Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

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Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by SmudgetheClaret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:15 pm

Populism and right leaning parties make up the vast majority of voter growth right across europe,I put it down to the fake news media being rumbled by the mass populations..
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by burnleymik » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:23 pm

I think in general the left advocate for more of the same and people are tired of it.

Let's also not forget the divisiveness of identity politics and such and finally I agree, with all the information we have out there now, the media cannot control the narrative as easily and people can finally see both sides of the arguments and formulate their own opinions.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by SGr » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:24 pm

Media is the biggest reason. Props up a government that allows for declining wage growth and NHS funding cuts by scapegoating immigrants and the EU.

But, if you take things in the Wetherspoon magazine as gospel, you’ve got to look at human common sense too.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by joey13 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:25 pm

Up the clarets football messageboard

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by SGr » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:25 pm

burnleymik wrote:with all the information we have out there now, the media cannot control the narrative as easily and people can finally see both sides of the arguments and formulate their own opinions.
Rupert Murdoch despises social media for exactly this reason. But, Brexit shows it can still be manipulated.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by NottsClaret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:28 pm

It goes in cycles. Right wing politics were pretty popular across Europe in the 30s for a time. Then seemed to tail off a bit when people decided they weren't that keen afterall.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:29 pm

Left-wing politics isn't dying. But right-wing politics is becoming more and more extreme as they get angrier and angrier at people who don't look, sound or pray like them.

To claim that left wing politics is dying now would be like saying that left wing politics was also dying in the early to mid-thirties.
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by SmudgetheClaret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:31 pm

Sorry Joey13..

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 pm

Any political party needs a figure head, someone who can fire the populous imagination and give them hope.
The left are bereft of anyone to have faith in. As a labour member who won't vote labour, its a nightmare.
The right wing is just as bad, but get away with it mostly because they are the present incumbents.
There is also a lot of apathy amongst voters of all ages. Those who have an interest in politics are still ardent, but too many people just couldn't care less. Sad but true.
The media do have an increasing force in pushing politics in the direction they want, but this is only possible due to those apathetic voters lack of knowledge.
The main reason though is because people are too comfortable. Despite food banks, and homelessness, the poverty we see today is incomparable to the poverty of the mid to late 20th century.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Lord Rothbury » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 pm

Seems to have died in Eastern Europe.They had it forced on them did not really like it too much hence the Berlin wall came down.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by martin_p » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:34 pm

burnleymik wrote:I think in general the left advocate for more of the same and people are tired of it.
That’s right, I remember Labour campaigning vigorously for the continuation of destructive austerity policies at the last election. They also argued that tax for the most well off should stay exactly the same as well.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by northernpowerhouse » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:37 pm

I would say because social democratic parties across the world embraced the free-market and betrayed all their longstanding principles. That's why Labour have enjoyed a partial recovery under Corbyn: because they returned to their social democratic roots started opposing unfettered capitalism again.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by SmudgetheClaret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:37 pm

Some would say the left were very strong in the thirties..

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Pearcey » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:40 pm

Because it has been proven that socialism doesn’t work. France had the right idea voting for a centrist party.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:46 pm

Pearcey wrote:Because it has been proven that socialism doesn’t work. France had the right idea voting for a centrist party.
Present your proof.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:47 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Some would say the left were very strong in the thirties..

Not really. It was the forties when we beat your lot.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by claretandy » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:48 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Present your proof.
Prove that it does....

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:52 pm

claretandy wrote:Prove that it does....
Why should I?

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:56 pm

The Labour Party membership doubled to six hundred thousand since 2015, and the Green Party has seen a big rise too. When the main social democratic parties in Spain and Greece refused to give up neo liberal economics, they were replaced by parties more amenable to what people want. Parties that look after the rich are well funded, and well supported in the press; however they aren't winning the economic arguments (hence moving to appeals of 'blood and soil'), and so I think it's all up for grabs.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by SmudgetheClaret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:56 pm

Beat my lot ? coming from a family littered with servicemen across the decades does that mean fighting ourselves...

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by burnleymik » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:07 pm

AndrewJB wrote:The Labour Party membership doubled to six hundred thousand since 2015.

It's all the middle-class socialists. The ones who love to virtue signal, whilst having absolutely no idea about the realities on the ground.

From your beloved Independent...

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/th ... 73141.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

also:

https://www.economist.com/bagehots-note ... king-class" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And.. the Guardian.. all the bastions of your beloved left-wing media...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ked-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Pearcey » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:14 pm

Maybe proven was the wrong word but I can’t think of any country that has benefitted from Corbyn like socialism. It’s a lovely idea but it’s reliant on everyone pulling in the same direction and that will never happen. Massive companies would just leave the country and make money somewhere else. Then those employees are without a job and not paying income tax.

