Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

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Imploding Turtle
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:03 pm

spadesclaret wrote:That is just it. We have moved on. But - Kipling was a man of his time, not of ours. Deleting him or his works is denying that he and his ideas ever existed. Much better to preserve his work and learn from it. It is our history and is part of what has got us where we are today.



His work hasn't been deleted. Unless Kipling himself wrote the poem on the ******* wall then his work isn't being deleted.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Greenmile » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:20 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:It appears that in a multicultural society, (something which the People were never asked if they actually wanted) every culture is encouraged to celebrate their tradition, their heritage and their history.

Except white British People......


They asked me. I said it would be ok. Never realised you would mind. Sorry.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:23 pm

I just wrote the Winston Churchill "we shall fight them on the beaches" speech on my wall and painted over it.


disclaimer: i didn't really. please don't report me to the right-wing thought-police.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by gandhisflipflop » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:11 am

LeadBelly wrote:Interesting to compare the division of views here with the btl comments on BBC's website.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-44884913

Not much sign at all of any support for the action of these "student leaders", all the top comments are 300-400 v couple of dozen (against/for) these actions (whereas, on here, there's more of a - well done/ don't care reaction.) Oddly big difference in the balance of views.


That's because this messageboard is infested with left wing 'holier than thou' idiots who continuously either a - love an argument or b - have their heads firmly buried in the sand, or both.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:15 am

gandhisflipflop wrote:That's because this messageboard is infested with left wing 'holier than thou' idiots who continuously either a - love an argument or b - have their heads firmly buried in the sand, or both.


Mate, a wall has been redecorated. Why do you care?

You don’t have to be left wing to see that a wall being repainted is trivial. And what do you mean by having their heads firmly buried in the sand? It doesn’t actually mean anything in the context of this discussion.

Edit - can you explain exactly what it is about this story that has got you upset?

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by gandhisflipflop » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:24 am

It's not just this story is it? This story is just one of many where PC of it all is sad. Some make it's way onto this board (with other countless political threads) which then attracts the usual condescending posters which then results in a 4 page slanging match. I cant wait for the season to start.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:30 am

gandhisflipflop wrote:It's not just this story is it? This story is just one of many where PC of it all is sad. Some make it's way onto this board (with other countless political threads) which then attracts the usual condescending posters which then results in a 4 page slanging match. I cant wait for the season to start.


This story doesn’t have anything to do with political correctness. The students wanted a different poem painted onto their wall. That is literally all there is to this story.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by spadesclaret » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:34 am

Rileybobs wrote:This story doesn’t have anything to do with political correctness. The students wanted a different poem painted onto their wall. That is literally all there is to this story.


It's not really all, is it, Riley? The big question is why did they want a different poem? I like both the poems and, by the look of the walls, there is room for them both so why have they scrubbed one in favour of the other?
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by gandhisflipflop » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:42 am

Rileybobs wrote:This story doesn’t have anything to do with political correctness. The students wanted a different poem painted onto their wall. That is literally all there is to this story.



The students have become increasingly intolerant to any views opposing their own and that i think comes from what they are being taught in universities. They should be intelligent enough to recognise kiplings work (in this example) and see it for what it is.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:45 am

spadesclaret wrote:It's not really all, is it, Riley? The big question is why did they want a different poem? I like both the poems and, by the look of the walls, there is room for them both so why have they scrubbed one in favour of the other?


The article says that the elected student union members felt that Kipling was not ‘in line with their values’ which is a perfectly acceptable considering the poem was on the wall of their building.

There are numerous artists across all fields who have produced fantastic work which should be celebrated and preserved, yet have left somewhat of a sour taste in other areas of their lives or work.

If the students didn’t feel that Kipling’s words represented their values then I don’t see any issue at all with them replacing the mural with another. I can’t see why anyone would unless they’re looking for something that isn’t their.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:47 am

The whole idea of university is that you use the available resources to make up your own mind about stuff.

Course if you do no research and just make stuff up you won't get anywhere, which isn't ideal as that certainly isn't the case when you leave.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:48 am

gandhisflipflop wrote:The students have become increasingly intolerant to any views opposing their own and that i think comes from what they are being taught in universities. They should be intelligent enough to recognise kiplings work (in this example) and see it for what it is.


