Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

[AndrewJB]

I see the point you are making, but it's by completely ignoring the point we were making.








Implied was referred to on this board. We have been called racists directly by people including Vince Cable. I could point you to thousands of posts on social media with those accusations, same in national newspapers, constantly trying to imply brexit voters have increased racism and xenophobia in the UK. There are plenty of examples, we have heard it for the last 2 years, yet you seem to think no one actually says it?

Incidents of reported racism have gone up since the referendum result: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 48021.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not saying all brexit people are racist or stupid, but the result has unleashed xenophobia within Britain to a degree that those holding racist opinions feel more free to express them publicly. I know quite a few decent people who voted leave who I would never call racist or thick, but I think we should all focus our attention on those people who have been on the receiving end of real face to face racial / religious / cultural abuse because the referendum result was never supposed to be about that. I'm sorry if you've been called a racist over the last few years, but your best response is to stand up for those who are being racially abused as a result of it.

[barba]

Although a targeted weapon of both left and right I feel that the rise of identity politics have made it harder for the left to generate a mass political base around shared economic interests.

Constantly dividing people up into smaller and smaller groups, has stalled the creation of a sense of unity around economic justice and as it is an obsession with difference, the divisions are potentially endless.

[Somethingfishy]

This very argument just proves my theory. Both sides think they are right. Lefties try to take the moral high ground because of the high profile instances in history of extreme right wing politics but in reality it is as dangerous..as has also been mentioned. It is quite pathetic really and gets nobody anywhere.
The reality is there is a large swing to the right in world politics in general. is it dangerous? Who knows..history suggests so. Why has this happened? Perhaps the liberal left has had its say for far too long and people have said enough is enough. The left is as much to blame for sleepwalking into this as the right is for heading down this path. Perhaps the policies of moderate right wing governments have caused the left to rise and see socialism as the solution..the extreme right rising in response.
Those of us in the middle are like a midfielder in a game between two long ball teams...constantly watching the ball flying over our heads.

Left wing politics has long been on its deathbed in this country. I really cannot get my head around why Labour has swung so far left. It wasn't needed and if they hadn't they would surely have been back in power and this mess we are in wouldn't have happened..well most of it anyway. It is tragic.

[Imploding Turtle]

It's estimated to be between 35,000,000 and 140,000,000 times in the last 100 years ....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_kill ... st_regimes

in what way is that related to left wing extremism today? There's a reason i've not accused modern right-wing extremism of being responsible for tens of millions of deaths at the hands of Nazism and religious extremism over the last 100 years - because it would be remarkably dumb.

So come on, tell me. What's the modern left-wing equivalent of modern right-wing extremism (it's really sad that discourse is so stupid these days that i have to specifically state "modern" extremism in a thread about modern politics) that murders gay people because they're gay, black and brown people because they're brown, Muslims and Jews because they're not Christians, and lefties because they're protesting Nazis?

[Colburn_Claret]

Although a targeted weapon of both left and right I feel that the rise of identity politics have made it harder for the left to generate a mass political base around shared economic interests.

Constantly dividing people up into smaller and smaller groups, has stalled the creation of a sense of unity around economic justice and as it is an obsession with difference, the divisions are potentially endless.

It's a good point. Back in the 60s 70s, it was all about working class man. Now it's ethnic minorities, religious diversion, and gay lib. I'm not saying that these things aren't worth defending, only it seems some people on the left are far more vociferous and pro active regarding these issues, than they are in fighting for the working class man. It almost feels as if we've been disenfranchised.
Feeling disenfranchised is what led to the Labour plummet in Scotland.

[RingoMcCartney]

It's estimated to be between 35,000,000 and 140,000,000 times in the last 100 years ....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_kill ... st_regimes

Always worth pointing out inconvenience truths

[IanMcL]

Labour has leadership in absentia.
Hoping that the Tory government is so poor, they don't have to do anything other than turn up and JC will become PM.

Leadership is about presenting a clear alternative path, with which those disaffected folk can identify. That is when support soars and the Government is shown to be bankrupt of thought and deed and only interested in self preservation.

Corbyn has no concept of leadership, only of sitting tight and waiting for mistakes he can exploit.

