David Davis resigns

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Jakubclaret
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:33 pm

I think dsr needs to be answering that question for himself don’t you? What would you exactly like me to answer the football analogy or the algorithms?
This user liked this post: nil_desperandum

aggi
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:33 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:If you're pledging to "retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union". That clearly means you accept the existing relationship , between the EU and the UK will change. I.e. not in the single market/ customs union. Otherwise Labour's manifesto would have stated that. If you struggle to understand the implication of the wording in the manifesto here's some sources I've found that help to clarify for you.

"Jeremy Corbyn insists UK cannot remain in single market after Brexit"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ter-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Immediately after the election, John McDonnell said “I think people will interpret membership of the single market as not respecting that referendum.” This was consistent with Labour’s manifesto, which promised to retain the “benefits or the single market and the customs union” without being a member of either.

That's Labour's top 2 saying it.

This is the New Statesman saying it-

"On 23 June 2016, voters were simply asked if they would like to remain a member of the EU or leave it. But the Labour manifesto in 2017 was a hard Brexit manifesto. It promised to leave the European Union by “accepting the result”, and that “freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union”. By definition for freedom of movement to end, we will have to leave the single market, since, since, as the EU’s chief negotiator has observed, the four freedoms are indivisble.

So Michel Barnier says, if as Labour did, pledge to end free movement of people, you have to leave the single market


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... ard-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So thats the Labour leader, the Shadow chancellor, the EUs chief negotiator, Michel Barnier and the New Statesman all saying that Labour pledged to leave the customs union/ single market.

Oh and Ringo Mcartney.

But not aggi!

"Labour would take Britain out of the EU single market, Jeremy Corbyn says"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 20%251%24s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Independent says it.

But not aggi.

Labour List says so.

"Labour conference was right to block a vote on membership of the single market."

https://labourlist.org/2017/11/the-sing ... -anywhere/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So thats the Labour leader, the Shadow chancellor, the EUs chief negotiator, Michel Barnier and the New Statesman The Independent and Labour List all saying that Labour pledged to leave the customs union/ single market.

and Ringo Mcartney.

But definately definately not aggi!!
That's a lot of words to not answer I'm sure you can point out where in the manifesto it did say that though

I did like this link though https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 20%251%24s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; where the article actually said Labour’s 2017 election manifesto pledged to focus on “retaining the benefits of the single market and the customs union” but was not explicit on whether Britain would actually remain inside the institutions.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:42 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Can you explain why I need any help with numbers?
I don't even understand why dsr is pursuing this point.
Have you ever heard of a "6 pointer" in football, when you can only get 3 points for a win?
It's exactly the same point.
Wigan beat us - they got 3 points, but that put them 6 ahead of where they would have been had we taken the 3 points.
It's exactly the same when it comes to a vote. If 3 people change sides then it makes a net difference of 6.
As in my example: a majority of 1000 is eradicated if 500 people change sides.
In General elections the swing from one party to another is always the crucial equation that analysts and parties look for. That's why we get lists of key seats where a tiny percentage swing results in a change of MP.
At the referendum the margin was 3.8%, so there is no argument that if just over 1.9% had voted the other way, (i.e. a 1.9% swing) - then the result would have been the opposite.
(I'm not making any political or anti-brexit statement, just simply giving you the numbers. So in what sense - Jakub - could Ms Vorderman explain this more clearly or reach a different mathematical conclusion to me?)
Hi nil_d, so all we are saying is that a majority of 3.8% requires a swing of more than 1.9% to change the outcome of the referendum.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:43 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Can you explain why I need any help with numbers?
I don't even understand why dsr is pursuing this point.
Have you ever heard of a "6 pointer" in football, when you can only get 3 points for a win?
It's exactly the same point.
Wigan beat us - they got 3 points, but that put them 6 ahead of where they would have been had we taken the 3 points.
It's exactly the same when it comes to a vote. If 3 people change sides then it makes a net difference of 6.
As in my example: a majority of 1000 is eradicated if 500 people change sides.
In General elections the swing from one party to another is always the crucial equation that analysts and parties look for. That's why we get lists of key seats where a tiny percentage swing results in a change of MP.
At the referendum the margin was 3.8%, so there is no argument that if just over 1.9% had voted the other way, (i.e. a 1.9% swing) - then the result would have been the opposite.
(I'm not making any political or anti-brexit statement, just simply giving you the numbers. So in what sense - Jakub - could Ms Vorderman explain this more clearly or reach a different mathematical conclusion to me?)
If you gave a monkey a typewriter and let it type for an infinite amount of time, it would eventually write the entire works of Shakespeare’s literature; that doesn’t make the monkey intelligent, nor does it make Shakespeare, it’s just random chance.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by dsr » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:46 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Can you explain why I need any help with numbers?
I don't even understand why dsr is pursuing this point.
Have you ever heard of a "6 pointer" in football, when you can only get 3 points for a win?
It's exactly the same point.
Wigan beat us - they got 3 points, but that put them 6 ahead of where they would have been had we taken the 3 points.
It's exactly the same when it comes to a vote. If 3 people change sides then it makes a net difference of 6.
As in my example: a majority of 1000 is eradicated if 500 people change sides.
In General elections the swing from one party to another is always the crucial equation that analysts and parties look for. That's why we get lists of key seats where a tiny percentage swing results in a change of MP.
At the referendum the margin was 3.8%, so there is no argument that if just over 1.9% had voted the other way, (i.e. a 1.9% swing) - then the result would have been the opposite.
(I'm not making any political or anti-brexit statement, just simply giving you the numbers. So in what sense - Jakub - could Ms Vorderman explain this more clearly or reach a different mathematical conclusion to me?)
All of that is correct. But I still don't see how you get from that, that the winning margin was 1.9% (or as 1fatclaret claimed 1.8%). The winning margin was 3.8% because the winning side got 3.8% more votes. It really is that simple. To give another example, if candidate 1 gets 10,000 votes and candidate 2 gets 9,999 votes, the winning margin is 1 vote. Not half a vote.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:47 pm

