Dyche: Difficult to compete with transfers long term

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:51 am

This season we have gone for the same players who we went for last season , have we even got a recruitment team or one that’s even arsed , sounds to me like Dyche will be off soon and all the sycophants can finally be happy supporting us plummeting.

Rightfoot · Post by **Rightfoot** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:05 am

I think this is Dyches way of asking for outside investors, the current board have taken us as far as they can

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:07 am

Rightfoot wrote:I think this is Dyches way of asking for outside investors, the current board have taken us as far as they can

b b b b b b but Portsmouth

Rightfoot · Post by **Rightfoot** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:09 am

ClaretAndJew wrote:b b b b b b but Portsmouth

Point is what?

snapcrackleandpop · Post by **snapcrackleandpop** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:10 am

Surely the time is coming for outside investment, I like the fact the we are a local club but times are changing and probably not for the better. I know the vast majority would not want this but I don't want to watch us struggle every season and risk losing Dyche, before we get the we finished 7th last season I bet we won't finish 7th this season with MG's version of austerity.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:10 am

Rightfoot wrote:Point is what?

Nothing, it was a humorous attempt at playing the superfan.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:15 am

None Burnley fan ownership is the road to ruin. I just what us to spend most of what we get in income, whilst keeping a bit back for a rainy day. At present it appears that the board see it ******* down everyday, forever.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:15 am

snapcrackleandpop wrote:Surely the time is coming for outside investment, I like the fact the we are a local club but times are changing and probably not for the better. I know the vast majority would not want this but I don't want to watch us struggle every season and risk losing Dyche, before we get the we finished 7th last season I bet we won't finish 7th this season with MG's version of austerity.

Our version of austerity has allowed us to compete in Europe, something the vast majority of promoted clubs, with all their wealth will never, ever achieve.

arise_sir_charge · Post by **arise_sir_charge** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:15 am

I don’t want foreign owners, the fact our chairman is called Garlick is foreign enough me for me.......however I also reserve the right to point to all the other clubs having super wealthy foreign owners when blindly defending our transfer policy.

We finished 7th you know.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:17 am

it's clear to see that we are making progress at the player development levels. This is the only way we will compete and surely Sean knows this.
We have a fantastic training facility, just need to survive this season and we'll start seeing the benefits.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:18 am

I don't think Dyche or the board can have any excuses. We've long known the market we're in and had years to improve our scouting setup. Either we've failed to do so or Dyche is being too stubborn regarding signing players from abroad. What makes it all the more frustrating is that we've had a long time to prepare after confirming our PL safety. Last season's finish should have made this our best-ever chance to attract quality players. It's quite incredible we're struggling on this scale.

I was feeling confident we'd bring in the players needed but having read multiple articles with less-than-optimistic quotes from Dyche, I'm not so sure now. If we don't sign players then I think we'll be having an early exit from the Europa League and certainly can't expect a cup run as our squad is too small in its present state.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:21 am

IndigoLake wrote:I don't think Dyche or the board can have any excuses. We've long known the market we're in and had years to improve our scouting setup. Either we've failed to do so or Dyche is being too stubborn regarding signing players from abroad. What makes it all the more frustrating is that we've had a long time to prepare after confirming our PL safety. Last season's finish should have made this our best-ever chance to attract quality players. It's quite incredible we're struggling on this scale.

I was feeling confident we'd bring in the players needed but having read multiple articles with less-than-optimistic quotes from Dyche, I'm not so sure now. If we don't sign players then I think we'll be having an early exit from the Europa League and certainly can't expect a cup run as our squad is too small in its present state.

What quality players?

agreenwood · Post by **agreenwood** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:23 am

joey13 wrote:This season we have gone for the same players who we went for last season , have we even got a recruitment team or one that’s even arsed , sounds to me like Dyche will be off soon and all the sycophants can finally be happy supporting us plummeting.

You can’t completely separate Dyche from this. He has a very narrow set of criteria - usually British, usually Premier League experience, usually at least 25 years old and usually reasonably well known to himself or his coaches. Take the players out who are at the big 6-7 or on huge contacts and you’re probably looking at about an absolute maximum of 10-20 players and that before you narrow further by position. It’s also going to be a very expensive pool.

I’ve questioned the value of our recruitment structure before, but I’ve no doubt that they do their jobs properly. It isn’t their fault if the club only trusts what they know very well.