UK politics sucks.

[Imploding Turtle]

Always worth pointing out inconvenience truths

I could point out that war is now a for-profit trillion-dollar industry and that every American war in my lifetime has been a for-profit war that has killed millions of people.
The slave trade, another capitalist idea, killed millions.
How many wars nowadays aren't about one side wanting to generate profit?

And that's just capitalism. If you want to add all the religious wars and religious terrorism in there which are also right-wing wars and acts of violence, plus of course every WW2 death since it's not as if Nazis were anything other than right-wing extremists. I'm fairly sure we'll find that left-wing extremism and right-wing extremism over time have been responsible for a relatively equal amount of deaths.

But that's not the issue right now. The issue right now is what we define as left- and right-wing extremism. the right wing refers to "far-left" extremists and the "alt-left" when any of us oppose neo-nazis marching through the streets chanting "blood and soil" and think that's the same as when we call those people far-right and alt-right extremists. It's as if the right (or maybe just the anti-intellectual wing of the right) think that anyone who is opposed to far-right extremism is a left-wing extremist.

Far-left extremism is wanting to nationalise the railways. Far-right extremism is driving cars through crowds and wanting to bring back concentration camps. It's somewhat lop-sided view of what it takes to be an extremist.

It's not an accident btw, it's strategy the right have used for decades, because it works on people like you. Accuse your opponents of the things you do and when they point to your crimes it just looks like mud-slinging. It's why every time Trump opens his mouth to accuse his opponents of something it's basically a confession (sometimes called projection. it's not). It's a strategy that got George W. Bush elected for the first time in 2004 when it was implemented by Karl Rove against John Kerry. It's the 21st century version of the Big Lie strategy.

[Falcon]

It would be extreme foolishness to ever make a statement 'left wing / right wing politics is dying / dead'. So long as there is a democracy there will always be a left wing and a right wing. I expect there was Nazis who were on the left of the party and Communists who were on the right - it's all relative.

The more pertinent question is probably 'Has the centre ground shifted to the right forever?' and the answer to that question is something none of us know.

[Somethingfishy]

Labour has leadership in absentia.
Hoping that the Tory government is so poor, they don't have to do anything other than turn up and JC will become PM.

Leadership is about presenting a clear alternative path, with which those disaffected folk can identify. That is when support soars and the Government is shown to be bankrupt of thought and deed and only interested in self preservation.

Corbyn has no concept of leadership, only of sitting tight and waiting for mistakes he can exploit.

UK politics sucks.

Not only that but for every Boris Johnson i raise you Dianne Abbott. A severe lack of competent politicians with any clear vision on both sides. Nobody seriously worth voting for. I could be called a floating voter but nobody calls out to me..or worse still nobody wants to call out to me. A sad state of affairs. In times like this it needs a credible opposition to rip apart the government..we havn't got one.

[Imploding Turtle]

Not only that but for every Boris Johnson i raise you Dianne Abbott. A severe lack of competent politicians with any clear vision on both sides. Nobody seriously worth voting for. I could be called a floating voter but nobody calls out to me..or worse still nobody wants to call out to me. A sad state of affairs. In times like this it needs a credible opposition to rip apart the government..we havn't got one.

There's absolutely no threat of Diane Abbott ever becoming PM.

[Colburn_Claret]

It would be extreme foolishness to ever make a statement 'left wing / right wing politics is dying / dead'. So long as there is a democracy there will always be a left wing and a right wing. I expect there was Nazis who were on the left of the party and Communists who were on the right - it's all relative.

The more pertinent question is probably 'Has the centre ground shifted to the right forever?' and the answer to that question is something none of us know.

I doubt it. Extremism breeds extremism. The further left Labour swing, the further right the Tories will swing, because they have no fear of a left leaning Labour party.
Should JC and Momentum go, and a credible centrist leaning leader takes over, then the Tories will move back towards the centre again. Self preservation demands it.
The Liberals are a wash out, and the SDP had it's day, but a new party of right wing Socialists and left wing Tories is what this country needs. A pipe dream I know.

[Somethingfishy]

There's absolutely no threat of Diane Abbott ever becoming PM.

