Secondary Schools In Burnley

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:32 am

It’s unbelievable just how wrong they got secondary education in Burnley. Good schools were replaced by poor schools! Not a single ‘academy’ is an improvement on what it replaced

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/bur ... -1-9255587" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Foulthrow · Post by **Foulthrow** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:04 am

You can't just become an 'academy' and expect that to be some kind of magic wand.

A good, sorry 'outstanding', school can only be so if the kids are 'outstanding'. It's got nothing to do with the buildings, the name, the teachers. Nothing.

Schools are always going to be in a difficult position in Burnley because it is simply not a leafy middle class town. Dress it up however you like.

Education is a mess because it has been too much of a political football for too long. Much like the NHS. The political parties see it as something that they can differ on, that they can change. So they interfere, change all of the priorities, set different targets. All that we have seen is more money being spent on 'management' and not the kids. All these headteachers complaining about a lack of funding are probably on very nice financial packages (which they've probably more or less set for themselves) and are backed up by an ever growing 'senior leadership team' who are on similar money to invent nonsense schemes. Meanwhile the people who are actually teaching or supporting children on a day-to-day basis are being made redundant.

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:13 am

Sorry but that's nonsense Foulthrow. There are a number of outstanding academies in Bradford, for example, and having worked in a Bradford school, I can confirm they are not full of outstanding kids from leafy middle class families. Similar stories can be found in many other cities across the country.

The problem with the education in Burnley is the stagnant leadership teams and teachers. It's generally an area ignored by the council and therefore the flow of new ideas and engaging teaching methods has dried up, meaning teaching is exactly the same as it was 20 years ago and is not informed by the latest research. The whole system needs overhauling in Burnley and in many other smaller towns.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:16 am

Very disappointing for BT - headteacher took over a shambles of a school and brought some much needed discipline in and improved things across the board.
Unfortunately the school struggles to attract good teachers and with a few good teachers also leaving this becomes very difficult. The deterioration in results has been visible over the last 2 or 3 years so a poor OFSTED was pretty inevitable.
Just like a few years ago it is time for sweeping changes in the senior management team and probably the head teacher. Most schools are only as good as their head teacher

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:21 am

Must of the schools seemed to be doing fine before they decided to change things

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:53 am

MRG wrote:Must of the schools seemed to be doing fine before they decided to change things

I have very serious issues with the way the new schools were set up (and the way some of them have gone), but I'm not sure that overall the statistics would support that statement.
Having said that - a good school shouldn't be judged on academic results alone.

woody · Post by **woody** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:54 am

How well schools perform is very much down to the head teacher. If the head is good they will attract good teachers. The best example of this is the old Ivy Bank School under Mr Ball. Excellent Offsted reports, great results for the majority of students , good performing sports teams and drama etc etc. He left and was replaced by someone else and within 18 months over 50% of the teachers had left ! Within 3 years they were in Special Measures.
It is very much down to the teachers .

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:00 pm

woody wrote:How well schools perform is very much down to the head teacher. If the head is good they will attract good teachers. The best example of this is the old Ivy Bank School under Mr Ball. Excellent Offsted reports, great results for the majority of students , good performing sports teams and drama etc etc. He left and was replaced by someone else and within 18 months over 50% of the teachers had left ! Within 3 years they were in Special Measures.
It is very much down to the teachers .

I believe he was head hunted!

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:07 pm

Maybe the other schools are better suited to run how OFSTED want them, which is handling all the red tape.

Not teaching kids.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:10 pm

I went to Ivy Bank in the first year they merged with Habergham, Ivy was predominantly a white school, Habergham the opposite, race riots daily and knives everywhere. People from other school used to jump the fence to get involved in the action, 2 lads from a different school hammered some muslim lad with baseball bats during dinner break. Overpopulated, classrooms in portacabins and the majority of teachers were out of their depth.

woody · Post by **woody** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:32 pm

MRG yes he was and no wonder he was a fantastic head teacher.