aggi wrote:That's a lot of words to not answer I'm sure you can point out where in the manifesto it did say that though

I did like this link though https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 20%251%24s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; where the article actually said Labour’s 2017 election manifesto pledged to focus on “retaining the benefits of the single market and the customs union” but was not explicit on whether Britain would actually remain inside the institutions.
Oh dear.

If you struggle to understand the implication of the wording in the manifesto and you still don't understand it after reading the sources I've found that should have helped to clarify it for you. I'm afraid I have to end it here.
Simply trying to pretend you don't know what Labour's manifesto pledge wording means, simply doesn't wash.

Here's a final help.

A clip showing the Labour party leader Jeremy Corbyn saying in plain and simple terms what the manifesto pledge meant.

"When we leave the EU , we leave the single market, therefore, freedom of movement ends"

https://youtu.be/g4okLzPWPAE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not going down a rabbit hole with you once again simply because your intellect is limiting your ability to comprehend the English language.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:56 pm

So we're agreed, it isn't in the manifesto wording. I know you like to live in a world where everything is black and white but there is a reason why these things are left deliberately vague.

The manifesto could have been explicit and said what you interpret it as saying. It didn't in order to leave this flexibility. I guess your intellect is probably limiting your ability to understand these nuances.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ksrclaret » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:59 pm

Time for bed now Ringo, nearly the end of term for you so there'll be plenty of time to spend your summer holidays on here making the place look untidy.

Have you had your sports day yet?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:06 am

aggi wrote:So we're agreed, it isn't in the manifesto wording. I know you like to live in a world where everything is black and white but there is a reason why these things are left deliberately vague.

The manifesto could have been explicit and said what you interpret it as saying. It didn't in order to leave this flexibility. I guess your intellect is probably limiting your ability to understand these nuances.
Fatally for you it isn't "me interpreting it as saying" it's the leader of the Labour party. His deputy. Michel Barnier and the 2017 LABOUR PARTY CONFERENCE!!!

So you carry on pretending you don't understand the wording and that "we're agreed". But let's agree on one thing that when it comes to manifestos you really do struggle.

Your inability to extrapolate the meaning of a simple paragraph, taken from a manifesto. A manifesto that was designed for general consumption and be understood by the masses. Explains why you voted Remain.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:11 am

ksrclaret wrote:Time for bed now Ringo, nearly the end of term for you so there'll be plenty of time to spend your summer holidays on here making the place look untidy.
I wouldn't want to step on anybody's toes. You're doing a fine job on here already. You hang on in there tiger!

