ARTICLE: Clucas and Rodriguez signings beginning to look less likely

[BabylonClaret]

Ever heard of negotiations? If we had offered 18m last week would WBA have countered with 24m?

Yes actually. I spent 3 years on a national pay bargaining team. The idea is that both parties move together to a point where both are happy. And find out quickly if there is a point where this will happen or whether we need to walk away. Because walking away if there isnt a point if agreement available is also a successful negotiation.

West Brom could easily ask for 24m but unlikely if they do want to sell. Especially as they put out 20m was likely to be successful. But even if they did we say no thanks and move on. Point being thst we forced their hand quicker and gives us more timw to react. We clearly think he is worth 18m so why bother with an offer a couple of million above our last offer (ie 16m was a bit above the 25m fir both players) which was a long way from the 20m valuation by wba. So put out the 18 last week to show we are serious but also make it clear we are at our limit here.

Paul - come on. Be serious. Wells? That interest was rather fleeti g in the past and felt more like - he's availabke now? How much? - last year rather than a long term target.

Look. Im broadly positive but you cant ignore the fact that when it comes to landing tpugher targets the evidence isnt outstanding.

Dawson x2
Rodriguez x2
Bryson
Lansbury x about a million
Stephens

All serious targets we have failed to land through our lowball nibble strategy. Now we have done pretty well regardless - but these were all seen by the management team as priority targets and all of them werent poached. They stayed put becasue the sellers were stubborn. We tend to bully lower teams a bit to get what we want but it doesnt work all the time

[TVC15]

So you were jealous of Pascal Gross signing for Brighton ?
And you think fans are not jealous of us bagging Tarks, Pope and JBG for less than £5m in total ?

Or are you just taking about the initial transfer excitement ? Because I agree that I doubt anyone batted an eyelid when we bought those 3 players. But then again i usually think that when one of the smaller clubs buys a recognised overseas player that they are being screwed and the player is over the hill and just going to the Prenier League for one last big pay day - and a lot of the time they are abject and expensive failures just like the likes of Jesse Rodriguez.
Jealousy is not exactly what i’m thinking when I here these transfers - neither is it when I here someone has signed a “young Brazilian”

[burnley007]

The club and management team are doing a remarkable job. They have earned my 100% unwavering trust.

Proud to be a Claret. I spent the 1st 40 years of my life being patted on the head as a quirky-little-old-Burnley fan.
I'll continue to sit back and admire how well my club is being run.

[TVC15]

Yes actually. I spent 3 years on a national pay bargaining team. The idea is that both parties move together to a point where both are happy. And find out quickly if there is a point where this will happen or whether we need to walk away. Because walking away if there isnt a point if agreement available is also a successful negotiation.

West Brom could easily ask for 24m but unlikely if they do want to sell. Especially as they put out 20m was likely to be successful. But even if they did we say no thanks and move on. Point being thst we forced their hand quicker and gives us more timw to react. We clearly think he is worth 18m so why bother with an offer a couple of million above our last offer (ie 16m was a bit above the 25m fir both players) which was a long way from the 20m valuation by wba. So put out the 18 last week to show we are serious but also make it clear we are at our limit here.

Paul - come on. Be serious. Wells? That interest was rather fleeti g in the past and felt more like - he's availabke now? How much? - last year rather than a long term target.

Look. Im broadly positive but you cant ignore the fact that when it comes to landing tpugher targets the evidence isnt outstanding.

Dawson x2
Rodriguez x2
Bryson
Lansbury x about a million
Stephens

All serious targets we have failed to land through our lowball nibble strategy. Now we have done pretty well regardless - but these were all seen by the management team as priority targets and all of them werent poached. They stayed put becasue the sellers were stubborn. We tend to bully lower teams a bit to get what we want but it doesnt work all the time

Bryson signed a 5 year deal on £25k a week for Derby and then almost immediately ended up on the bench. You would have rather us signed him ?

Lansbury - they wanted far too much money for him and it’s been proven he was not worth the money Forest wanted.