Claretpundit · Post by **Claretpundit** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:26 am

Sadly we only seem to have the finances that can run a league 1 club at best.I do wonder how hard the Board are trying to attract new investment and ownership. Perhaps they would be happier competing with the Oldhams and Rochdales of the football world. Sounds like they would be more in their financial comfort zone. The journey has been good while it lasted but without new investors and ownership sadly it will be back to the football basement.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:31 am

Claretpundit wrote:Sadly we only seem to have the finances that can run a league 1 club at best.I do wonder how hard the Board are trying to attract new investment and ownership. Perhaps they would be happier competing with the Oldhams and Rochdales of the football world. Sounds like they would be more in their financial comfort zone. The journey has been good while it lasted but without new investors and ownership sadly it will be back to the football basement.

Cheer up.
We are competeing in the "best" league in the world.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:37 am

Spijed wrote:What quality players?

Are we that desperate that you're asking me to do the scouting for the club?

I'm not saying we don't already have quality players (at least relative to our club's level). What I'm saying is that this summer seemed the ideal opportunity to continue in the vein of Defour, Lennon and Wood, for example. We finished 7th, we're not favourites for relegation, we've had plenty of time to prepare, we qualified for the Europa League and we seemingly have some cash to spend.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:42 am

We are unlikely to finish 7th again as it was a bit like the Leicester season really. We had some unexpected results whilst others had poor seasons by their own normal standards.

Regardless of who we don't sign, the current crop of players along with the coaching staff, are good enough to keep us in this League for another season.

We will never break into the top 6 regardless of who we sign and neither will any of those sides that have been bringing players in from across the globe in droves at ridiculous expense.

It wouldn't be Burnley without a bit of drama.

UTC

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:44 am

IndigoLake wrote:Are we that desperate that you're asking me to do the scouting for the club?

I'm not saying we don't already have quality players (at least relative to our club's level). What I'm saying is that this summer seemed the ideal opportunity to continue in the vein of Defour, Lennon and Wood, for example. We finished 7th, we're not favourites for relegation, we've had plenty of time to prepare, we qualified for the Europa League and we seemingly have some cash to spend.

Isn't that why we've targeted JayRod and Dawson, players at our level? Dawson is a good replacement if Mee leaves, for example.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:46 am

Spijed wrote:Isn't that why we've targeted JayRod and Dawson, players at our level? Dawson is a good replacement if Mee leaves, for example.

I think you may have misunderstood or misinterpreted my use of the word 'quality'. I'm certainly not suggesting we target Messi or Ronaldo (wouldn't say no though!). I agree that Rodriguez and Dawson would be quality players for Burnley FC. However, we've had all window to bring them in and have failed to do so thus far. We know West Brom can be awkward to deal with. Hopefully we still manage to get those two over the line though I do believe that it still leaves us a bit short on numbers, particularly if we progress in the Europa League.

Edit - If we bring in Rodriguez and Dawson, I'll be happy enough. My expectations have lowered after the slow transfer window for us so far. If we're able to bring in one or two more on top of that then I'll be very happy.

snapcrackleandpop · Post by **snapcrackleandpop** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:52 am

[quote="Spijed"]Our version of austerity has allowed us to compete in Europe, something the vast majority of promoted clubs, with all their wealth will never, ever achieve.[/quote
Maybe so but what if this version of austerity sees us struggling in a relegation battle, I know we are competing in Europe but we were a little fortunate to get there I mean we weren’t blowing teams away were we.
I don’t believe we should go stupid but I do think we need to be less cautious.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:00 am

Silkyskills1 wrote:Great post. The writing is on the wall, the cracks are beginning to show,the season is still 9/10 days away and the manager,it seems, is running out of ways to show his displeasure. Harmony is a major contributor to our progress and that has come from the top but the harmony is slowly being damaged now and not everyone seems to be singing from the same song sheet.

The challenge has been to get in players that immediatley improve the team. Due to ramapant inflation for a few reasons that hasn't happened yet and might not happen. So he may have to fall back on the policy that has seen us through up to now. Bringing in players from lower leagues and improving them and older players like Barton. The spending of the top six is unreal but the way that some others outside the top six are spending will surely end in tears, rich owners or not. We dont want be in that situation though I have to admit a rich backer would put a smile on my face.