I consider myself to be left of centre but I would never vote for a socialist party like the current Labour Party. I also can’t vote for a Tory government. If only a proper centrist party could be formed!
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:20 pm

Pearcey wrote:Maybe proven was the wrong word but I can’t think of any country that has benefitted from Corbyn like socialism. It’s a lovely idea but it’s reliant on everyone pulling in the same direction and that will never happen. Massive companies would just leave the country and make money somewhere else. Then those employees are without a job and not paying income tax.

I consider myself to be left of centre but I would never vote for a socialist party like the current Labour Party. I also can’t vote for a Tory government. If only a proper centrist party could be formed!
Really? You can't think of a single socialist country that is doing well? None at all? If only there were socialist countries that the right-wing were waxing lyrical about in the months and years leading up to some kind of referendum we were having.

I guess we'll just never know of any. Not a single one.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Damo » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:24 pm

AndrewJB wrote:The Labour Party membership doubled to six hundred thousand since 2015
Literally thousands of Tories paid £2 to join to vote for Corbyn, therefore making them unelectable
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by ontario claret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:26 pm

What isn't worrying is the death of any particular brand of politics, but the death of democracy itself. As long as people are allowed to express their opinions through a legitimate voting process, civility should always reign.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by evensteadiereddie » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:28 pm

Aye and that turned out well for them, didn't it ? A "strong and stable government" that has proved to be nothing of the sort.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Spijed » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:31 pm

Damo wrote:Literally thousands of Tories paid £2 to join to vote for Corbyn, therefore making them unelectable
Is that why they managed to take seats like Canterbury?
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:31 pm

ontario claret wrote:What isn't worrying is the death of any particular brand of politics, but the death of democracy itself. As long as people are allowed to express their opinions through a legitimate voting process, civility should always reign.
The supposed beacon of democracy in the west isn't even a democracy. Its government is completely controlled by the minority party in a two-party system.
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Damo » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:34 pm

Spijed wrote:Is that why they managed to take seats like Canterbury?
No, that's despite that.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Clarets4me » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:36 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Left-wing politics isn't dying. But right-wing politics is becoming more and more extreme as they get angrier and angrier at people who don't look, sound or pray like them.
Left wing politicians need to stop shouting down people who don't see the world in the same way they do, and start to debate the issues, without labeling their opponents as far right, racist, fascist, basket of deplorables, thick, etc ...
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by burnleymik » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:37 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:Aye and that turned out well for them, didn't it ? A "strong and stable government" that has proved to be nothing of the sort.
Maybe if you learned how to quote, it would make it easier to understand who you were replying too?

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Damo » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:37 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:Aye and that turned out well for them, didn't it ? A "strong and stable government" that has proved to be nothing of the sort.
I'd say it did.
They are still in power despite being an absolute shambles.
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by burnleymik » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:39 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Left wing politicians need to stop shouting down people who don't see the world in the same way they do, and start to debate the issues, without labeling their opponents as far right, racist, fascist, basket of deplorables, thick, etc ...
This sums it up quite well. It seems to be you either agree with them or you are **insert derogatory label of choice**.

I genuinely believe it was this kind of behaviour that pushed a lot of people towards Brexit/Trump etc.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by evensteadiereddie » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:40 pm

They are in power but are not functioning as a government. Everyone loses.
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by gandhisflipflop » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:42 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Left wing politicians need to stop shouting down people who don't see the world in the same way they do, and start to debate the issues, without labeling their opponents as far right, racist, fascist, basket of deplorables, thick, etc ...

Not just the politicians, but the people who vote for them too. We have now got a generation of voters who know no different when it comes to these tactics as they have in my opinion been indocrinated under the umbrella of education.
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by ontario claret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:43 pm

The funny thing about the American system is that there was supposed to be all kinds of checks and balances built in, with the unelected judiciary overseeing everything. Right now, it isn't quite working. The last hope is this year's mid-terms. If the Democrats can get ahold of the House, and show a trend towards regaining the Senate, there should be a balance. The real problem is the absence of a third middle party.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Damo » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:44 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:They are in power but are not functioning as a government. Everyone loses.
Yes, but would they be if Burnham or Cooper won the leadership election?
I doubt very much the snap GE would of been called.
Even if there was a GE called tomorrow, I doubt Corbyn would win. A more centrist leader would oust the Tories by a landslide
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:45 pm

Pearcey wrote:Because it has been proven that socialism doesn’t work. France had the right idea voting for a centrist party.
I wouldn't say socialism doesn't work, more that extremism doesn't work, left or right.
Any party that can claim the middle ground for its own, is on a winner. Hence why I can't vote Labour, momentum are just communists in disguise.
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by CombatClaret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:46 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Populism and right leaning parties make up the vast majority of voter growth right across europe,I put it down to the fake news media being rumbled by the mass populations..
rumbled or discovered?