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by aggi » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:02 am

Well that's kind of the point, you're having to extrapolate the meaning.

By the way, you do realise that the vote tonight was about the customs union and everything you've linked to was about the single market. Your ire at those politicians may have been misplaced.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Greenmile » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:44 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:The trouble is that the media, think tanks and politicians are so liberal they shut down any debate on this topic and suffer from confirmation bias and group think.

I’m a qualified economist (though it’s as an accountant that I have generally made a living). I tend to keep things simple, thus what seems to be the case, usually is.

I’d simply make these points:
  • 1. I made a mistake in an earlier tweet, it was since 2004 that Poland et al joined the EU, and since then our GDP per capita has not risen much if at all, whereas Germany has and the US has shot up. That is 14 years.
    2. Simple supply and demand economics would suggest that if worker numbers go up, wages go down. We are at the point in the economic cycle when companies should be short of workers and this pushes up wages, but it isn’t happening - because there isn’t a shortfall.
    3. Not only that but companies have little incentive to invest in training and development, pay full time wages (they prefer a flexible workforce of part timers), improve working conditions to attract workers, and negotiate with unions. Why should they - there is an endless supply of cheap labour.
    4. That means very, very low productivity - a huge problem for our economy (as is those same migrants sending much of the money home instead of reinvesting it in our economy).
    5. The Phillips Curve is the thing that is meant to prove wages should be rising. But it applies to closed systems. Ours is open, with a never ending labour supply. It is an economic anomaly (not unique, but rare).
    6. Governments have a perverse incentive to promote GDP growth, not GDP per capita. It makes them look good. We are NOT booming. Far from it (prior to the Brexit vote).
That’s why I feel certain that mass low skilled migration is very, very bad for ordinary British workers. That, as Remainers like to do, is focused on economic issues. Add cultural and social issues and the effect is devastating. A steady decline in quality of life for many people. Many justifiably think this adds to our culture, but we have to accept many do not.

Who knows though, maybe I’m wrong? Maybe I’m a soft touch? I just go with my conscience on how to vote and get a bit naffed off when the virtue signallers imply they are somehow more caring than I am. They just think differently, that’s all.
I should have stopped reading after your first sentence - in what world is our media liberal? The Sun and The Mail, along with their Sunday versions, are the top 4 selling papers in this country. And our politicians? We’ve been through the best part of a decade under one of the most right wing Tory parties in memory, propped up by a bunch of religious maniacs who don’t even believe in evolution, and the Overton window has shifted considerably. The country is currently effectively being run by that well known liberal, Jacob Rees Mogg, ffs.

You must be one of those people who looks at Trump or Duterte and thinks “they have some good ideas, but they’re a bit liberal for my liking”.

I did stop reading after your second sentence - “I’m a qualified economist, so my opinion is much more important than anyone else’s, even though it’s not backed up by any facts, I don’t think austerity and the GFC affected working class wage growth, and I still seem to believe in supply-side economics”. Haven’t you heard? We’re all sick of experts.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by martin_p » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:41 am

aggi wrote:Well that's kind of the point, you're having to extrapolate the meaning.

By the way, you do realise that the vote tonight was about the customs union and everything you've linked to was about the single market. Your ire at those politicians may have been misplaced.
Aggi, just remember Ringo’s little manifesto formula when discussing such issues (and he does bang on about manifestos an awful lot)

Tory party doing something not in their manifesto = political opportunism

Anyone else doing something not in their manifesto = undemocratic

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:09 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:I could be wrong on this. But I reckon the vast majority of MPs who voted tonight, were elected on a manifesto pledge of leaving the single market/customs union.
This is me saying "the vast majority of MPs who voted tonight, "

I was wasn't singling out Labour Mps and ignoring Tory mps who've voted against their manifesto pledges. I was saying BOTH.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:12 am

martin_p wrote:Aggi, just remember Ringo’s little manifesto formula when discussing such issues (and he does bang on about manifestos an awful lot)

Tory party doing something not in their manifesto = political opportunism

Anyone else doing something not in their manifesto = undemocratic
Oh dear Marty. You've stepped in some one else's argument , again! Claiming I was going easy on the Tories.