DomBFC1882 · Post by **DomBFC1882** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:03 am

Got to agree with snapcrackleandpop on this one. If there is ever a time when burnley becomes an attractive proposition, it's now when we can offer European football and a squad that helped us finish 7th in the best league in the world.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:09 am

Spijed, our business model or version of austerity has been a roaring success I agree, and it's gotten us into Europe - though I would debate the use of the word 'compete'. But it doesn't mean your business model can't or shouldn't change as your business grows and expands. We have a chance of a lifetime here, to try and solidify and establish ourselves as a premier league club. I don't buy the fact that we came 7th as a guarantee that's been achieved, especially with new demands on our season and a bad start in terms of injury. The plan was always to get numbers in early, and we seem to have failed because we're unwilling to change our budgetary constraints and structure to get the players Dyche needs. Spending more money is a risk, but so is hoping what you've done so far will work even if your situation has changed.

There's no doubt, with potentially 6 Thursdays in a row awaiting us in Europa, that theres a big risk our league form might be affected by playing in a new competition. There's no guarantee signings for other clubs will all come good, but on balance our competitors have gotten stronger comparatively. You can only de-risk more spending as much as possible, and to me we have the best possible asset in this regard. Sean Dyche. Coupled with a strategy to buy players with good resale value, you're only going to be selling back into a market that's as inflated as the one you bought from. I'm not suggesting we go out and spend 100s of millions, but this current market has not sprung from nowhere and we seem unprepared to compete in it effectively. Which given our performance last season, the resulting european qualification and a manager who's proved himself beyond doubt is just not good enough.

Dyche himself might have to carry some blame, but collectively we've put ourselves in a potentially dangerous position. I don't subscribe to getting new owners, big loans or any of that nonsense by the by. We have excellent people in charge who care for the club which is great, I just think that we're stopping still and crossing our fingers. We essentially won our race last year, which is the time to strengthen and evolve. I don't think anyone could argue we've done that, and the risk there is greater in my opinion than spending more in transfer fees than you expected.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:10 am

Nothing in that article that surprises me Dyche is basically speaking common sense.

The idea mooted by some that managing to stay up in the PL for a few seasons will help generate enough finances to be able to compete on a more level footing is just fanciful really. The vast majority of the other clubs gain more than us in TV revenue PLUS they have the wealth of investors to ensure that they can buy the better quality players and offer higher wages.

All that staying in the PL does is put Burnley on a sounder financial footing for when they return to the Championship and give us a better shot at getting back up at the earliest opportunity before the finances run too low.

The biggest failing has been the inability to build a proper overseas scouting network that has been discussed and mooted on here for yonks.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:11 am

nothing in the article that we didn't already know.

without the safety net of seriously wealthy backers, its a bigger risk for us to keep pace with the market so its about finding a balance. that balance will get harder to achieve every year.

it doesn't matter how much tv money we earn as everyone else in the league gets a pretty similar amount.

funny that this article comes on a day when crystal ******* palace are about to pay a random german player £170k a week, as if to prove how ridiculous the market has become.

Cubanclaret · Post by **Cubanclaret** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:12 am

I think its handy to watch the press conference - I watched it on the Mirror Sport website last night. You hear the questions and the whole thing has more context. I didn't think it showed anything more than the usual we have heard from Dyche over transfers, certainly didn't see it as a cry for help.
He has towed the line of 'give me the money and I'll spend it a number of times in the past.'

He is obviously frustrated and feels undermined a little by 'not bringing more players through the door' by now. I think it might be true that our criteria for recruitment has been especially narrow this time. But that's probably an issue of finishing 7th - how do you improve on that and what sort of player does it take? First team players for a team finishing top half are £20m+

Personally, I'd have been more than happy if we'd signed 2 / 3 Championship up-and-comers and looked to integrate them into the team over time - the majority of our squad building success has been based on this as Dyche and his team has been so adept at developing players.

It is these type of players that are our lifeblood (the only already established Prem players we have attracted are Lennon and Cork - Defour, appears to be one we got lucky with). Surely it's not hard to sell the club to players at this level.

We appear to have aimed higher this time - and the upshot of that is that we have been outbid for the likes of Mawson - so I'm not sure its the transfer market running away from us, or just that our now loftier ambitions are being harder to realise in the market.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:14 am

Wasn't the German player a so-called "Free Transfer"

What they saved in a transfer fee they were presumably happy to give to the player.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:25 am

I see Dyche as simply being honest. It is his framework for seeking players that limits us, and it works, but it makes it tough to buy when other clubs know we have a narrow framework.