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:34 pm

A pretty depressing thread so far, someone please tell me some success stories of Burnley's schools today.

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:37 pm

Looking at them like for like, St Teds, St Hildas, Ivy Bank, what we got in return for these schools is criminal

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:42 pm

Foulthrow (post 2) is dead right. There's a myth that if you call a school an "academy" then suddenly it's miles better overnight. Well it ain't, because it's still the same children/students, families and teachers. The government actually created "academies" to wrest control of schools from local authorities as academies get their money directly from central government, which was purely a political move and has done little to actually make any school better. If a school gets better it's because of the leadership, the students, the parents and the staff and if they all work at it it will succeed and then you can call it (re brand???

) it anything you like!

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:45 pm

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/ne ... s/?ref=arc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:48 pm

Up here, the best comprehensive is now the biggest school in Lancashire and is an academy.

My kid isn't going to it, and one of the reasons is that its started to go downhill as its just so big. Its still a good school mind, but its got issues.

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:51 pm

MRG wrote:Looking at them like for like, St Teds, St Hildas, Ivy Bank, what we got in return for these schools is criminal

Completely agree. The buildings were falling apart and desperately needed updating, so if the BSF programme was used to just build the new schools education would surely be better now with the smaller class sizes and the consistency of good teaching. As it was, decisions were made to merge 8 schools into 5 larger schools, all of which have been in special measures I think at some point since 2006.

The only success has been the Sixth Form on the old Barden site, but even that is being decimated by government cuts to the sixth form provision at the moment.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:15 pm

Not sure the sixth form is a success - St Teds sixth form results were far better and a lot of the brighter kids now decide to go to Bacup & Rawtenstall or Cliheroe Grammar.

I agree the merger of the schools was a disaster but being involved as a governor of one of the schools at the time I can tell you there was plenty of resistance and people against it. Unfortunately there were also lots of influential people and bodies who wanted it to happen - and they were the ones making the final decision. Bodies like Salford Diocese and Lancashire CC. I met a lot of these people and when a few of us put forward opposition views they did not want to listen and ultimately they were the decision makers.

None of these people understood Burnley as a town and none of them are accountable now for the mess. The diocese is still making lots of stupid decisions and LCC are an embarrassment of an organisation

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:20 pm

Ironically enough one of the best performing and most popular schools in Burnley is the much-criticised free school, Burnley High School.
Good Ofsted reports, a really happy set of pupils and a strong headteachers and teaching staff all in a brand new state of the art building.
My eldest was one of the first kids there and he loves it

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:27 pm

Braindead wrote:Ironically enough one of the best performing and most popular schools in Burnley is the much-criticised free school, Burnley High School.
Good Ofsted reports, a really happy set of pupils and a strong headteachers and teaching staff all in a brand new state of the art building.
My eldest was one of the first kids there and he loves it

It has the best reputation in Burnley, but a lot of bullying there recently according to social media (mothers posting).

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:29 pm

And ultimately we won’t know how good the school is until the first set of GCSE results come through

TsarBomba · Post by **TsarBomba** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:33 pm

The demise of secondary schooling in Burnley is a travesty.

I was at Habergham in the mid to late ‘90’s, and I was fortunate that Mr Clayton was still the headteacher, and there was still a modicum of respect and discipline running through the school.

I could see though that by the early 00’s, things were on the slide. Mr Clayton had left along with the majority of the well established teachers, to be replaced by teachers straight out of teacher training. Their ‘teaching’ methods largely consisted of throwing us text books and getting us to read pages ourselves before answering the questions within.

And following on from KRBFC, things got so bad after the riots of 2001, that a petrol bomb was thrown across the school yard.

I’m glad I got out when I did.

SammyBoy · Post by **SammyBoy** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:56 pm

TsarBomba wrote:The demise of secondary schooling in Burnley is a travesty.

I was at Habergham in the mid to late ‘90’s, and I was fortunate that Mr Clayton was still the headteacher, and there was still a modicum of respect and discipline running through the school.