The one deal you mention which I think we got badly wrong was Dawson when we were first interested - but even then we don’t know the full details

[dsr]

Look. Im broadly positive but you cant ignore the fact that when it comes to landing tpugher targets the evidence isnt outstanding.

Dawson x2
Rodriguez x2
Bryson
Lansbury x about a million
Stephens

All serious targets we have failed to land through our lowball nibble strategy. Now we have done pretty well regardless - but these were all seen by the management team as priority targets and all of them werent poached. They stayed put becasue the sellers were stubborn. We tend to bully lower teams a bit to get what we want but it doesnt work all the time

And instead we have Defour, Westwood, Cork and Hendrick for the midfield. Would we have been better off if we'd completed the deals for Lansbury, Bryson and Stephens? I'm not convinced. If any of those players had been the "must buy at all costs" type we could have bought them; perhaps they were "good option but we have other options" sort of player, and not worth the £millions premium payable.

[Tall Paul]

Look. Im broadly positive but you cant ignore the fact that when it comes to landing tpugher targets the evidence isnt outstanding.

Dawson x2
Rodriguez x2
Bryson
Lansbury x about a million
Stephens

All serious targets we have failed to land through our lowball nibble strategy. Now we have done pretty well regardless - but these were all seen by the management team as priority targets and all of them werent poached. They stayed put becasue the sellers were stubborn. We tend to bully lower teams a bit to get what we want but it doesnt work all the time

You seem to be using the fact that we didn't sign these players as the evidence that they were the "tougher targets".

[claretblue]

Jay wanted at Spurs?

https://www.footballfancast.com/premier ... -rodriguez" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ClaretAndJew]

Boden claiming deal not dead despite our interest in Vydra.

[kaptin1]

Sky saying we've upped our offer to £18m

[claretspice]

It’s not inconsistent with my point either - ie we go for one target and the other club (or player or agent) come back with figures that are not acceptable to us and we move on to another target which is within our boundaries.

We have moved these boundaries massively in the last 5 years both in terms of fees and wages but I cannot see how a player at Dawson’s age who has never played international football can be valued at £20m. He would have zero resale value and we would also have to pay him at least £3m a year for 3 or 4 years.

There are a lot of assumptions made on this board about Burnley’s failings in the transfer market and frequent reference to us being the only club with these kind of problems.

Maybe we are more cautious than most. Maybe we are slower than most. But do you think Everton fans talk about how great it was to get their signings in early last summer ? Or do you think they are talking about how they managed to pi-ss £100m plus on sh-ite players who they are now having to sell at knock down prices ?

Many teams would die for our transfer record in the last few years. Struggling to see how this can be down to luck.

There are two separate issues that I think you are conflating. One is identifying and signing players who prove to be good signings. The other is about the way in which we then go about signing them, or trying to sign them. Everton's problem last season wasn't necessarily the money they paid out, it was who they spent it on (or indeed the fact they didn't buy with enough balance - no-one thought we forced them to overpay for Keane at the time).

I'm fully supportive of our general strategy in the transfer market and our identification of key targets. Our success rate is excellent, particularly when we're spending more than £6-7 million quid where it appears to me to be virtually flawless. My complaint is that we don't commit to that strategy in the way we then deal with prospective sellers, and we don't accept that the downside of the strategy - solid though it is - is that we will sometimes overpay, precisely because the signings are low risk.

If Rodriguez (or for that matter Dawson) comes in and does the job Dyche wants him to do, and we therefore finish well placed in the Premier League and perhaps have a cup run, then whether or not we pay £15 million or £20 million will be largely besides the point. It will pay for itself many times over. but if we felt WBA were overvaluing, then fine - we should have moved on quite a long time ago.

Ironically, the risk we have now is that for the sake of say £4 million more on Rodriguez' transfer fee, we might end up paying £11-12 million on a player who is altogether more likely to flop because he doesn't come with the CV that Rodriguez has. I say that even though I quite like the look of Vydra on paper and I think he's the sort of potential signing who would deserve to be given every chance. End up switching to lesser targets too often for the sake of an extra 10-20% in the market, and you're actually increasing your chances of bringing in "expensive flops". Or alternatively, failing to get in someone at all in a key position - which as we found 5 years ago when Marney got injured the day after the window shut, dramatically increases your chances of finding yourselves unnecessarily exposed.