We have signed Defour who had a huge falling out at his last club, Lennon who had a serious illness, Gudmundsson and Pope who had just been relegated to L1, Tarky from L1 (or had been recently), Cork who his new manager didn’t want.

That’s our tactic. We need to wait for new opportunities, as teams hit the business end, players get moved on. Eventually we will sign some, but we have to accept that the quality we will sign are as before, not the next level up. That’s fine, holding our own is fine, that’s all any small club can do at this level.

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:27 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_o ... ball_clubs

This gives us an idea what we're up against. 14 of the 20 PL clubs are back by Billionaire owners. Of the rest we are well adrift at the bottom in terms of wealth. The combined wealth of Garlick and Banaszkiewicz is said to be around $80m (approx £60m) and according to this list that puts us $320m behind the next "un-wealthiest" in Gino Pozzo at Watford. Run through the list for each division and you'll find that there are wealthier backers than ours in each of the four Divisions. Finishing 7th last season was a miracle; just being in the PL is a miracle to be honest!

I want us to sign players as much as the next man but it makes you think when you consider a £20m fee is equal to approximately a third of the combined wealth of our owners! We are so reliant on the TV revenue we receive and not just for this season but for many seasons to come. We're still a club who cannot afford to bet the ranch on staying in the PL. It'd be the road to ruin.

lucs86 · Post by **lucs86** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:28 am

Spijed wrote:Our version of austerity has allowed us to compete in Europe, something the vast majority of promoted clubs, with all their wealth will never, ever achieve.

Sean Dyche is the reason we're in Europe and our austerity will be the reason we stagnate and he leaves.
That's perhaps inevitable but I'd rather see us change approach and attempt to compete in some way rather than just watch us slide.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:35 am

Bet the ranch ffs. That's going back 10 years. Just spend most of the annual budget. There is 4 season's of parachute you know. If we do that and can't compete then fine.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:45 am

Troubling comments from Dyche. The manager saying that we can't compete in this league long-term isn't exactly what you want to hear just before the new season starts.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:53 am

ClaretAndJew wrote:Once again though, there's a middle ground. We don't have to spend loads and "bust", but equally we can't just stand still while the rest of the league evolves. We're not the only team in this situation, so why does it sound like we are?

It’s because we are one of the very very few Prem clubs without a multi millionaire/ billionaire backer. We survive on what we earn but other clubs can spend all they earn and still get their bills paid. Rovers would be up sh!t creek without the Venkys bailing them out as would a number of big clubs. It’s one of the things you have to take when you support Burnley, we have been punching way above our weight for years, but now we have a small measure of financial security and that, IMO, isn’t worth jeopardising.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:54 am

ClaretAndJew wrote:A very weird ending to an otherwise decent post.

The few refer to agents and greedy footballers the many are the fans. Labours current slogan.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:58 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:Troubling comments from Dyche. The manager saying that we can't compete in this league long-term isn't exactly what you want to hear just before the new season starts.

But it's only the truth.

Reckoner · Post by **Reckoner** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:01 am

I love everything about the club except for the section of the fanbase that is just miserable all the time. If this board and manager haven't earned your trust to act appropriately, even when the club are at the best position we have ever been in most of our lifetimes, then you will always be miserable. I would never move back to Burnley because there is so much misery and bigotry there, and I don't blame Alfie Mawson for choosing London even if money was the key factor.

COBBLE · Post by **COBBLE** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:02 am

I'd wait till the window is shut before deciding whether the board have failed. Nearly 200 frantic posts about Peter Crouch recently that were wide of the mark.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:03 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:Troubling comments from Dyche. The manager saying that we can't compete in this league long-term isn't exactly what you want to hear just before the new season starts.

That might be what the headline says but it isn't what SD said.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:05 am

BBC Sport
Premier League: Burnley boss Sean Dyche calls on club to keep pace with rivals
01 August 2018 Burnley
Sean Dyche said last season 'we're not in a position to just buy a player for the sake of filling a hole'
Burnley manager Sean Dyche says the club must spend in the transfer market just to "keep up" with other Premier League sides.

The Clarets finished seventh and qualified for the Europa League last season but Dyche has so far been unable to add to his squad this summer.

