ARTICLE: Clucas and Rodriguez signings beginning to look less likely

[Murger]

You said we weren't going to sign anyone, so it's already exceeded your expectations.

Maybe so, but this isn't about my expectations. Do you think the transfer window so far has been a success?

[UpTheClaretsFCBK]

I get a feeling this “other clubs are interested” ploy is something to do with his agent. It’s probably to get us to up our bid and get the job done.

I expect us to bid once more at £18m, take it or leave.

[TVC15]

Claretspice - I was talking about getting Gibson not Keane.

I’m not saying our transfer dealings have been perfect - but we have made a lot more good decisions than bad.

We do not know the details of the demands the clubs and players are making. But I do know that some of the comments directed towards the club suggesting an amateur approach and penny pinching for the sake of a couple of million lack any logic.

[Nonayforever]

Our greatest need is a recruitment team , not a old bloke with a flat cap , woodbine ,Jack Russell, and a dart .

I didn't realize that SD has a flat hat !

[Tall Paul]

Maybe so, but this isn't about my expectations. Do you think the transfer window so far has been a success?

I'll let you know on Thursday evening.

[claretspice]

Claretspice - I was talking about getting Gibson not Keane.

I’m not saying our transfer dealings have been perfect - but we have made a lot more good decisions than bad.

We do not know the details of the demands the clubs and players are making. But I do know that some of the comments directed towards the club suggesting an amateur approach and penny pinching for the sake of a couple of million lack any logic.

Regarding Gibson rather than Keane - OK, but that's not inconsistent with my point, which was that the market keeps moving, as our various daliances with Dawson have shown.

But whilst I'm generally supportive of the club's approach to the transfer market, we do seem to be intransigent. Dawson was our first choice, but eventually we moved onto a second or even third choice - presumably not someone Dyche rates as highly for whatever reason (I rate Gibson highly). Sometimes, that's what you've got to do. But it does feel that too often, we end up getting "stuck" - trying to prize a player away from a club who do not want to sell for a fee we're willing to pay, and in the end getting no-one. Sometimes, that's a valid ploy. But when you leave yourself short in a key department, its not something you ought to be making a habit of. We do, and which suggests that given the common denominator is Burnley Football Club, we need to take a look at how and why we end up in that position. We don't always appear to learn the lessons of the past.

[taio]

Regarding Gibson rather than Keane - OK, but that's not inconsistent with my point, which was that the market keeps moving, as our various daliances with Dawson have shown.

But whilst I'm generally supportive of the club's approach to the transfer market, we do seem to be intransigent. Dawson was our first choice, but eventually we moved onto a second or even third choice - presumably not someone Dyche rates as highly for whatever reason (I rate Gibson highly). Sometimes, that's what you've got to do. But it does feel that too often, we end up getting "stuck" - trying to prize a player away from a club who do not want to sell for a fee we're willing to pay, and in the end getting no-one. Sometimes, that's a valid ploy. But when you leave yourself short in a key department, its not something you ought to be making a habit of. We do, and which suggests that given the common denominator is Burnley Football Club, we need to take a look at how and why we end up in that position. We don't always appear to learn the lessons of the past.

Gibson might not have been available when Dawson was being regarded as first choice. The Gibson signing came out of nowhere by the looks of it and happened very quickly.

[theroyaldyche]

Gibson might not have been available when Dawson was being regarded as first choice. The Gibson signing came out of nowhere by the looks of it and happened very quickly.

i wouldnt be surprised if Gibson had been planned for a while

[dsr]

How far are we pushing this, you seem to indicate what happened at Portsmouth was a disaster. Where does that disaster rank against, say, the 2004 Tsunami?

Again to try and keep it simple - very simple - Portsmouth are a football club, so I was using a football comparison to equate to a football situation. Football is the common theme, you see. Trying to compare human lives lost with football is a pretty tacky exercise, and "disaster" in terms of human tragedy has a different meaning to "disaster" in terms of bad news for a football club.

But there, I've made it too complicated again, haven't I. Sorry.

[Bordeauxclaret]

No I see what you mean, as I’m sure you did earlier on. I’m just going to play the game of being equally pedantic.

[dsr]

Pedanty aside, this window could have been a lot lot worse. There's two ways to have a disastrous window - one is to not sign any good players, the other is to sign bad players. If we had spent an extra £40m or so on players Dyche didn't really want or that aren't good enough, that would be potentially disastrous.