We live in a time where you can go weeks and months only seeing media which reinforces your world outlook. Facts, statistics and truths play second fiddle to opinions, experiences and fears.
Last edited by CombatClaret on Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:46 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Left wing politicians need to stop shouting down people who don't see the world in the same way they do, and start to debate the issues, without labeling their opponents as far right, racist, fascist, basket of deplorables, thick, etc ...
I can agree with that to an extent. But it's a defence that is used way too much.

It's perfectly reasonable to call people any one of those things if after being corrected on the facts of something they choose to continue believing their racist, fascistic, stupid "facts". But one of the problems is that I can turn around and call someone a nazi and immediately have someone like you jumping down my throat about how i'm only calling them a Nazi because they don't agree with me... (as he cloaks himself in a swastika flag which you haven't bothered to notice or care about).

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by ontario claret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:46 pm

The gerrymandering of the U.S. system isn't new. You lot invented it.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by burnleymik » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:47 pm

Theresa May and the Tories are doing an absolutely awful job, and I mean terrible. They are pleasing almost no-one on the biggest issues, including Brexit, but yet still they are polling ahead of Labour. I think that speaks absolute volumes...

Image

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Spiral » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:47 pm

burnleymik wrote:I genuinely believe it was this kind of behaviour that pushed a lot of people towards Brexit/Trump etc.
Wow. I'm sure Brexit voters are pleased to hear that their decision to vote to leave the EU was informed by a persecution complex.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:48 pm

gandhisflipflop wrote:Not just the politicians, but the people who vote for them too. We have now got a generation of voters who know no different when it comes to these tactics as they have in my opinion been indocrinated under the umbrella of education.

This is an example of an opinion it's perfectly fair to describe a "really ******* stupid": Education is indoctrination.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by ontario claret » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:49 pm

When you have only 2 legitimate parties, it just invites extremism. The party that yells the loudest "wins".

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:49 pm

burnleymik wrote:Theresa May and the Tories are doing an absolutely awful job, and I mean terrible. They are pleasing almost no-one on the biggest issues, including Brexit, but yet still they are polling ahead of Labour. I think that speaks absolute volumes...

[img*]http://i67.tinypic.com/b6ugw7.jpg[/img]
So you're saying that the right-wing capitalists in government are doing absolutely terrible? Got it.
Last edited by Imploding Turtle on Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by burnleymik » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:49 pm

Spiral wrote:Wow. I'm sure Brexit voters are pleased to hear that their decision to vote to leave the EU was informed by a persecution complex.
No. The very fact that they couldn't have civilised debates or discussions because they were immediately labelled, to be shut down, played a huge part. That is just my opinion.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:51 pm

ontario claret wrote:When you have only 2 legitimate parties, it just invites extremism. The party that yells the loudest "wins".
The party that lies the best wins, and the Tories and their media are experts.

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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:53 pm

This was an obvious problem with Corbyn and his attempt at being a decent, honest political leader who won't smear and lie about his opponent. He gets eaten alive by opponents for whom the truth doesn't really matter when it comes to influencing public opinion.
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Re: Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:54 pm

burnleymik wrote:It's all the middle-class socialists. The ones who love to virtue signal, whilst having absolutely no idea about the realities on the ground.

From your beloved Independent...

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/th ... 73141.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

also:

https://www.economist.com/bagehots-note ... king-class" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And.. the Guardian.. all the bastions of your beloved left-wing media...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ked-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You’re saying the wrong kind of socialists joined the party? Im middle class, but it doesn’t stop me seeing the terrible effects of austerity in the area I live in (which is most definitely working class). Those reports show that membership increased across all age and economic groups. It’s now the largest political party in Western Europe, and the rise in numbers is due to the new direction. People are tired of austerity, of being ripped off by utilities, and railway operators. Of the underfunding of the NHS, so the corporate tax rate can be lowered a little more. There’s nothing inevitable about the rich always getting richer, and nothing moral about kicking the poor. This is why the left is far from dead.
Last edited by AndrewJB on Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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