Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

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Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Chip Harrison » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:24 pm

See link

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... r-44884913" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Spijed » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:26 pm

Trying to have their cake, I see!

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:27 pm

Bit of a misleading title. Should read ‘Manchester Students redecorate Student Union Wall’.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by gandhisflipflop » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:28 pm

Absolute sh1t stains of society.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Bertiebeehead » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:29 pm

All he did was make exceedingly good cakes!
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by CleggHall » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:32 pm

Fair enough they can paint whatever they like on the walls of the Students' Union building, I can see where they are coming from, a Union of diverse student backgrounds in a multi cultural city in 2018. A long way removed from Kipling's days.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by spadesclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:46 pm

CleggHall wrote: 2018. A long way removed from Kipling's days.
That is just it. We have moved on. But - Kipling was a man of his time, not of ours. Deleting him or his works is denying that he and his ideas ever existed. Much better to preserve his work and learn from it. It is our history and is part of what has got us where we are today.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Blackrod » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:10 pm

Can redecorate what they like but cannot change history. As said above a man of his time. Ironically some of the people are objecting because of his support for the British Empire yet they wouldn't be here studying if it wasn't for the British Empire.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:14 pm

You can't change history, you learn from it.

I sympathise with what they think they are doing, but it doesn't change anything.

Mind you, a slightly more realistic teaching of our history to our kids wouldn't go amiss it has to be said (saying that its definitely got a lot better from when I was at school)
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by JHargreaves » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:26 pm

And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed – if all records told the same tale – then the lie passed into history and became truth. "Who controls the past," ran the Party slogan, "controls the future: who controls the present controls the past." And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by LeadBelly » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:26 pm

I like a lot of his work; especially fond of "Barrack Room Ballads" ("Tommy" is spot on).
It seems to me that he was very interested in other cultures and made a lot of effort to understand them and admired things about them.

Perhaps the people defacing "his" poster can start a bonfire next with all the books that they dont approve of.

By the livin, gawd that made you, you're not a "better man" than Rudyard was Fatima Ali.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:27 pm

It appears that in a multicultural society, (something which the People were never asked if they actually wanted) every culture is encouraged to celebrate their tradition, their heritage and their history.

Except white British People......
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:30 pm

Misunderstanding history and erasing literature doesn't bode well but they're students, they're supposed to get angry and indignant. Anyway, I don't have to eat my lunch in there so they can put whatever they like on the walls.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by CleggHall » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:32 pm

But the Kipling poem had been written on a wall in the Student' Union very recently without consulting the wider student body. That was the mistake, the poem still exists as does Kipling's history but not newly painted on a wall in a building for 2018 students.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by BabylonClaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:33 pm

Kiplings peom is a bit of a supermacist approach to bringing "enlightenment" to imperial territories it is a bit outdated and the replacement peom from Maya Angelou is much more about the celebration of individuals kind of "enlightening" themselves i think its far more appropriate for today.
er.

Kipling is suggesting that imperial masters need to accept the responsibility to promote and build freedom which is a laudable message but is patronising in the extreme (a product of thr time ckearly). Maya Angelou is more about that freedom coming from within and through the struggle of the downtrodden - the human spirit will always rise even in the face of oppression.


Thats not to decry Kipling or his works but do we want to celebrate a top down push approach or encourage empowermemt of individuals? I know which i prefer and to simply slap this down as Kipling bashing is wrong.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:41 pm

That's a good post Babylon, although it's almost changed my mind on a subject which isn't what I come here for.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by BabylonClaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:42 pm

The Kipling peom was an odd choice to start with

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:50 pm

spadesclaret wrote:That is just it. We have moved on. But - Kipling was a man of his time, not of ours. Deleting him or his works is denying that he and his ideas ever existed. Much better to preserve his work and learn from it. It is our history and is part of what has got us where we are today.
No-one is deleting him or his works - that statement is as sensationalist as the very poorly worded BBC headline. The students have re-painted a wall which was recently decorated with a Kipling poem and decided to replace it with another poem. What is the issue?

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:50 pm

Isn't that the one celebrating Jameson who tried to start a coup d'etat in the Orange Free State?

You are not kidding if it is that one, cos he was Cecil Rhodes man, and that name is controversial to put it mildly.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:51 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:It appears that in a multicultural society, (something which the People were never asked if they actually wanted) every culture is encouraged to celebrate their tradition, their heritage and their history.

Except white British People......
Very predictable retort from the resident Little Englander.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:06 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Very predictable retort from the resident Little Englander.
Equally predictable retort from someone who clearly doesn't accept the idea of some body having a different world view to their self. So unaccepting, in fact, that they have to resort to name calling.....

Just another that, claims to LOVE diversity.

