants, obviously)
CrosspoolClarets wrote:4. That means very, very low productivity - a huge problem for our economy (as is those same migrants sending much of the money home instead of reinvesting it in our economy).
I would suggest that someone with the wherewithall to get off their backside and move to another country in pursuit of a better life is more likely to be productive than your average Brit. I'll admit I have no evidence of this beyond the anecdotal, and I also accept the point in brackets about money leaving the UK.
CrosspoolClarets wrote:5. The Phillips Curve is the thing that is meant to prove wages should be rising. But it applies to closed systems. Ours is open, with a never ending labour supply. It is an economic anomaly (not unique, but rare).
I've never heard of the Phillips Curve to be honest, but if it's based on a closed system in terms of workforces then it is entirely useless and out of place in the modern world (apart from maybe in North Korea). He seems to be suggesting here that the UK is the only country that experiences immigration (I'll allow for the fact that I may have missed the point he was trying to make here).
CrosspoolClarets wrote:6. Governments have a perverse incentive to promote GDP growth, not GDP per capita. It makes them look good. We are NOT booming. Far from it (prior to the Brexit vote).
Fair enough, but the implication seems to be that Brexit will improve this, which is obviously nonsense.

Now, when I said we are sick of experts, my tongue was firmly in cheek - I'm actually a big fan of listening to experts, just not those (like Crosspool) who start from a desired outcome and work backwards to acheive it, all the while waving their expertise like a big stick as if it makes them automatically right. He is obviously a bright bloke, but is equally obviously not above telling outright lies to try and get less bright folk to agree with his world views. Do you honestly believe he has used his "expertise" to come to the conclusions outlined above, or do you think he might have reached those conclusions based on his own right-wing ideology, and then tried to lend them more weight by saying "I'm a qualified economist"?

Just to address the couple of points you've made - I said "the best part of a decade under one of the most right wing Tory parties in memory.... ", so I stand by that. Nobody has even tried to persuade me that our (popular, read gutter) press is liberal by anyone's standards, or that the GFC and Tory austerity might have had a bit of an effect on working class wages / income. Why? because it's much easier to blame "the other" (immigrants). As per my original post on this matter - "why punch up, when you can punch down?"
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:55 pm

Hodge taking no prisoners and not backing down, and explaining it all rather well.

Course if you still want to believe that non-Jews know what anti-semitism is better than a Jew, then knock yourself out.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Spijed » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:57 pm

Greenmile wrote:I would suggest that someone with the wherewithall to get off their backside and move to another country in pursuit of a better life is more likely to be productive than your average Brit. I'll admit I have no evidence of this beyond the anecdotal, and I also accept the point in brackets about money leaving the UK.
Isn't it the case that foreign workers are more willing to do the jobs that Brits won't such as cleaning toilets etc.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Spiral » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:06 pm

Spijed wrote:Isn't it the case that foreign workers are more willing to do the jobs that Brits won't such as cleaning toilets etc.
This is the point in the conversation where someone holding anti-immigration views feigns concern for 'brain drain' in Eastern European countries; qualified professionals leaving Poland to make more money driving taxis in Britain, etc.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:16 pm

Spijed wrote:Isn't it the case that foreign workers are more willing to do the jobs that Brits won't such as cleaning toilets etc.
That's a myth certain quarters churn out, the Brits are workshy lazy idle sods, the Eastern bloc graft their nads off blah blah, daresay in truth you get certain elements regardless of nationality.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Spiral » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:31 pm

They'll often work under worse conditions than Brits, (that's anecdotal, I don't even know how you'd begin to quantify certain elements of "working conditions"), but I'm personally of the opinion that if you make this about pitting British worker vs foreign worker, you're letting a really $hitty employer off the hook. That said, it can't be ignored that there are some industries requiring menial labour that wouldn't exist as they are (or at all in Britain, perhaps?) without immigrant workers. Might be a difficult pill some some to swallow, I can understand that, but under our (the planet's) current economic models it's a fact of life.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Caballo » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:52 pm

Spiral wrote:This is the point in the conversation where someone holding anti-immigration views feigns concern for 'brain drain' in Eastern European countries; qualified professionals leaving Poland to make more money driving taxis in Britain, etc.
Whether people wish to acknowledge it or not, those most affected by uncontrolled migration are the least equipped to deal with it. The young, poorly educated indigenous population are having what hope they had of getting on, dashed. Jostling for position with better qualified, more experienced, more mature opposition. They've already failed or been failed by the education system, do we consign them to the scrapheap in adulthood too?
There Is little doubt that mass low skilled immigration has distorted the jobs market, allowing less scrupulous employers to adopt such practices as zero hour contracts. Other than controlling the flow, I can't see an answer.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Spiral » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:10 pm