He suggested that the club needed to show more financial ambition.

"The challenge is opening the club's mind enough keep up. The market will outrun you at some point," he said.

"Stretch and not break, that's the idea. It's not easy.

"We have a business model, but it makes it very tough. The chairman wants to back the club but can only back it to a certain level unless it rips up the whole structure of the club.

"I understand it. But my football head says 'give me the money and I'll go and spend it'."

The club's record signing is Chris Wood, who joined for £15m from Leeds in August 2017. They have only ever spent more than £10m on a player four times.

Burnley, who play Aberdeen in the Europa League second qualifying round second leg on Thursday, have been linked with a number of potential incomings this summer, including West Brom duo Jay Rodriguez and Craig Dawson.

But no signings have been made and Dean Marney and Scott Arfield both left the club when their contracts ended.
.................

I sense a real frustration. 7th is impossible. Premier League status is a real 50-50 challenge agaibmn and dependent on a good start, for the euphoria effect.

Do teams with Euro commitments ever have a good start? A small squad has to revv up pre-season, leading to injuries which otherwise can be avoided. That puts strain on the core. They are pulled out of friendlies they would have played, this risking team cohesion.

I feel for him. Not saying break the model - reshape it. Less in but real hungry players. They have already missed our team building. Weeks to get acclimatised.

Even one, now, would lift the whole place. Jay Rodriguez would raise the roof.

Up the Clarets.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:06 am

I bet there's not a single supporter who thinks we should be doing better that can name a club that IS doing better.

Swansea city perhaps? They were the roll model to follow with similar sized gates and decided to get outside investment.

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:10 am

Spijed wrote:I bet there's not a single supporter who thinks we should be doing better that can name a club that IS doing better.

Swansea city perhaps? They were the roll model to follow with similar sized gates and decided to get outside investment.

Where has anybody said we should be doing better? Everyone I speak to was overjoyed to finished 7th last season and have a go at Europe, and now realise it's probably impossible to repeat or better that. Most people would be happy to stay up again this year.

We just want 2 or 3 players who we absolutely need to supplement our tiny squad, which isn't asking a lot considering how much cash we've got.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:14 am

JohnMac wrote:But it's only the truth.

Is it? We might as well give up now then and head back to the Championship, right?

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:16 am

Tall Paul wrote:That might be what the headline says but it isn't what SD said.

Asked if clubs like Burnley could compete at this level long-term, Dyche said: “It’s tough. Probably, no."

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:24 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:Asked if clubs like Burnley could compete at this level long-term, Dyche said: “It’s tough. Probably, no."

Next sentence: "Possibly, yes, football is weird like that."

He's saying it'll be difficult, but is possible, which we all know anyway.

BigChaCha · Post by **BigChaCha** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:29 am

SD is starting to sound like Cotterill did in his last 18 months at the club, especially in it's frequency! It was tiresome then as it is now!

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:50 am

kentonclaret wrote:Wasn't the German player a so-called "Free Transfer"

What they saved in a transfer fee they were presumably happy to give to the player.

not looked, he might well be a free but either way its crazy and carries big risks.

how many other palace players are getting that? i suspect a few others will be after a payrise now.

what if it doesn't work out and nobody else wants to pay him those wages? might end up with him running down his fat contract.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:52 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:Asked if clubs like Burnley could compete at this level long-term, Dyche said: “It’s tough. Probably, no."

but whats new there? its always been the case that, in terms of probability, a club like burnley cannot compete long term at this level.

doesn't mean its not possible but that the odds will almost always be stacked against us, just as they were last season.

John Johnson 1605 · Post by **John Johnson 1605** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:03 am

[quote="BigChaCha"]SD is starting to sound like Cotterill did in his last 18 months at the club, especially in it's frequency! It was tiresome then as it is now

With respect I don't think that's fair.

SD has said that it's hard to compete in the market, which is what we all know. Alongside this his manner and body language remain positive.

SC on the other hand (who did a good job in difficult circumstances) was becoming increasingly down beat which was no doubt affecting the teams performances.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:05 am

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:06 am

Nothing new in what he has said --he was asked the question and he answered it.

Swansea, Stoke and West Brom all went down last season after 8, 7 and 10 consecutive seasons in the PL and all three have spent time down in the third level of English football during the last 30 years and all have considerably richer owners than Burnley.