I could see though that by the early 00’s, things were on the slide. Mr Clayton had left along with the majority of the well established teachers, to be replaced by teachers straight out of teacher training. Their ‘teaching’ methods largely consisted of throwing us text books and getting us to read pages ourselves before answering the questions within.

And following on from KRBFC, things got so bad after the riots of 2001, that a petrol bomb was thrown across the school yard.

I’m glad I got out when I did.

I started at Habergham in 2001 and left in 2006, the year prior to the merger. Mr Clayton departed after my first semester so I studied through all of Stuart Smith's tenure. It was a still a good school right up until the end, and it consistently outperformed Ivy Bank. However, the merger was a disaster, which unfortunately my brother had to experience. I can confirm it was nothing to do with race though because the old Deputy Head confirmed to me Habergham was on average only 30% Asian or less in each year group, so the mixing of races worked for a long time before it joined with Ivy. It wasn't always total harmony but people still did well academically (myself included, thankfully).

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:59 pm

What's the school that was built near Towneley Park? They knocked a **** hole down in Towneley High, but is the replacement performing well?

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:47 pm

The problem is teachers are spending so much time filling forms in, assesing ,adhereing to xyz policy and the likes that are not getting the time to reach. Discipline or lack of it is a major issue and as been mentioned teachers are political football's. A teacher once told me that spent a few years getting to grips with the latest maths curriculum resources up then lo and behold new minister New curriculum. It she be like the Bank of England free from political interference. Let the poor sods do what they are trained to do teach with flare.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:20 pm

Plenty of working class family kids did ok in my time from an education in Burnley but then there was selection which is now frowned upon and I am told by my educationist friends rightly so. From what I have seen coming out of Uni there does seem to have been a levelling down rather than up; but that is just my experience. In one area of education.
One sees this also at BFC where the standard of literacy is so poor that the players we want to play for us cannot write their names on a contract!!!!

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:22 pm

SammyBoy wrote:I started at Habergham in 2001 and left in 2006, the year prior to the merger. Mr Clayton departed after my first semester so I studied through all of Stuart Smith's tenure. It was a still a good school right up until the end, and it consistently outperformed Ivy Bank. However, the merger was a disaster, which unfortunately my brother had to experience. I can confirm it was nothing to do with race though because the old Deputy Head confirmed to me Habergham was on average only 30% Asian or less in each year group, so the mixing of races worked for a long time before it joined with Ivy. It wasn't always total harmony but people still did well academically (myself included, thankfully).

It was race related, infact race was the only reason mass riots used to break out.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:46 pm

Teachers is definitely a big part.

I went to Barden. It was slated before i went. Usually by parents who knew nothing of the school.

Was an excellent school. Made a lot of good friends for life and am still in touch with many of the teachers. They were all excellent and knew exactly how to teach such a varied school ( with complete diverse backgrounds be it academically, socially or race / religion).

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:52 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Teachers is definitely a big part.

I went to Barden. It was slated before i went. Usually by parents who knew nothing of the school.

Was an excellent school. Made a lot of good friends for life and am still in touch with many of the teachers. They were all excellent and knew exactly how to teach such a varied school ( with complete diverse backgrounds be it academically, socially or race / religion).

Yes the teachers make a difference and in your era there were some good ones.different story in the sixties at barden though.... The majority being sadists...that said I never skived off.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:59 pm

KRBFC wrote:It was race related, infact race was the only reason mass riots used to break out.

I don't think you really get Sammy's point.
If 30% of the pupil population at Habergham was Asian heritage, and there were no real problems, why were there problems when it was amalgamated with a very friendly school with which it previously shared a boundary?
(Obviously it wasn't helped that grown ups were at the gates spreading BNP propaganda).

SammyBoy · Post by **SammyBoy** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:59 pm

KRBFC wrote:It was race related, infact race was the only reason mass riots used to break out.