HATES diversity of opinion.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:45 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Equally predictable retort from someone who clearly doesn't accept the idea of some body having a different world view to their self. So unaccepting, in fact, that they have to resort to name calling.....

Just another that, claims to LOVE diversity.

HATES diversity of opinion.
Trot out your stock catchphrases all you like. I like diversity and I like diversity of opinion. If people want to get offended by students repainting a newly decorated wall in their student union then that’s their prerogative, I don’t have a problem with it.

I’m just pointing out how stupid it is to be upset by it. And using the term ‘Little Englander’ to describe you is hardly name calling. You’re practically the dictionary definition as proven by the post I quoted about White British people not being able to celebrate their culture or heritage.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Chip Harrison » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:45 pm

Interesting point Ringo, in that the British people were never asked if they wanted to live in a multi cultural society, but had it forced on them...Not saying I agree with that, but I can see why some people would think that and even be angry at it.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by ebby » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:46 pm

The world is being so policically correct these days, especially the UK. History cannot change, however the vocal minority are hell bent on this subject as there is nothing around for them to protest for at the moment.
The Vietnam War has ended as has the Ban the Bomb, so what next.
Is it any wonder that British Universities are failing to become the main choice for overseas students.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-44872808" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by DustyBawls » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:50 pm

That's exceedingly bad.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:53 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Trot out your stock catchphrases all you like. I like diversity and I like diversity of opinion. If people want to get offended by students repainting a newly decorated wall in their student union then that’s their prerogative, I don’t have a problem with it.

I’m just pointing out how stupid it is to be upset by it. And using the term ‘Little Englander’ to describe you is hardly name calling. You’re practically the dictionary definition as proven by the post I quoted about White British people not being able to celebrate their culture or heritage.
Kipling is part of white British heritage tradition and history. It's removal you "have no problem with it"

I do. But without childish name calling, I'm free to express my opinion that the exceptionalism applied to the white British and their history heritage and culture, is wrong and hypocritical.

Like it or lump it. I guess you'll choose that latter.

Marvellous.....
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:57 pm

Right Wing Nut Jobs Yesterday: You cant say or do anything nowadays without lefties taking offence - this country is going to the dogs

Right Wing Nut Jobs Today: I cant believe those lefty students have decided to do something to their own student union wall that I don't agree with - how dare they
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by ten bellies » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:59 pm

Might as well have a book burning whilst they're at it. That'll show 'im.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:02 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Right Wing Nut Jobs Yesterday: You cant say or do anything nowadays without lefties taking offence - this country is going to the dogs

Right Wing Nut Jobs Today: I cant believe those lefty students have decided to do something to their own student union wall that I don't agree with - how dare they
The left - I'm very tolerant. However I only tolerate views i agree with....

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:03 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Kipling is part of white British heritage tradition and history. It's removal you "have no problem with it"

I do. But without childish name calling, I'm free to express my opinion that the exceptionalism applied to the white British and their history heritage and culture, is wrong and hypocritical.

Like it or lump it. I guess you'll choose that latter.

Marvellous.....
I said I didn’t have a problem with people like you being upset about the wall being redecorated, it’s your prerogative. For what it’s worth I also don’t have a problem with the students redecorating a wall in their student union building that is more to their taste. I find it odd that anyone would, but again that’s your choice.

Referring to you as a Little Englander is not childish name calling, it is a fact evidenced by your postings on this forum.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:04 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:The left - I'm very tolerant. However I only tolerate views i agree with....
Rinse and repeat.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by ksrclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:09 pm

I bet you a tenner Ringo had never even heard of Kipling before this thread.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by CleggHall » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:42 pm

He had - Mr Kipling of have your cake and eat it fame, well known patron saint of Brexiters!

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by JohnMcGreal » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:51 pm

They've erased him from history? That's some feat. How did they manage to do that?

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by KeighleyClaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:53 pm

As a proud Manchester Graduate - I'd say well done.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by martin_p » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:54 pm

Not something I would have done, but it’s just students being students, nothing to see here.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by South West Claret. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:01 pm

ebby wrote: Is it any wonder that British Universities are failing to become the main choice for overseas students.
Is that not because of the increased fees in the UK?

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:06 pm

Chip Harrison wrote:Interesting point Ringo, in that the British people were never asked if they wanted to live in a multi cultural society, but had it forced on them...Not saying I agree with that, but I can see why some people would think that and even be angry at it.
This idea that British Culture is like that of an Amazonian tribe - cut off for centuries and in danger of being lost forever - is a bit silly, and the idea that it's under threat is preposterous. British Culture, if anything, is actually a threat to many smaller ones around the globe.