I clearly was saying both lots of both parties were acting undemocratically

Wrong again. Marty.

Ringo McCartney 9 Martin p 0

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by martin_p » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:13 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:This is me saying "the vast majority of MPs who voted tonight, "

I was wasn't singling out Labour Mps and ignoring Tory mps who've voted against their manifesto pledges. I was saying BOTH.
So political opportunism rather than undemocratic then. Help me out Wrongo, when is it one rather than the other?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:14 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Anna Soubrey.

Voted for the EU referendum.

Has a constituency that voted to Leave

Re-elected on a manifesto pledge of leaving the single market/ customs union, ending free movement of people, and the juridstiction of the ECJ.

I reckon her memorys been affected by saying "easy on the tonic steward" once too often.....
This is me saying Anna Soubrey , a TORY, is undemocratic Marty.

Like I say

9.0

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:14 am

martin_p wrote:So political opportunism rather than undemocratic then. Help me out Wrongo, when is it one rather than the other?
You need help

9.0

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by martin_p » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:21 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:You need help

9.0
I do! Your argument seems inconsistent and you can’t explain it. Come on, help me out, when is it undemocratic and when is it political opportunism?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:29 am

Greenmile wrote:I should have stopped reading after your first sentence - in what world is our media liberal? The Sun and The Mail, along with their Sunday versions, are the top 4 selling papers in this country. And our politicians? We’ve been through the best part of a decade under one of the most right wing Tory parties in memory, propped up by a bunch of religious maniacs who don’t even believe in evolution, and the Overton window has shifted considerably. The country is currently effectively being run by that well known liberal, Jacob Rees Mogg, ffs.

You must be one of those people who looks at Trump or Duterte and thinks “they have some good ideas, but they’re a bit liberal for my liking”.

I did stop reading after your second sentence - “I’m a qualified economist, so my opinion is much more important than anyone else’s, even though it’s not backed up by any facts, I don’t think austerity and the GFC affected working class wage growth, and I still seem to believe in supply-side economics”. Haven’t you heard? We’re all sick of experts.
Hi Greenmile, Crosspool can look after himself on this board, but I'd thought I'd comment on your post.

Don't you think that there's more than a little exaggeration in your post: 8 years of (I) coalition government for 5 years and (ii) 3 years Conservatives, split between Cameron and May; and you describe this as "the best part of a decade under one of the most right wing Tory parties in memory.... " have you forgotten the "Thatcher years?"

And, as I read Crosspool, he's saying he has a degree in Economics (I assume that's what he means by "qualified") and now works as an accountant, (that's not a rare career path) and then makes some comments about how "economics" has worked since John Maynard Keynes proposed his understanding of "supply and demand." That's where Crosspool get's what you call his "not backed up by any facts...."

The "experts" we are all sick of are the ones who make pronouncements, but don't back up the forecasts by any explanation of how they reach their conclusions. Those who understand this area of econometrics can understand the calculations and the political choices that the "experts" have made to reach their conclusions.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by quoonbeatz » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:34 am

ringo is the only idiot who drags people down to his level but still can't beat them with all his experience.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by burnleymik » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:40 am

aggi wrote:So we're agreed, it isn't in the manifesto wording. I know you like to live in a world where everything is black and white but there is a reason why these things are left deliberately vague.

The manifesto could have been explicit and said what you interpret it as saying. It didn't in order to leave this flexibility. I guess your intellect is probably limiting your ability to understand these nuances.

You are playing semantics here. Before the GE Labour leadership did make it clear that they would honour the referendum result, including ending FOM. Essentially he is absolutely correct that most of the MPs have voted against the pledges they made at the GE.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by martin_p » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:02 am

Anyone who doesn’t recognise the last week for what it is, i.e. power politics, is misunderstanding the situation.

None of this is about manifestos, or ‘the will of the people’ or what’s best for the British public. It all about the who controls the Tory party with the other parties sat on the sidelines happy to take whatever action will hel cause the implosion in the Tory party which looks increasingly likely.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:44 am

.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:46 am

Every single minority in the world is protected by this new Labour policy ITBYW, except Jews.