[KRBFC]

Pedanty aside, this window could have been a lot lot worse. There's two ways to have a disastrous window - one is to not sign any good players, the other is to sign bad players. If we had spent an extra £40m or so on players Dyche didn't really want or that aren't good enough, that would be potentially disastrous.

Yeah imagine being Portsmouth or Salford City, crazy really.

[Devils_Advocate]

Pedanty aside, this window could have been a lot lot worse. There's two ways to have a disastrous window - one is to not sign any good players, the other is to sign bad players. If we had spent an extra £40m or so on players Dyche didn't really want or that aren't good enough, that would be potentially disastrous.

So not signing enough good players or signing bad players = not a good transfer window. Well blow me down I think we are in agreement so lets apply our agreed logic to Burnley's situation

Have we signed some bad players - No (phew)
Have we not signed enough good players - Yes (damn)

Looks like so far (there is still time to put things right) we agree its not been a good window for our club

[Funkydrummer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3HQMbQAWRc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ElectroClaret]

There's two ways to have a disastrous window - one is to not sign any good players, the other is to sign bad players.

There's a third way....losing some of your best troops.

From that point of view, it's been a success.
Particularly if, as expected, Ben Mee signs up.

[TVC15]

Regarding Gibson rather than Keane - OK, but that's not inconsistent with my point, which was that the market keeps moving, as our various daliances with Dawson have shown.

But whilst I'm generally supportive of the club's approach to the transfer market, we do seem to be intransigent. Dawson was our first choice, but eventually we moved onto a second or even third choice - presumably not someone Dyche rates as highly for whatever reason (I rate Gibson highly). Sometimes, that's what you've got to do. But it does feel that too often, we end up getting "stuck" - trying to prize a player away from a club who do not want to sell for a fee we're willing to pay, and in the end getting no-one. Sometimes, that's a valid ploy. But when you leave yourself short in a key department, its not something you ought to be making a habit of. We do, and which suggests that given the common denominator is Burnley Football Club, we need to take a look at how and why we end up in that position. We don't always appear to learn the lessons of the past.

It’s not inconsistent with my point either - ie we go for one target and the other club (or player or agent) come back with figures that are not acceptable to us and we move on to another target which is within our boundaries.

We have moved these boundaries massively in the last 5 years both in terms of fees and wages but I cannot see how a player at Dawson’s age who has never played international football can be valued at £20m. He would have zero resale value and we would also have to pay him at least £3m a year for 3 or 4 years.

There are a lot of assumptions made on this board about Burnley’s failings in the transfer market and frequent reference to us being the only club with these kind of problems.

Maybe we are more cautious than most. Maybe we are slower than most. But do you think Everton fans talk about how great it was to get their signings in early last summer ? Or do you think they are talking about how they managed to pi-ss £100m plus on sh-ite players who they are now having to sell at knock down prices ?

Many teams would die for our transfer record in the last few years. Struggling to see how this can be down to luck.

[Zom Zom]

Spurs have not signed anybody yet. Not even a young winger from York City.

If it's not right for the club then the people that make the decisions are absolutely doing the right thing.

And I'm as frustrated and disappointed as anybody that we haven't made any waves with transfers. These are massive figures we have to deal with and we can do without haemorraghing money if the deal isn't right.

Three days left, I am certain things will hot up prior to Jim White announcing the window has 'slammed shut.
Keep the faith.

[brunlea99]

There is a snippet in today's Daily Telegraph that says:

" Burnley are poised to make a new £18 million bid for Jay Rodriguez, the West Brom striker. Sean Dyche is pushing the Championship club to sell Rodriguez before the deadline and will make another offer in the next 24 hours.West Brom rejected a bid worth up to £16 million for the England international last week."

[Cubanclaret]

Can’t see wba selling if they’ve no replacement lined up. Hal Robson Kanu and Dwight Gayle ain’t going to be enough to get them promoted.

[Pearcey]

Hope this happens. He’d be a quality signing.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Spurs being linked now.

[Granny WeatherWax]

Spurs being linked now.

Game over if true

[SGr]

Getting tired of hearing about Jay Rod now. Pursued him all window (not for the first time) and we’ve got nowhere. He’s a good player, but I really don’t think it was worth all this effort. Should’ve moved on ages ago. Gibson was a good deal, but it’s just not enough. Poor, poor window.

[BabylonClaret]

Ffs. Its the nibble nibble nibble approach that is frustrating. If the 18m is true we clearly want him so why not put that out instead of the 16m last week?