But it’s their building. Why would they have the words of somebody they oppose painted on the wall of their building? I wouldn’t decorate my wall with something that I found distasteful.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Chobulous » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:06 pm

At the risk of being pedantic, it isn't their building, it belongs to the university. However it has been set aside for their use so they should in all fairness have some input into how it is decorated. What has happened here is that someone has decided, without any consulation with the Student Union, to decorate the wall with a poem. It could have been any poem, but the one chosen is one by a great author, but one some of whose work is associated with colonialism, imperialism, the Raj, etc. These students object to that and have decided to replace the poem with one that they feel is more in keeping with their current values. They are protesting in that over earnest way that typifies the young. Protest fuels progress in my book and long may it continue.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:12 pm

Well said Chobulous

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Pstotto » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:27 pm

Erase India for the caste system and putting female relatives live on the bonfire? If there hadn't been an Empire an no colonialism, ok there would be no reggae music and and...

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Pstotto » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:30 pm

Their caste system, a third of India, one whole third of the population subjected to racist abuse by the rest. Pot calls kettle black.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by ZizkovClaret » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:22 pm

spadesclaret wrote:That is just it. We have moved on. But - Kipling was a man of his time, not of ours. Deleting him or his works is denying that he and his ideas ever existed. Much better to preserve his work and learn from it. It is our history and is part of what has got us where we are today.


Sure, and in a library there would be no issue, but in a students union?
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:06 pm

gandhisflipflop wrote:That's because this messageboard is infested with left wing 'holier than thou' idiots who continuously either a - love an argument or b - have their heads firmly buried in the sand, or both.


Lol. Imagine accusing other of "living an argument" after you posted in a thread because you're angry that a wall got redecorated.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:The whole idea of university is that you use the available resources to make up your own mind about stuff.

Course if you do no research and just make stuff up you won't get anywhere, which isn't ideal as that certainly isn't the case when you leave.



That's what is funniest about this. The people who are angry about this appear to be the same people saying that universities are indoctrination students and not allowing them to think for themselves.

Well, idiots, here they are thinking for themselves. And yet you're still angry.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by BennyD » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:28 pm

Why do bl00dy students always have something to moan about the world over? It’s not like they’ve ever done anything useful for society whilst still at school/college/uni. Perhaps they should STFU until they start contributing.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by SonofPog » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:37 pm

What's the cut off (In both age and tax contributions) before you can start caring about making the world a better place? ;-)

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Caernarfon_Claret » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:47 pm

spadesclaret wrote:That is just it. We have moved on. But - Kipling was a man of his time, not of ours. Deleting him or his works is denying that he and his ideas ever existed. Much better to preserve his work and learn from it. It is our history and is part of what has got us where we are today.


They removed a copy of his work that had been added to a wall fairly recently in an error of judgment.

They've made two films of his Jungle Book in the last couple of years so I'm sure people will know who he is.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:52 pm

BennyD wrote:Why do bl00dy students always have something to moan about the world over? It’s not like they’ve ever done anything useful for society whilst still at school/college/uni. Perhaps they should STFU until they start contributing.


Irony overload.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:54 pm

BennyD wrote:Why do bl00dy students always have something to moan about the world over? It’s not like they’ve ever done anything useful for society whilst still at school/college/uni. Perhaps they should STFU until they start contributing.



They pay something nowadays like £9.5k/year to attend university. I think they're contributing more than enough to be allowed to decide how it's decorated.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:04 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:They pay something nowadays like £9.5k/year to attend university.


Unless they're Scottish.....

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:06 pm

If students got drunk and had sex with one another more often, they'd have less time to play the role of the thin skinned victim.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by evensteadiereddie » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:14 pm

What victim, thin-skinned or otherwise, are these students playing ? It seems, as usual, that it's the predictable gang of petty-minded, jealous nonentities who frequent this board who are playing the victim.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Murger » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:18 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:What victim, thin-skinned or otherwise, are these students playing ? It seems, as usual, that it's the predictable gang of petty-minded, jealous nonentities who frequent this board who are playing the victim.