[TVC15]

Thanks for pointing out my “conflation” but i’m fine thanks - just taken some cream for it.

You are over complicating the issue and making several assumptions about the potential Jay Rod deal.

In very simple terms Dyche and Garlick will have a figure they are not prepared to exceed for the whole package of any transfer based on the value they put on the individual player.

Yes this figure can change as our own situation changes with injuries or other incomings / outgoings but none of us know the details of the deals....or the boundaries within which we are working.

What we do know, however, is the success the club is achieving on the pitch and financially and from my own point of view i’m more than satisfied with the outcomes without thinking I know how to do their jobs better than they do - especially when like all fans I have a fraction of the detail.

What other walk of life would people criticise a business strategy without knowing any detail when that business is over achieving massively ?

[BabylonClaret]

What we do know, however, is the success the club is achieving on the pitch and financially and from my own point of view i’m more than satisfied with the outcomes without thinking I know how to do their jobs better than they do - especially when like all fans I have a fraction of the detail.

What other walk of life would people criticise a business strategy without knowing any detail when that business is over achieving massively ?

I dont think anyone is doubting overall the strategy works. Nor do we necessarily think getting Stephens over Defour would be better (or worse for that matter). As Spice points out, the downside is for a tough target we may need to pay more but seem unwilling and thr numbers are small in the context.

Either agree its off limit or shell up. Dont **** about trying to shave 2m off a fee when we made 15 tines that in profit last year. It potentially may leave us short or having to buy a "Wells" option to ensure we have cover. The criticism here is not "oh what a ******* disaster we havent shelled out millions for JayRod" its "hey we are in danger of missing out here on alternat8ves or main targets becasue we are focusing on a main target but not prepared to really go for it"

None of us know the ins and outs of course but historicslly we have form for nibbling and so if i were a selling club i would hang on until we nibbked upwards

[dsr]

... trying to shave 2m off a fee when we made 15 tines that in profit last year. It potentially may leave us short ...

... if i were a selling club i would hang on until we nibbked upwards

conversely, if we get a reputation for paying the odd £2m no questions asked, the selling club knows what to do then as well. What would Middlesbrough have asked for Gibson if we'd had a reputation for not quibbling over the odd £2m?

And the other issue is that if we sign say 5 players for the odd £2m non-shaved extras, that's £10m that we can't spend in future. Dry powder can be useful!

[KRBFC]

conversely, if we get a reputation for paying the odd £2m no questions asked, the selling club knows what to do then as well. What would Middlesbrough have asked for Gibson if we'd had a reputation for not quibbling over the odd £2m?

And the other issue is that if we sign say 5 players for the odd £2m non-shaved extras, that's £10m that we can't spend in future. Dry powder can be useful!

Oh what would Portsmouth do

[claretspice]

Thanks for pointing out my “conflation” but i’m fine thanks - just taken some cream for it.

You are over complicating the issue and making several assumptions about the potential Jay Rod deal.

In very simple terms Dyche and Garlick will have a figure they are not prepared to exceed for the whole package of any transfer based on the value they put on the individual player.

Yes this figure can change as our own situation changes with injuries or other incomings / outgoings but none of us know the details of the deals....or the boundaries within which we are working.

What we do know, however, is the success the club is achieving on the pitch and financially and from my own point of view i’m more than satisfied with the outcomes without thinking I know how to do their jobs better than they do - especially when like all fans I have a fraction of the detail.

What other walk of life would people criticise a business strategy without knowing any detail when that business is over achieving massively ?

I think we've reached the point in the debate where the tone begins to degenerate a bit, so probably best to move on. Debating whether the board's transfer strategy is perfect or could be refined doesn't involve anyone thinking they could do a better job, any more than a debate about whether Hendrick or Vokes should start involves someone presuming they could do Dyche's job for them. Its the life blood of a football messageboard, really.

[COBBLE]

A pre agreement that Vokes goes to Middlesboro subject to us getting Jay R may have smoothed the Gibson deal. I can imaging Pulis wanting
to build an attack around Sam.