Either that does it or it doesnt. Then we have a bit more time if wba refuse (they really are arsey to do busoness with) or we are gazumped.

People are defending the approach by saying the club are not penny pi ching for the sake of a couple of million. This is exactly penny pinching for a couple of million especially when (as I said previously) we have spent pretty much the square root of **** all of the sky money on transfer fees over the last 18 months.

Like Spice I am generally supportive of the club in our transfer dealings but sometimes we seem to be overly stubborn in our cautiousness. And yes i realise we are increasing the wage bill too (in fact thats the biggest issue for us really) but even so we have posted huge profits for the last 3 years. Sometimes i think we need ti be just a bit less risk averse.

[Goobs]

Getting tired of hearing about Jay Rod now. Pursued him all window (not for the first time) and we’ve got nowhere. He’s a good player, but I really don’t think it was worth all this effort. Should’ve moved on ages ago. Gibson was a good deal, but it’s just not enough. Poor, poor window.

Oh shut up you tart there is still two days left!

[NL Claret]

How can a transfer window be judged (a) before it has finished and (b) the success can only be quantified in January or May?

Every season is the same, transfer dealing slated by the UTC experts. I'm certain we have stayed in the PL for 2 seasons and won the championship, must have done something right.

Anyway, as you were.

[SGr]

Oh shut up you tart there is still two days left!

I hope they are used wisely...

[John Johnson 1605]

Getting tired of hearing about Jay Rod now. Pursued him all window (not for the first time) and we’ve got nowhere. He’s a good player, but I really don’t think it was worth all this effort. Should’ve moved on ages ago. Gibson was a good deal, but it’s just not enough. Poor, poor window.

Agreed.

If Jay originated from another town, starting his career elsewhere, reactions to the club spending upwards of 16 million would be lukewarm at best.

We should have moved on weeks ago.

[Goobs]

I hope they are used wisely...

Have faith. it is the least SD and the board deserve after the last 5 years.

[Lord Beamish]

Pedanty aside, this window could have been a lot lot worse.

It’s pedantry.

[Corky]

It’s pedantry.

What a fanny

[Spijed]

Ffs. Its the nibble nibble nibble approach that is frustrating. If the 18m is true we clearly want him so why not put that out instead of the 16m last week?

Either that does it or it doesnt. Then we have a bit more time if wba refuse (they really are arsey to do busoness with) or we are gazumped.

People are defending the approach by saying the club are not penny pi ching for the sake of a couple of million. This is exactly penny pinching for a couple of million especially when (as I said previously) we have spent pretty much the square root of **** all of the sky money on transfer fees over the last 18 months.

Like Spice I am generally supportive of the club in our transfer dealings but sometimes we seem to be overly stubborn in our cautiousness. And yes i realise we are increasing the wage bill too (in fact thats the biggest issue for us really) but even so we have posted huge profits for the last 3 years. Sometimes i think we need ti be just a bit less risk averse.

And yet our transfer record is the envy of the majority of clubs in the Premier league!

[Pearcey]

It’s pedantry.

[Lord Beamish]

What a fanny

Words wound, you know.

[Quickenthetempo]

And yet our transfer record is the envy of the majority of clubs in the Premier league!

Have you conducted a survey?

Just a strange thing to say.

[BabylonClaret]

And yet our transfer record is the envy of the majority of clubs in the Premier league!

Happy to accept that Spij if there is some evidence to back it up?

Like i say broadly i support our approach. We are careful in who we target and tgat works well for us. But if you don't end up getting players in that you need it's in danger of being riskier than a riskier approach to targets (if that makes sense).

It is a tough one really becasue we cant afford to make many big mistakes so harder to take a lot of risks - we had two last season that didnt come off (or at least not yet) but in de risking our targets we effectively inflate what we have to pay.

Other clubs know our preference is a smaller pool of well understood targets- it puts all the negotiating weight in their hands unless they "have" to sell. Someone else talked about easy targets on another thread and that sums it up. Our strategy works really well on those targets (see the deal we got on Gibson) but we need to change our approach for more tricky ones. We dont seem to which could be why we lose out on key targets every year.

Its not a new thing this - our record oveer the last 4 years is dogged pursuit of one or two players throughout a window - nibbling upwards bit by bit until in the ned we dont get the player we want. Quite often we return for players in multiple windows too yet still cant manage to land them. Im struggling to think of anyone we managed to sign after a long pritracted chase except Jeff (but we lost out on Stephens at the same time)

Of course it could be an elaborate smokescreen to cover up our approaches for others - in fact i hope it is that rather than the same old approach that looks like it isnt working.