When I was at Habergham there were never any “riots”, despite there being a mix of races (a roughly 3-1 White to Asian ratio). It may have been race related once Ivy Bank joined but prior to that it was relatively peaceful, there was the occasional bit of trouble but nothing serious.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:04 pm

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:10 pm

We already have far too many secondary schools in Burnley.
2 will be completely empty soon, and another has v few students.
So whilst it might be desirable to have more BFC involvement in schools the last thing we need is yet another building programme.
We will be paying for these empty buildings for years to come.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:13 pm

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:16 pm

If it be your will wrote:Could they not take over one of the empty ones? It was only a thought - I know it won't actually happen.

Well they could. But far better for them to get in partnership with one that is still open, and as you said, in the vicinity.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:29 pm

SammyBoy wrote:When I was at Habergham there were never any “riots”, despite there being a mix of races (a roughly 3-1 White to Asian ratio). It may have been race related once Ivy Bank joined but prior to that it was relatively peaceful, there was the occasional bit of trouble but nothing serious.

Yeah I'm talking about when the two schools merged together.

SammyBoy · Post by **SammyBoy** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:36 pm

KRBFC wrote:Yeah I'm talking about when the two schools merged together.

However, as demonstrated by my experience, race wasn't the sole factor if previously pupils of different heritages had studied together reasonably peacefully. IMO Gill Broom has a lot to answer for, she took an average school in Ivy Bank and turned it into a failing one by the time it merged with Habergham, then consequently ran the new one into the ground within a year.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:41 pm

SammyBoy wrote:However, as demonstrated by my experience, race wasn't the sole factor if previously pupils of different heritages had studied together reasonably peacefully. IMO Gill Broom has a lot to answer for, she took an average school in Ivy Bank and turned it into a failing one by the time it merged with Habergham, then consequently ran the new one into the ground within a year.

I think it was an over populated mess.

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/sec ... -1-1680921" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:45 pm

St Hilda’s Head Teacher was to blame for the debacle at BT. She wanted the merger. St Teds opposed it. She got the bishop on her side and they won. She then failed to manage the transition period and the merged school which at one point was on 3 different sites was an absolute shambles for 4 or 5 years.
All the kids there at the time suffered significantly. Teachers left in droves and she got a big pay rise out of it.
Absolute disgrace and directly responsible for ruining hundreds of kids education with no repercussions whatsoever.

The old schools did need a lot of work on them I agree. But bricks and motor do not make a good school. Take a look at an old school like Bacup & Rawtenstall Grammar. Old buildings, not great facilities (like a spanking new unused Astro turf pitch !) but consistently great teachers and great results. Knocks the spots off every school in Burnley but years ago St Teds was every bit as successful.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:51 pm

Think BT are very good at giving off the “we are super strict and the best school about” view to parents - and hen not actually following through with it.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:53 pm

TVC15 wrote:St Hilda’s Head Teacher was to blame for the debacle at BT. She wanted the merger. St Teds opposed it. She got the bishop on her side and they won. She then failed to manage the transition period and the merged school which at one point was on 3 different sites was an absolute shambles for 4 or 5 years.
All the kids there at the time suffered significantly. Teachers left in droves and she got a big pay rise out of it.
Absolute disgrace and directly responsible for ruining hundreds of kids education with no repercussions whatsoever.

The old schools did need a lot of work on them I agree. But bricks and motor do not make a good school. Take a look at an old school like Bacup & Rawtenstall Grammar. Old buildings, not great facilities (like a spanking new unused Astro turf pitch !) but consistently great teachers and great results. Knocks the spots off every school in Burnley but years ago St Teds was every bit as successful.

Yeah the BT lot had to get school buses to different classes at opposite ends of Burnley.

taio · Post by **taio** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:58 pm

TVC's description of Blessed Trinty's former head teacher is spot on based on my experience of my son's education there. Mr Varey came in and completely turned the school round and the first thing he did was instill discipline which had been heavily crictised when they were put into special measures. The change under his leadership was there for all to see and he had the teachers going the extra mile for students. Things may have changed in the last couple of years but Mr Varey deserves the opportunity to make the improvements necessary.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:33 pm

Luckily, my son finished at St.Theodores before Blessed Trinity came into being...the former Hilda's head got the top job at the new school in 2006 and began easing out some of the senior teachers from St Theodores, which left the new school with very few senior staff who'd taught boys...