Caballo wrote:Whether people wish to acknowledge it or not, those most affected by uncontrolled migration are the least equipped to deal with it. The young, poorly educated indigenous population are having what hope they had of getting on, dashed. Jostling for position with better qualified, more experienced, more mature opposition. They've already failed or been failed by the education system, do we consign them to the scrapheap in adulthood too?
There Is little doubt that mass low skilled immigration has distorted the jobs market, allowing less scrupulous employers to adopt such practices as zero hour contracts. Other than controlling the flow, I can't see an answer.
Invest in the indigenous people. If you ensure people are smart enough to hold down a job (and I swear to God, you could massively improve this just by reducing class room sizes), healthy enough to go work, and can comfortably afford a roof over their head, so many problems take care of themselves. That all means investment (many investments have multiplier effects, but it requires the political will and courage to attempt to sell it to the electorate) and this is where folk have philosophical disagreements about the extent to which they believe the state can resolve or at least mitigate issues when it comes to market forces failing to provide essentials. Even without immigration, populations increase. Without growth, pensions fail. If the gears that allow a society to function come to a halt, we're f.ucked, immigration or no immigration, so there's a need to build either way. We're coming back to austerity, here.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:33 pm

Goodness, when we see the inane rantings of Greenmile to a very reasoned post we understand why the far left get disparaged as being all ideology no logic.

I have a reasoned opinion but it isn't expert. I have a postgrad qualification in health economics, I know naff all about this stuff. The basics though I can at least give a view on.

As I said, I may be wrong, but I would wager a lot of my cash that I am not.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by martin_p » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:45 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Goodness, when we see the inane rantings of Greenmile to a very reasoned post we understand why the far left get disparaged as being all ideology no logic.

I have a reasoned opinion but it isn't expert. I have a postgrad qualification in health economics, I know naff all about this stuff. The basics though I can at least give a view on.

As I said, I may be wrong, but I would wager a lot of my cash that I am not.
Why is addressing each of your points an ‘inane rant’?
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:49 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Goodness, when we see the inane rantings of Greenmile to a very reasoned post we understand why the far left get disparaged as being all ideology no logic.

I have a reasoned opinion but it isn't expert. I have a postgrad qualification in health economics, I know naff all about this stuff. The basics though I can at least give a view on.

As I said, I may be wrong, but I would wager a lot of my cash that I am not.

"far left"

:lol:

So is it just everyone who opposes Brexit that's far-left now? The far-right are racists and fascists, the equal and opposite of that on the left are people who support being in the EU? :lol:

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:51 pm

martin_p wrote:Why is addressing each of your points an ‘inane rant’?

Because he can't argue his points. The next thing he does is block you so that he can just pretend your point of view, that he can't refute, doesn't exist.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:55 pm

Edit wrong thread

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:58 pm

Whether you "its all the fault of the immigrants" lot like it or not, the decline in training opportunities for the indigenous people through government initiatives is just as relevant.

And its not just unskilled migrants coming in either, you risk alienating the skilled migrants that we desperately need as well.

I agree there has to be some give on both sides here, but there is a way of controlling immigration within the EU (see Belgium) and there is a way of increasing educational training for those who have been failed by it*

*and lets not pretend that its also the fault of parents and others as well

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Spiral » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:09 pm

There's also the argument that, following the accepted wisdom of indigenous (hate the word but I'll go along with it) people losing out on work opportunities to ostensibly more productive immigrants, by ignoring the need for better training and specialisation more preferable (understandably) to British workers whilst also closing the door on immigrants you're essentially condemning British businesses to a more unproductive workforce, which I'm really struggling to reconcile with 'Global Britain' as an idea. I'm leaning more into the argument for better training & education and more specialisation (an essential component of globalism).

Saying "lets make this thing better" might seem like a bit of a fantasy to some, I accept that people think that way, as though you just click your fingers/write a cheque and all is better in the world, but it's far less of a fantasy than trying to shape a country in the image of a period that, whether you like it or not, isn't coming back.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by burnleymik » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:27 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Whether you "its all the fault of the immigrants" lot like it or not, the decline in training opportunities for the indigenous people through government initiatives is just as relevant.