[TVC15]

Have you conducted a survey?

Just a strange thing to say.

Not so strange at all.
Which clubs have a better record than us ?
It’s a pretty reasonable guess to say other clubs would like to have bought Tarks, Pope, Mee, Tripps, Gray, Keane, Heaton and JBG for less than £15m and brought in £50m by selling 2 of them with the other 5 currently worth best part of a £100m.

Not sure a survey is really that necessary !

[TVC15]

Babylon - see answer above.
Our record in the last 4 years is a bit more than the dogged pursuit of a couple of players.
People are just focusing on the ones that didn’t happen.

Oh and I forgot Jack Cork, Lowton, Ward and Defour...total transfer fees about £17m....current worth = ??....conservatively £30m ?

[Tall Paul]

Its not a new thing this - our record oveer the last 4 years is dogged pursuit of one or two players throughout a window - nibbling upwards bit by bit until in the ned we dont get the player we want. Quite often we return for players in multiple windows too yet still cant manage to land them. Im struggling to think of anyone we managed to sign after a long pritracted chase except Jeff (but we lost out on Stephens at the same time)

Brady
Tarkowski
Lennon
Wells

It's really hard to make the argument that our transfer record isn't good when it's played a massive part in taking us to our highest league position in 40 odd years.

[BabylonClaret]

Its nearer 25m for those i think TVC15 but your point is still a decent one. Its a differwnt view on what makes a good record o suppose. Some teams bring players tbroigh an academy and make money that way. Sone teams splash cash on established players and some mix it.

And as a counter you cant simply pick the successful signings here in value terms. You have to add Juke, Walters, Bardsley, Wells etc to that cost (not that i was against signing Walters ot Bardsley who i thoight were astute captures for overall squad).

The call for evidence on others' opinion on our policy is a fair call regardless of your point.

[dsr]

Its nearer 25m for those i think TVC15 but your point is still a decent one. Its a differwnt view on what makes a good record o suppose. Some teams bring players tbroigh an academy and make money that way. Sone teams splash cash on established players and some mix it.

And as a counter you cant simply pick the successful signings here in value terms. You have to add Juke, Walters, Bardsley, Wells etc to that cost (not that i was against signing Walters ot Bardsley who i thoight were astute captures for overall squad).

The call for evidence on others' opinion on our policy is a fair call regardless of your point.

The costs of Walters and Bardsley can't be called wasted. You have to have reserve players; if those reserve players aren't needed because the first teamers don't get injured, then clearly you've spent money that did bring any value but it was still money that had to be spent.

[Quickenthetempo]

Not so strange at all.
Which clubs have a better record than us ?
It’s a pretty reasonable guess to say other clubs would like to have bought Tarks, Pope, Mee, Tripps, Gray, Keane, Heaton and JBG for less than £15m and brought in £50m by selling 2 of them with the other 5 currently worth best part of a £100m.

Not sure a survey is really that necessary !

You have picked the best ones out. If you list all the transfers brought in for the premier league it would be average I would think.

The points why it's strange though.

Most premier league fans don't give two hoots about paying over the odds for players, some even love the biggest spenders tag.
Most premier league fans want the big name foreigner in their side.
Most premier league fans don't want their clubs buying from the championship, they want to be taking the best players from the best clubs.
Watford fans aren't happy with signing Gray
Everton fans aren't happy signing Keane.

I'm happy with our transfers but to claim we are envied by all other clubs is bizarre.

[BabylonClaret]

Brady
Tarkowski
Lennon
Wells

It's really hard to make the argument that our transfer record isn't good when it's played a massive part in taking us to our highest league position in 40 odd years.

No. The windfall of the first promotuon under Dyche which was completely unexpected is what properly cemented our position. Transfer dealing before then was up and down. Since then its been cautious and fairly targeted and as i have said already broadly i rhink this has worked well for us.

But the argument is we seem to have a single approach and this has left us without cover in key positions on more than one occasion. We still have tome here but it is tight and i expect us to make a couple of "easy" signings such as the Vryda type or Wells (not sure why you quoted him as a chase for a long time - he was injured and had refused a contract so was a classic "have" to sell player when we p8nged 5m at them at the end of the window).

At least i hope so.