Well done

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:38 am

EU signs trade agreement with Japan.

Does Japan have to sign up to:
- Freedom of movement? NO
- Single Market? NO
- Customs Union? NO
- European Court of Justice? NO
- The EU's "common rulebook"? NO
- Paying £40 Billion? NO

...so why should we?

This can't be right can it? I didn't want to link the full Daily Mail article as it offends people on here.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:44 am

Great news.

Shame we are leaving the EU as our FTA won't be as good as theirs is because we are a smaller market.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Tribesmen » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:46 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:EU signs trade agreement with Japan.

Does Japan have to sign up to:
- Freedom of movement? NO
- Single Market? NO
- Customs Union? NO
- European Court of Justice? NO
- The EU's "common rulebook"? NO
- Paying £40 Billion? NO

...so why should we?

This can't be right can it? I didn't want to link the full Daily Mail article as it offends people on here.
To be very honest I don't thing the EU cares about what you lot do .

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:50 am

.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:54 am

Fine, tell me where I'm wrong.

Thats the line being taken by Jews today.

All of them.

Labour don't want to deal with the anti-semitism because too many of those closest to the dear leader are completely tainted by it.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:55 am

Tribesmen wrote:To be very honest I don't thing the EU cares about what you lot do .
I don't either, it's either their way or the highway.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:11 am

.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by quoonbeatz » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:11 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:EU signs trade agreement with Japan.

Does Japan have to sign up to:
- Freedom of movement? NO
- Single Market? NO
- Customs Union? NO
- European Court of Justice? NO
- The EU's "common rulebook"? NO
- Paying £40 Billion? NO

...so why should we?

This can't be right can it? I didn't want to link the full Daily Mail article as it offends people on here.
japan doesn't have the irish border issue.

japan is miles away from europe.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:15 am

The Canary?

Jeez. Thats about as objective as you can get.

I follow Guido Fawkes on twitter, the ultimate right wing nut but I draw the line at the Canary. It is that bad.

The Jews, you know, the ones who this is designed to protect, think its a bad idea because they know better what anti-semitism is than a bunch of non-jews.

That is unarguable, unless you are in the Labour Party.

Lancasterclaret
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:19 am

And its all so silly as well.

This is so basic, and it will cost them votes and give even more ammunition to their opponents.

What is wrong with accepting the definition of anti-semitism accepted by everybody else in the world?

Quickenthetempo
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:28 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:

The Jews, you know, the ones who this is designed to protect, think its a bad idea because they know better what anti-semitism is than a bunch of non-jews.
What's a bunch of non jews? I'm offended on their part.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by tiger76 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:44 am

It never rains but it pours,in the week the tories should be on the back foot,Labour continues to score own goals,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44871628 If Woodcock stands again whenever the next election is,surely this will be an easy Conservative gain,due to a split Labour vote.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:28 pm

burnleymik wrote:You make some very valid points, but if you are trying to tell me the EU has no impact then we are definitely going to disagree. The majority of EU migrants are low skilled workers and that HAS to have an effect on the jobs market, housing and wages, if not much wider implications.

The EU is another layer of government we don't want or need. We want people directly accountable to the people and not indirectly accountable to MEP's. The protectionism and tarriff barriers also have a detrimental effect to British consumers, we pay more simply for the protectionism of big business.

There are more ways in which the EU affects our every day lives.
Again you're laying the blame on the EU for what is the fault of our own governments. The policy of every government for the last forty years has been to deregulate the labour market as much as possible, and has been away from the idea of Full Employment. These were conscious choices by democratically elected UK governments. If it were the EU then we'd see the same problems in Germany, Sweden, and France. We don't because they have more robust work regulations.

I'm not saying the EU is perfect, but when you're looking for something to blame for the fact child poverty is going up, the NHS is in crisis, education is underfunded, and housing in shortage; why blame the EU when you have successive governments that have cut so much spending on these things while handing out tax breaks to the rich?
This user liked this post: JohnMcGreal

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by JohnMcGreal » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:12 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Again you're laying the blame on the EU for what is the fault of our own governments. The policy of every government for the last forty years has been to deregulate the labour market as much as possible, and has been away from the idea of Full Employment. These were conscious choices by democratically elected UK governments. If it were the EU then we'd see the same problems in Germany, Sweden, and France. We don't because they have more robust work regulations.