And its not just unskilled migrants coming in either, you risk alienating the skilled migrants that we desperately need as well.

I agree there has to be some give on both sides here, but there is a way of controlling immigration within the EU (see Belgium) and there is a way of increasing educational training for those who have been failed by it*

*and lets not pretend that its also the fault of parents and others as well
This is the point I feel most Brexiteers were making. We can have skilled migration from anywhere in the world , including the EU, my only stipulation is that there are some kind of restrictions, i.e. If the business cannot find a British person to do the job and can prove they have tried. Obviously in services where we desperately need skilled people, such as the NHS, then change the criteria to make it more favourable for people wishing to move here from those skill pools. This said there should also be stipulations on business to start re-investing in training and developing people, rather than simply relying on immigration.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:34 pm

Massive fan of businesses constantly training, more than willing to see much more money poured into that.

I'm not sure that the Brexit that is going to come (from the right of the Conservative Party) is going to result in anything that will reduce our reliance on foreign labour, both skilled and unskilled.

Perhaps teaching those that leave school with no skills (academic or practical) that certain jobs are actually alright, rather than the constant "thats not a proper job"

People seem to think pressing a button in a factory is fine, but would turn their nose up at shop work, catering, McDonalds etc etc which is silly, as a job is a job and it is a two way contract between you and them.

Basically, I don't think Brexit will help us in this, and it is something that really does need sorting out.

PS I hate the term indigenous as well, but can't think of another way of describing the non-EU population of the UK
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:35 pm

Oh, this is interesting

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4566_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by burnleymik » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:38 pm

Spijed wrote:Isn't it the case that foreign workers are more willing to do the jobs that Brits won't such as cleaning toilets etc.
I think this is another myth, of sorts. Of course the people who want to move to another country to work are more likely to be the dynamic and hard working types, but I don't think it's true that the Brits are lazy.

I personally think a lot of it, as someone said earlier, is because it's easier for unscrupulous businesses to exploit people who are not as aware of the rules and laws of the UK. Especially when it comes to the farming side of things. I know not all are bad,, but if you just google "exploitation farms EU migrants" you will see how many stories there are and they are just the ones being exposed. British people will not put up with that kind of behaviour because they are aware of their rights and the laws. It's not only farmers,. the big boys, like Mike Ashley's outfit and Amazon are all guilty of similar practices.

Also, British people have a whole life to fund here, where as lots of migrants share costs and accommodation and don;'t need the same job security that people who live here permanently do and so they can be more versatile and work for less money, as their overheads are lower.

There are many other factors I have probably missed, but just blaming Brits for being lazy is a cop-out and an excuse big business loves.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:44 pm

I think what is important to note as well as we are all in what can best be described as "experienced in work"

You meet people who deserve far better than what they have got in work, and also people who have done nothing to deserve the position they are in.

I'm a massive fan of unions and working rights, but I have seen (certainly in the NHS and working with dock workers) that unless there are good relations between a progressive management and a realistic and pragmatic union, then it can really get in the way of solving problems, and crucially, productivity.

Which Brexit or no Brexit, is our current massive achilles heel.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Greenmile » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:45 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Goodness, when we see the inane rantings of Greenmile to a very reasoned post we understand why the far left get disparaged as being all ideology no logic.

I have a reasoned opinion but it isn't expert. I have a postgrad qualification in health economics, I know naff all about this stuff. The basics though I can at least give a view on.

As I said, I may be wrong, but I would wager a lot of my cash that I am not.
Then why say “I’m a qualified economist” like it makes your opinions more valid? I mean, I’ve got a GCSE in Business Studies, but you don’t see me banging on about it.

The rest of your post doesn’t warrant a response - ad-hominem is still ad-hominem, even when preceded by the ever-so-polite “goodness”.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by burnleymik » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:52 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh, this is interesting

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4566_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd have no problem with people who have this moving around the EU freely, but I would like to know what all these "other rights" are they would have. If those rights, in anyway, are greater than rights of the "indigenous" population of the country they are in, then I don't think it would be acceptable. Unfortunately I am very sceptical of the EU on directives like this, as I feel they are just trying to centralise more power to the EU, rather than member states.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:56 pm

It looks like a chance for those of us who value being an EU citizen to continue to have the same rights EU wide.