All the players you quote btw are examples of when our strategy works as these are "have to sell" targets? Confused as to how that counters the idea that we seem to have an inability to prise our key targets away when clubs dont have to sell. If you are serious about these players then you have to cough up.

[Tall Paul]

No. The windfall of the first promotuon under Dyche which was completely unexpected is what properly cemented our position. Transfer dealing before then was up and down. Since then its been cautious and fairly targeted and as i have said already broadly i rhink this has worked well for us.

But the argument is we seem to have a single approach and this has left us without cover in key positions on more than one occasion. We still have tome here but it is tight and i expect us to make a couple of "easy" signings such as the Vryda type or Wells (not sure why you quoted him as a chase for a long time - he was injured and had refused a contract so was a classic "have" to sell player when we p8nged 5m at them at the end of the window).

At least i hope so.

All the players you quote btw are examples of when our strategy works as these are "have to sell" targets? Confused as to how that counters the idea that we seem to have an inability to prise our key targets away when clubs dont have to sell. If you are serious about these players then you have to cough up.

They were all examples of players that we signed after being linked in multiple transfer windows. We were first linked with Wells years ago.

[TVC15]

Its nearer 25m for those i think TVC15 but your point is still a decent one. Its a differwnt view on what makes a good record o suppose. Some teams bring players tbroigh an academy and make money that way. Sone teams splash cash on established players and some mix it.

And as a counter you cant simply pick the successful signings here in value terms. You have to add Juke, Walters, Bardsley, Wells etc to that cost (not that i was against signing Walters ot Bardsley who i thoight were astute captures for overall squad).

The call for evidence on others' opinion on our policy is a fair call regardless of your point.

It’s not £25m at all. £16m for Defour and Cork, £1.5m for Lowton and Ward on a free.

Of course I listed only the good transfers - but I have said on this board many times name me another club with less expensive mistakes than Burnley.

And I’ve also missed out a few players like Arfield, Vokes, Barnes, Jones - who cost in total £1m (and we got £1.8m for Jones !). We even made money on the likes of Darwika

You are asking for evidence to support my opinion - the facts are irrefutable. Our net spend in the last 6 or 7 years is incredible given the players we have brought to the club have brought us 2 promotions and 4 seasons in the Premier League. Tell me another club that has spent zero to generate the amount of income (and profit) that Burnley has achieved over this period.

But putting money aside what the fans really want is success on the pitch - and to go back to someone else’s point above i’m not sure fans want this at any cost if there is s risk that their club ends up like Sunderland , Portsmouth, Leeds etc. The poster is saying fans don’t care where the money is coming from to find their transfers or overpaying for players - not sure where he gets that from - maybe he’s taken a survey ?!!

[jtv]

........ If the 18m is true we clearly want him so why not put that out instead of the 16m last week?

Ever heard of negotiations? If we had offered 18m last week would WBA have countered with 24m?

[TVC15]

You have picked the best ones out. If you list all the transfers brought in for the premier league it would be average I would think.

Average ?
In what possible way would they be average ?
By my reckoning you need to find around £150m of poor transfers for it to be considered average.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say we have made £20m of transfers where we would struggle (or did struggle) to get our money back....Walters, Wells, Juke, Sordell, Hendrick and possibly Westwood (at a push). We would still recoup at least £7m from these players....so a fraction of the successful transfers.

I’m struggling to work out why our record in the transfer market is even up for debate

[Goobs]

Ever heard of negotiations? If we had offered 18m last week would WBA have countered with 24m?

You clearly don't know how transfers work mate.

We want a player, we ask the selling club how much they want, they give us a fair and honest price and we then pay that. It is sooo simple! I really don't understand why you or our feeble recruitment team can't understand this and why we can't get signings sewn up in 5 minutes...

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Exactly everyone knows how simple transfer negotiations are and the ins and outs of every detail of the deal.

[Quickenthetempo]

Average ?
In what possible way would they be average ?
By my reckoning you need to find around £150m of poor transfers for it to be considered average.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say we have made £20m of transfers where we would struggle (or did struggle) to get our money back....Walters, Wells, Juke, Sordell, Hendrick and possibly Westwood (at a push). We would still recoup at least £7m from these players....so a fraction of the successful transfers.

I’m struggling to work out why our record in the transfer market is even up for debate

I'm debating the fact that other premier league fans won't be bothered about our transfers like Spijed claimed and certainly not jealous.

For example the two transfers that bigger clubs fans might of been jealous of last season are Richarlison at Watford. Very talented young Brazillian, and Pascal Gross at Brighton.