Don't put yourself down.
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by BabylonClaret » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:20 pm

Murger wrote:Don't put yourself down.


Crikey - that's a terrific put down!!

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by evensteadiereddie » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:23 pm

Yeah, great one, Murger, my comment wasn't actually aimed at you but now you mention it............ ;)

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Murger » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:26 pm

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by aggi » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:04 pm

So this is snowflakes getting annoyed by people they call snowflakes?

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:53 am

aggi wrote:So this is snowflakes getting annoyed by people they call snowflakes?


Students are the ultimate snowflakes though.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by evensteadiereddie » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:52 am

You know many of them personally, CM, or is this just a generalisation ?

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:01 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:You know many of them personally, CM, or is this just a generalisation ?


I know many of them personally.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:18 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:Students are the ultimate snowflakes though.


When was the last time students got offended by something as little as other people painting a wall that they never knew existed?
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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by evensteadiereddie » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:21 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:I know many of them personally.


Your sweeping statement is made all the more unfair and ridiculous if - if - what you claim is true.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by aggi » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:17 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:Students are the ultimate snowflakes though.


Ah, UTC is full of students. Now it makes sense.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Give Quiche a Chance » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:38 pm

Firstly, I am a cisgender white heterosexual male for which I apologise.

I find this story highly disturbing, over privileged first world students destroying the work of an Indian born writer in what harks back to colonial censorship of the arts from the developing world. Why aren’t Greater Manchester Police investigating this hate crime?

I am also appalled by their choice of using a Maya Angelou poem instead. She was a well know animal rapist or what the hated main stream media would refer to as a “meat eater”. Why aren’t Greater Manchester Police investigating this blatant animal abuse?

I suggest a poem by Norwegian gender neutral collective, Penis Shaped Vagina, is used instead. It is called YMCA Hard Border, which deals with the abuse of the Sub-Saharan African LGBT Community in a post-Brexit world.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:45 pm

I wonder how concerned certain types will be with this art work being destroyed.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Claret&Green » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:08 pm

What I don't understand is how far back should we look for hate crime to condemn. Do we condemn they amazing architecture the Romans created coz of first their anti-seminism then their anti-Christian views, or maybe we have to look a wee bit further back and destroy the pyramids coz of the way Egyptians treated Jews, or we could even say every homo-sapien that ever existed should burn in hell due to the genocide of the Neanderthals. FHS people Rudyard Kipling was a man of his times, if he'd been born in the mid/late 20th century and had a more modern upbringing I'm sure he would not have been at all racist.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by dsr » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:22 pm

Claret&Green wrote:What I don't understand is how far back should we look for hate crime to condemn. Do we condemn they amazing architecture the Romans created coz of first their anti-seminism then their anti-Christian views, or maybe we have to look a wee bit further back and destroy the pyramids coz of the way Egyptians treated Jews, or we could even say every homo-sapien that ever existed should burn in hell due to the genocide of the Neanderthals. FHS people Rudyard Kipling was a man of his times, if he'd been born in the mid/late 20th century and had a more modern upbringing I'm sure he would not have been at all racist.

Everybody in that era was racist, pretty much. Kipling obviously believed that the UK was a mature democracy and the Indians were better off for being governed by us; but he also believed that, man for man, any Indian, even a border thief or a half-dressed untouchable, could be the equal of the richest and most respectable Englishman. "Gunga Din" and "The Ballad of East and West" are two of the most anti-racist poems of the era.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by hampsteadclaret » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:07 pm

Wow.. there’s some clever well-educated people on here these days..look at some of the stuff above.

Mind you that’s better than the other lot who keep filling this forum up, with cretinous nonsense - you know who you are.

What do all those posters who have a downer on students have in common?... yes you’ve got it.

Of course students are going to have a view on the art and literature on display in their educational buildings.. that is their purpose in life.

Murger...well amusing put-down.
I now see you in a different light having shown hitherto hidden qualities.

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Re: Manchester Students Erase Kipling from History

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:33 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I wonder how concerned certain types will be with this art work being destroyed.

Oops. Forgot to include this, cos I'm an idiot.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... SApp_Other

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