Course, its very early days and there will be problems to be sorted but it looks interesting at the moment.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by tiger76 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:26 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Massive fan of businesses constantly training, more than willing to see much more money poured into that.

I'm not sure that the Brexit that is going to come (from the right of the Conservative Party) is going to result in anything that will reduce our reliance on foreign labour, both skilled and unskilled.

Perhaps teaching those that leave school with no skills (academic or practical) that certain jobs are actually alright, rather than the constant "thats not a proper job"

People seem to think pressing a button in a factory is fine, but would turn their nose up at shop work, catering, McDonalds etc etc which is silly, as a job is a job and it is a two way contract between you and them.

Basically, I don't think Brexit will help us in this, and it is something that really does need sorting out.

PS I hate the term indigenous as well, but can't think of another way of describing the non-EU population of the UK
Good post LC,i agree apprenticeships are vital to improve the workforce,whatever happens with Brexit automaton/technology is evolving rapidly,and the education and skills of young people needs to adapt to this changing world.

Retraining the existing staff,many who will not be familiar with digitisation,but if they are valued members of the employers would save potentially recruiting/interviewing new people unnecessarily as well.

There seems to be a snobbery that if you don't have a degree you are somehow inferior,yes in certain trades/professions degrees are vital,but with graduates growing year-on-year it's inevitable some will be squeezed out of their preferred vocations,i know of several people in my own workplace who are over-qualified for the manual labour jobs they are employed in,but they cannot find positions more suited to their talents.

My niece is 23 with no qualifications,but if anybody suggests a cleaning job for example she states "i don't want to do that" now i know not all young people are the same,but there is a growing number that for whatever reason feel cleaning,nursing,factory work are not glamorous enough for them.

Another issue as you point out,it's a two way contract between employer/employee,if zero-hours contracts where not abused by some employers (Sports Direct) for one,and people felt valued you get a more productive and happier workforce,who in turn may speak to friends/family and generate positive feedback for the said employer.

It was notable many areas that voted Brexit were traditional industrial manufacturing sites/or ex-pit towns where often fathers would be followed into the same game by their sons,this certainty of a job for life does not exist now,and most of these constituencies have high levels of unemployment,plus high rates of crime and addiction abuse whether drugs/alcohol,as other people have mentioned they felt rightly or wrongly that taking a chance on Brexit was worth the gamble.

I certainly don't think Brexit will impact on net migration as much as some people imagine,already we are experiencing a shortage of nurses and doctors,the hospitality sector and seasonal employers like farming are seeing a negative effect even before the UK has officially exited from the EU,somehow the government has to reverse this decline in EU workers or find "local" people willing to do these jobs,wages are a factor in this as well though,at the same time non-EU migration has increased and if we sign a trade deal with India,this will rapidly increase.

The bottom line is Brexit isn't some panacea as many believe,it depends how the UK wants to develop as an economy and society,there will be advantages if we are willing to invest and value our citizens/workers,but time will tell how this pans out.

PutTheWheelieBinsOut
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by PutTheWheelieBinsOut » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:07 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Hodge taking no prisoners and not backing down, and explaining it all rather well.

Course if you still want to believe that non-Jews know what anti-semitism is better than a Jew, then knock yourself out.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Oh this is interesting...

Course if you still want to believe yourself and Margaret Hodge know what anti-semitism is better than 30 Jewish organisations world wide, then knock yourself out

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/30jewishgroupsbds/amp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by South West Claret. » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:12 pm

Some confusing anti Jews with anti Zionism?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:17 pm

Yup, there are others who think differently to Margaret Hodge and vast majority of Jews of Great Britain and Europe.

But that doesn't change the fact that the Jewish membership of the Labour party isn't a massive fan of this, which if you read the attached article you'd understand why.

I see that the NEC are looking at it again so hopefully common sense will break out.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:40 pm

.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by quoonbeatz » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:54 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh, this is interesting

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4566_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
absolutely the right thing to do, just needs fast-tracking.

if some people want to give up their rights, that's their call but it shouldn't mean everyone else loses theirs.

it should also be extended so that your kids get the same rights, making the parents accountable.
These 2 users liked this post: Lancasterclaret nil_desperandum

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:37 am

Exactly what rights are we supposed to be losing?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:40 am

Peak Brexiteer response there it has to be said.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:42 am

That's a sagely informative retort :roll:

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:48 am

Your reply deserved nothing less.