I'm not saying the EU is perfect, but when you're looking for something to blame for the fact child poverty is going up, the NHS is in crisis, education is underfunded, and housing in shortage; why blame the EU when you have successive governments that have cut so much spending on these things while handing out tax breaks to the rich?
Exactly this. It's also worth pointing out that the coward, David Cameron, deflected attention away from his own political inadequacies for years by pinning them on the EU, which made his call for a referendum all the more idiotic.

aggi
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by aggi » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:56 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Every single minority in the world is protected by this new Labour policy ITBYW, except Jews.

Well done
Really? Can you point to some evidence for this? I can't imagine that they have specific policies for every minority so it seems unlikely they've carved out antisemitism.

From what I've seen it appears that the additional policy covering antisemitism specifically hasn't been agreed yet with the issue being whether to take the International Holocaust Board definition (although it seems that despite the name only 30 or so countries do that) or whether that definition doesn't do enough to separate criticism of Israel from antisemitism. (Having read the definition I'd say it probably does but you can see why others think that may not be the case.)

For political expediency they should probably have just gone with it because otherwise it provides political ammunition for outrageous statements such as Every single minority in the world is protected by this new Labour policy ..., except Jews

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:02 pm

Yup

Cos you've just pointed it out in your tweet.

there is nothing like that for any other minority. But Jews are different in Labour eyes.

Who is a better judge of what is anti-semeitism?

Actual Jews or the Labour Party?

And if you check my post up above, I say exactly how silly this all is as it could all be avoided by adopting the same one adopted by everyone else. Which is what the overwhelming amount of Labour members want as well. But not the leadership.

That is damning to be honest.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by aggi » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:03 pm

burnleymik wrote:You are playing semantics here. Before the GE Labour leadership did make it clear that they would honour the referendum result, including ending FOM. Essentially he is absolutely correct that most of the MPs have voted against the pledges they made at the GE.
Agreed, it's absolutely semantics. Labour left themselves some wriggle room. Personally I think that is sensible and I think things may have been a bit easier now if we'd done the same with the "red lines" which are causing so many problems. Others (such as Ringo) are a bit more idealistic and probably view it as duplicitous but I'm a bit more rooted in reality and less in ideology.

There hasn't been any suggestion that we wouldn't still be leaving the EU or FOM wouldn't be ended, the vote was about the customs union and there weren't any pledges made by Labour that we'd be leaving that.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:07 pm

Aggi, just look at everything that has been posted by the Jews on this.

Its not a good look for Labour, even the vast majority of their members think its barmy, but the leadership doesn't.

Now what conclusions would a Jew draw from that?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:09 pm

Haven't Labour pledged to stay in the customs union now anyway?

Solves the border issues and makes a lot more sense for business.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:10 pm

The good news keeps piling up!

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1019594403525136384" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by quoonbeatz » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:24 pm

getting dafter by the day now.

the fact that no deal will be so bad that households need to prepare for it just shows what an almighty **** up this is.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by martin_p » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:34 pm

Don’t worry about it, it’ll all be branded ‘Project Fear’.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by aggi » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:38 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Aggi, just look at everything that has been posted by the Jews on this.

Its not a good look for Labour, even the vast majority of their members think its barmy, but the leadership doesn't.

Now what conclusions would a Jew draw from that?
The Jews is a pretty broad area, there are Jewish groups that also criticise the IHRA definition too. You've not pointed to anything that supports Every single minority in the world is protected by this new Labour policy ..., except Jews. So far as I can see Jews are covered the same as any other race by the labour party, the issues are with specific definitions of antisemitism as it relates to Israel.

I'm not saying it's not an issue and politically they've cocked up but hyperbolic statements with little basis in fact such as yours don't help a reasoned discussion.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by aggi » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:39 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:The good news keeps piling up!

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1019594403525136384" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The EU have been doing this for a while (I seem to remember David Davis complaining it was unfair or something).

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by JohnMcGreal » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:39 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:getting dafter by the day now.

the fact that no deal will be so bad that households need to prepare for it just shows what an almighty **** up this is.
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