True but you never know in politics. I'd still be surprised if Boris got the gig. Big personality but i'm not sure he has enough support in his own party after his gaffes. Tories always end up with someone dull and dutiful. That isn't Boris.

[Imploding Turtle]

True but you never know in politics. I'd still be surprised if Boris got the gig. Big personality but i'm not sure he has enough support in his own party after his gaffes. Tories always end up with someone dull and dutiful. That isn't Boris.

I don't think he'll be Tory leader. I think he's making a pitch to be UKIP leader though.

[ecc]

"France had the right idea voting for a centrist party."

The French had the choice of voting for A.N. Other or a fascist.

[Imploding Turtle]

I doubt it. Extremism breeds extremism. The further left Labour swing, the further right the Tories will swing, because they have no fear of a left leaning Labour party.
Should JC and Momentum go, and a credible centrist leaning leader takes over, then the Tories will move back towards the centre again. Self preservation demands it.
The Liberals are a wash out, and the SDP had it's day, but a new party of right wing Socialists and left wing Tories is what this country needs. A pipe dream I know.

You have causality wrong. The Tories and their austerity policies are what made more people realise they were being ripped off, and so pushed them to the left. Not the other way around.

[Somethingfishy]

"France had the right idea voting for a centrist party."

The French had the choice of voting for A.N. Other or a fascist.

Marine Le Pen is just too far right even for the French. If the opposition to Macron had been remotely moderate right wing he would not be president now IMO.
I notice Sweden is heading the same way before their election in September. Current PMs party is facing its lowest polling in its history and an anti-immigration party is leading the way.

[Colburn_Claret]

You have causality wrong. The Tories and their austerity policies are what made more people realise they were being ripped off, and so pushed them to the left. Not the other way around.

The people haven't been pushed to the left. Momentum have pushed the Labour party to the left, because that is their ideology.
The swell, if it can be called that, isn't a surge in populist support, just that as the right and centre of the party move out, the left wingers who have been quiet for so long, move in. It isn't improved support, just a movement of support.
Hopefully when Labour realise they are on a loser and move back to the centre ground, the radical left will depart again, and those disaffected socialists will come back.
If Labour are serious about gaining power, they can't do it by upsetting half their support.

[Somethingfishy]

The people haven't been pushed to the left. Momentum have pushed the Labour party to the left, because that is their ideology.
The swell, if it can be called that, isn't a surge in populist support, just that as the right and centre of the party move out, the left wingers who have been quiet for so long, move in. It isn't improved support, just a movement of support.
Hopefully when Labour realise they are on a loser and move back to the centre ground, the radical left will depart again, and those disaffected socialists will come back.
If Labour are serious about gaining power, they can't do it by upsetting half their support.

The problem is there are many who don't think they are onto a loser. The mismanagement and lunacy of the current government is giving them the hope that they can gain a foothold whereas in reality if they had not been as far left as they are they would surely have won the last election.
The tories were a shambles before the election and their campaign was a shambles yet they still won the most seats and despite Labour making it close it was in reality a complete failure in the circumstances.
The whole lot are a total joke. God help us.

[burnleymik]

The whole lot are a total joke. God help us.

Amen.

[JTClaret]

I'd say the reason is because the majority are sick and tired of being accused as heartless, racist and not having a clue what they are talking about because their opinion doesn't match those of the vocal left-wing.

Sometimes I see it as the left being wrong - not the right being right, let me make that clear - but because don't agree with the lefties I'm told I'm right wing. Have the same conversation with a righty, and generally they take your opinion on board and don't accuse you of being anything. If you have to pick a side when this happens, guess which one you're going to take.

[BennyD]

Why? Because it deserves to, and the more painful it is the better.

[Imploding Turtle]

Why? Because it deserves to, and the more painful it is the better.

What do you think happens to right-wing politics as we know it if there is no left-wing politics as we know it? You end up with even more extreme right-wing politics.

But maybe that's what you want.

[JTClaret]

Maybe the left-wing are sick of being accused of being traitors who want brown people to be allowed to rape your children and to let suicide bombers blow up concerts.