Maybe you need to do some research into this Brexit thingy you clearly support?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Tall Paul » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:40 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Exactly what rights are we supposed to be losing?
How about the right to freely travel around Europe? Or the right to bring back as much cheap booze and fags as we can carry when we come home?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:44 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Your reply deserved nothing less.

Maybe you need to do some research into this Brexit thingy you clearly support?
When someone asks a question the whole idea normally/usually is to expect a answer in return not to be answering a question before the initial answer has even been answered! You clearly don't have the answer for the question & now you are using a deflection tactic to deviate from the initial question - Exactly what rights are we supposed to be losing???? Why bother even cohesively articulating a well considered reply, it's far easier to just ask me another question. :lol:

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:52 pm

Come off it.

You think i don't know what rights we lose when we leave the European Union?

You clearly haven't a clue, but voted for it anyway.

Which is why I called it a peak brexit reply.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:57 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Come off it.

You think i don't know what rights we lose when we leave the European Union?

You clearly haven't a clue, but voted for it anyway.

Which is why I called it a peak brexit reply.
Well that was the question? I'll try again, this is the last time though (you're taking the Mickey) Exactly what rights are we supposed to be losing??? :roll:

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:01 pm

I'm comfortable in my knowledge of the subject

You are clearly comfortable in your ignorance.

Like I said, you couldn't be more a peak Brexit voter if you tried.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by SonofPog » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:04 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Well that was the question? I'll try again, this is the last time though (you're taking the Mickey) Exactly what rights are we supposed to be losing??? :roll:
Two years after the debate and you ask a question like that and expect to be taken seriously?

Okay... Whatever, well here goes.

http://bfy.tw/J6nG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:29 pm

What do we think of this take on what leading brexiteers are looking to achieve? Would you say this represents 'taking back control'?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ain-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by thatdberight » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:51 pm

AndrewJB wrote:What do we think of this take on what leading brexiteers are looking to achieve? Would you say this represents 'taking back control'?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ain-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So the TPP which includes such uncivilised backwaters as Japan, Australia, New Zealand and Canada is bad? But Trump's against it (certainly for the USA) - although predictably enough the Guardian seems to lay the credit for that withdrawal at Bernie Sanders' door. And TTIP is bad? But the EU was moving headlong towards it at one stage. And we're leaving the EU, right? Anyway, TTIP was stopped by - take your pick;
Thilo Bode https://www.politico.eu/article/the-man ... ree-trade/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Activists (and certainly not Trump) https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nald-trump" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Trump https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/do ... 43706.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Not Merkel - she likes it https://www.dw.com/en/angela-merkel-wel ... a-39446579" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/adam-h ... 28774.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
France http://www.euronews.com/2016/08/30/fran ... -eu-and-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:10 pm

thatdberight wrote:So the TPP which includes such uncivilised backwaters as Japan, Australia, New Zealand and Canada is bad? But Trump's against it (certainly for the USA) - although predictably enough the Guardian seems to lay the credit for that withdrawal at Bernie Sanders' door. And TTIP is bad? But the EU was moving headlong towards it at one stage. And we're leaving the EU, right? Anyway, TTIP was stopped by - take your pick;
Thilo Bode https://www.politico.eu/article/the-man ... ree-trade/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Activists (and certainly not Trump) https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nald-trump" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Trump https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/do ... 43706.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Not Merkel - she likes it https://www.dw.com/en/angela-merkel-wel ... a-39446579" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brexit https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/adam-h ... 28774.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
France http://www.euronews.com/2016/08/30/fran ... -eu-and-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
One of the things I don't like about the EU has been their willingness to forge ahead without much public oversight in trade deals like this. Trade deals in which we lower our standards, or give large corporations the power to limit or reverse democratic decision-making is bad. For me the EU as a group of democratic countries should stand as a bastion against excessive corporate power. The power of the EU could force big companies to pay much higher taxes than they do, or impose stronger employment rights, or insist on greater investment within the EU in exchange for access to our markets - for example.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:12 pm

Tall Paul wrote:How about the right to freely travel around Europe? Or the right to bring back as much cheap booze and fags as we can carry when we come home?
What if you don't go abroad nor smoke & drink.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by martin_p » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:14 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:What if you don't go abroad nor smoke & drink.
What if you don’t?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:16 pm

In that event nothing would be lost.

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