Britain has always been an outward looking, trade friendly nation. The world hasn't 'invaded' us and made us multicultural. We went out to the world and made ourselves multicultural. Our language - the very bedrock of our culture - has outside influence ingrained into it.

As for the subject of 'consent' - well the process started long before ordinary people even understood the concept of consent. But even then you'd have to really begin cherry picking to work out what has been good and bad about our openness to the influence of other cultures. Some people are offended by the aroma of foreign dishes, and (most) others like it. Using Kipling's work as a means of praising British culture and decrying the inroads made by other cultures into our country is the absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy, considering a lot of his work lionised the British Empire (which was not consented to by the conquered peoples).

Anyone living in Britain today is absolutely free to live as British an existence as they wish. You can eat whatever you deem to be a traditional British diet, wear British clothes, speak English, listen to British music and watch British television. There is nothing stopping you from keeping British Culture alive. What you actually object to though is the freedom of other people to do as they wish. It's not enough that you have your freedoms, but you want to take away the same from other people. That's where this notion of "I don't mind them coming here, but why can't they speak English and eat fish and chips like we do" comes from. Of course the same people will go to Spain and enjoy going to a British or Irish pub, and never deign to learn to say thank you in Spanish. It's cultural bigotry pure and simple.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:12 pm

South West Claret. wrote:Is that not because of the increased fees in the UK?
No, it’s because some students wanted a different poem painted onto one of the walls in their union.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by LeadBelly » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:24 pm

Interesting to compare the division of views here with the btl comments on BBC's website.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... r-44884913

Not much sign at all of any support for the action of these "student leaders", all the top comments are 300-400 v couple of dozen (against/for) these actions (whereas, on here, there's more of a - well done/ don't care reaction.) Oddly big difference in the balance of views.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:26 pm

Yup, because the only people who write on those sites are the bigoted and the mad.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by aggi » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:27 pm

Surely this thread is a bit paradoxical, if Kipling has been erased from history then how can there be a thread about Kipling?

Or possibly the title doesn't actually reflect the reality?

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by evensteadiereddie » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:29 pm

Correct, riley, it's not as though Kipling's stuff has been thrown out of all libraries and destroyed, USA - style. it's a wall that has been repainted. I don't think anybody including the students is denying anything or "erasing history" - they are merely "erasing" a poem by redeocorating their Union building with something they feel more at ease with. It's still a free country, believe it or not.
Some bloody soft gets on here. If you're that fussed about preserving our history, warts and all, cover your walls in poetry from a hundred years ago.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by LeadBelly » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:33 pm

Yup, because the only people who write on those sites are the bigoted and the mad.
Haha very fishy.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Guich » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:52 pm

It's no big deal - students doing what they do.

But we shouldn't paint all students with the same white brush. 90 per cent of them aren't activists, in my experience, they just want an education and a good time and try (when they remember) not to offend anyone, like the rest of us.

There will always be a few to take up any cause and that's probably a good thing.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Lord Beamish » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:02 pm

Kipling could be very heavy handed and pompous, when bad. When good he could do this...

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/ ... dane-women" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by TheFamilyCat » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:15 pm

Chip Harrison wrote:Interesting point Ringo, in that the British people were never asked if they wanted to live in a multi cultural society, but had it forced on them...Not saying I agree with that, but I can see why some people would think that and even be angry at it.
If only someone had thought to have a referendum about it.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Flatline » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:44 pm

Mike Bassett won't be happy.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by BabylonClaret » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:52 pm

Chip Harrison wrote:Interesting point Ringo, in that the British people were never asked if they wanted to live in a multi cultural society, but had it forced on them...Not saying I agree with that, but I can see why some people would think that and even be angry at it.
Really? Really? you really believe this? (I know you said you didn't agree but you can see why people do have that view which partly condones that.

Frankly I think that interpretation of our society is a complete load of ******** but hey it's your opinion. But rather those people moan about it they should simply offer thanks to their Georgian/Victorian forefathers for that gift?

You know Ringo ... tho ones who forced a White British culture on three quarters of the world at gunpoint - not consent. Not giving freedom etc (that's an afterthought) - merely looking to make money.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Flatline » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:09 pm

BabylonClaret wrote:Really? Really? you really believe this?

Frankly I think that's a complete load of ******** but hey it's your opinion. But rather those people moan about it they should simply offer thanks to your Georgian/Victorian forefathers for that gift?

You know Ringo ... tho ones who forced a White British culture on three quarters of the world at gunpoint - not consent. Not giving freedom etc (that's an afterthought) - merely looking to make money.
Think you're referring to the 1%,the working class had nothing to do with it.My Grandparents weren't happy about it when Nelson turned into a Pakistani ghetto.I suppose they were racists though and should have known better for being white privileged.

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