[piston broke]

JRod in, Sam out. Would be the readies towards incoming. Would probably mean Wells stays, unless Vydra comes in.
Don’t really want Sam to go but I feel he is third choice as striker. Jay would make that fourth.

[jlup1980]

Boden claiming deal not dead despite our interest in Vydra.

We should be looking to sign both as all our current issues would be resolved very quickly!!

Hendrick would drop back to his more natural CM position and fight for the shirt alongside Cork, Defour and Westwood. Vydra is a no.10 and Jay Rod can play all along the front - either wing, as a no.10 or up front. The squad would be very strong in my opinion. We could do with shifting Wells and Walters though!!

If every one was fit we'd have serious options!

GK - Pope, Heaton, Hart, Lindegaard
RB - Lowton, Bardsley
LB - Ward, Taylor
CB - Tarkowski, Mee, Gibson, Long
CM - Defour, Cork, Hendrick, Westwood
Wingers - Brady, JBG, Lennon
No.10's - Jay Rod, Vydra
ST - Wood, Barnes, Vokes

[Cubanclaret]

You'd have thought after this summer long chase that we'd given up by now if there wasn't some genuine interest at the other end.

I wonder whether Vokes and Jay Rod in a cash+swap deal would make more sense given West Brom have lost Rondon.

[TVC15]

I think we've reached the point in the debate where the tone begins to degenerate a bit, so probably best to move on. Debating whether the board's transfer strategy is perfect or could be refined doesn't involve anyone thinking they could do a better job, any more than a debate about whether Hendrick or Vokes should start involves someone presuming they could do Dyche's job for them. Its the life blood of a football messageboard, really.

Completely different to having an opinion on a player and who you think should get picked. Nobody in that scenario thinks they are a better footballer manager than Dyche but they can see with their own eyes both of them playing football and form an opinion based on that.

“Refining” a transfer strategy with only knowing a fraction of the detail of each deal or what the club is up against is akin to watching the game for 5 minutes and then walking out and expressing an opinion on which player you think was great or rubbish.

The reports in the press about transfer fees, wage demands etc are 99% fabricated - yet that is pretty much the only level of detail fans are basing their views on.

[Conroy92]

'Just an observation' .......

I think you'll be pretty disappointed then.

.

..
.

.

Harts now signed and another subject to a medical today, only need one more to not have been disappointed eh silky?

[claretspice]

Completely different to having an opinion on a player and who you think should get picked. Nobody in that scenario thinks they are a better footballer manager than Dyche but they can see with their own eyes both of them playing football and form an opinion based on that.

Fans still form opinions on what the team should be. That involves disagreeing with the manager sometimes. However informed or otherwise, by your logic it still involves thinking you know more than the manager.

I don't get into the debate about the specifics of transfers because you are right, they are complicated things. However, there's enough information out there, and enough of a trend over a long period of time, to form a general view on our approach to business. I won't speak for other people, but that's all I'm basing my thoughts on. There's enough information out there to form a sensible, nuanced opinion.

Anyway, Vydra for Wells looks like a decent piece of business on paper. Lets get back to talking football, provided we can respect each other's right to form and hold an opinion based on whatever information is in the public domain.

[TVC15]

Yep agree there claretspice.

My point on transfer dealings is not really directed at you as you are not criticising the club and putting forward logical and reasonable arguments for improvement

It’s directed at comments like disgrace, shambles, clueless and even things like an “average” transfer record.
Just find this a little impossible to reconcile when you look at the facts and it just smells of fans who will never be satisfied whoever we sign or however well we do on or off the pitch

[burnley007]

Will Jay Rod play tonight?

[BabylonClaret]

Agree there TVC15. I dont think you can call oir transfer business shambolic over the last four years.

And clearly we are now moving quickly on our targets too which is encouraging.

On Gibson i think our strategy is easier because he clearly had a promise to move if an offer came in so its much more in our court rhan wba who dont need to sell Jay or Dawson (but they are waljing a thin line too as they could end up with two unsettled players and 25m worse off)