I understand from someone who was a parent governor at the time that this was essentially the cause of the problems that bedevilled the school ... notwithstanding a rumour that a very senior female member of staff was spotted on Holiday hand in hand with a Catholic priest not too long after the school opened .....

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:50 pm

Mmmm yes. And even funnier their flight home was cancelled which meant that they missed the start of term - and everybody got to know about it.....allegedly of course !!!

You are correct about the transition though. She got rid of the best St Teds teachers - especially the senior more experienced ones who were the only ones who could control the boys. The situation that followed was that teachers who had taught girls all their lives were faced with trying to control 15 and 16 year old 6 foot hairy arsed boys....and many of the teachers could not cope.
The other thing she got completely wrong was to focus all of her dwindling number of good teachers on the year 11 pupils to try and keep up the results. This left the rest of the school which was split across 3 sites with poor supply teachers. She actually admitted to me that she had written off year 7 and year 8. They never had a chance of catching up. But she knew she could not last and would be long gone when they were reaching year 11.
I would say that what she did was professionally negligent. In most other sectors / industries she would have faced repercussions and been sacked much earlier. In education it can often take years and they then leave with a golden handshake.

chipbutty · Post by **chipbutty** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:28 pm

MRG wrote:It’s unbelievable just how wrong they got secondary education in Burnley. Good schools were replaced by poor schools! Not a single ‘academy’ is an improvement on what it replaced

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/bur ... -1-9255587" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Blessed Trinity is not an Academy, yet. Funny that the school has gone downhill in the past 12 months, while the Head has been off site trying to make the school an Academy...

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/ne ... demy_plan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:44 pm

The worst part of these new schools is they destroyed all the history.I went to Ted's and you had all the pictures of the football and cricket teams from the beginning along the long corridor.The art room was the same,which had one of mine on show,along side 20 years of other peoples art work.
All thrown in the skip when they knocked it down.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:46 pm

Flatline wrote:The worst part of these new schools is they destroyed all the history.I went to Ted's and you had all the pictures of the football and cricket teams from the beginning along the long corridor.The art room was the same,which had one of mine on show,along side 20 years of other peoples art work.
All thrown in the skip when they knocked it down.

Not the sports photos. They were going to be thrown in the bin. But i’ve got most of them now !

deanothedino · Post by **deanothedino** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:05 pm

KRBFC wrote:I went to Ivy Bank in the first year they merged with Habergham, Ivy was predominantly a white school, Habergham the opposite, race riots daily and knives everywhere. People from other school used to jump the fence to get involved in the action, 2 lads from a different school hammered some muslim lad with baseball bats during dinner break. Overpopulated, classrooms in portacabins and the majority of teachers were out of their depth.

What a load of b*llocks.

Habergham was also predominantly white, having some form of diversity doesn't make it the opposite.

Steddyman · Post by **Steddyman** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:20 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:We already have far too many secondary schools in Burnley.
2 will be completely empty soon, and another has v few students.
So whilst it might be desirable to have more BFC involvement in schools the last thing we need is yet another building programme.
We will be paying for these empty buildings for years to come.

BFC did investigate taking over Hameldon at the end of last year, but pulled out for some reason:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-l ... e-42284381" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bfcboyo · Post by **Bfcboyo** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:26 pm

KRBFC wrote:I went to Ivy Bank in the first year they merged with Habergham, Ivy was predominantly a white school, Habergham the opposite, race riots daily and knives everywhere. People from other school used to jump the fence to get involved in the action, 2 lads from a different school hammered some muslim lad with baseball bats during dinner break. Overpopulated, classrooms in portacabins and the majority of teachers were out of their depth.

Sounds horrific. What year was this?
Bloody portacabins. Wouldnt have happened in the old days.