Why is it i'm expected to feel sorry for the right when someone accuses you of being a heartless racist for supporting/allowing heartless or racist ideas to spread among your ranks while your lot go around accusing the left of being terrorist sympathisers, paedophilia enablers, and accuse the leader of the left-wing opposition party of being a "threat to national security"? lol. Someone called you racist? Cry more you little bitch.

See what I mean...?
I actually said I'm not right wing, but you gave this little rant anyway.
Fortunately I'm not unlucky enough to know or associate myself with these 'right-wingers' you described. I only get to see the 'left-wingers' losing their ****. By the way, who on earth said 'threat to national security'? I don't watch the news anymore haha

[RMutt]

If I had to go for one biggest reason, it would be the power of advertising in a world where media bombards you. Almost everyone has been persuaded that to be happy we need more stuff, advertisements encouraging us to always want more. We can’t have more if we give away or share what we have. So tax becomes a dirty word and sharing becomes naive. Asking people to believe that is possible to be happy with less or that there are more important things to consider than their own needs or wants has become much more difficult in a world driven by the commercial imperative. Left wing politics asks for people to believe in ideas beyond themselves, the right encourages people to put themselves first.

[Imploding Turtle]

By the way, who on earth said 'threat to national security'? I don't watch the news anymore haha

David Cameron. The same guy who said that it's wrong to leave people alone if they obey our laws said that Jeremy Corbyn was a threat to national security.

[houseboy]

I'd say the reason is because the majority are sick and tired of being accused as heartless, racist and not having a clue what they are talking about because their opinion doesn't match those of the vocal left-wing.

Sometimes I see it as the left being wrong - not the right being right, let me make that clear - but because don't agree with the lefties I'm told I'm right wing. Have the same conversation with a righty, and generally they take your opinion on board and don't accuse you of being anything. If you have to pick a side when this happens, guess which one you're going to take.

I'm not sure you are right there. Over the years I have had many political discussions/arguments and I have found overwhelmingly that those on the right of centre tend to be the 'name callers' and when faced with facts will often come out with phrases like 'typical leftist lies' and such like. In fact the term 'liar' in my experience comes from the lips of the right more than the left. Of course one shouldn't generalise and there is a great deal of animosity on both sides but if I had a tenner for every time I have been accused of 'spouting leftist rubbish and lies' I would actually be pretty well off.
Look ALL politicians lie, it's what they do, I'm sure there is a degree course in it somewhere or a training manual when you get into the house of commons, so all we can ever do is look at what is going on around us and my views, developed over many years, have very little to do with what I've been told and a great deal to do with what I have experienced. I am a cynic at heart and don't believe much of what I am told. If it occasionally backs up my EXPERIENCE I will have more tendency to believe it.
Sorry to have gone off at a tangent but some on the right seem to think they have a monopoly on truth but that is not the case.
Just as a post script let me just ask a question given what some have written on here:
I am a well educated, intelligent and literate person, I am politically left wing and avidly anti-racist. I am not a flag waving little Englander, in fact I am neither proud nor ashamed to be British, it was just an accident of birth, as is any nationality. I voted for Brexit and couldn't wait to do so when the referendum was announced. I had my reasons for doing so. How does this square with what many on here say about those who voted leave?

[AndrewJB]

Labour has leadership in absentia.
Hoping that the Tory government is so poor, they don't have to do anything other than turn up and JC will become PM.

Leadership is about presenting a clear alternative path, with which those disaffected folk can identify. That is when support soars and the Government is shown to be bankrupt of thought and deed and only interested in self preservation.

Corbyn has no concept of leadership, only of sitting tight and waiting for mistakes he can exploit.

UK politics sucks.

Would you say Blair, Brown, or Milliband presented a clear alternative? I would say the present Labour Party presents a more profound alternative (in my opinion positively) than under previous leadership.

[IanMcL]

Blair undoubtedly led a clear, positive alternative to Thatcher and Major.

He rebuilt schools and hospitals and paid nurses and public servants properly.

Everyone knew his priority was education and gettingc 50% to university and voted accordingly.

Corbyn presented a very radical alternative at the election. However, he has returned to his thinking shell ever since. There is no vision pronounced from the rooftops, for all to latch on to and sweep away the scaremongering rich folk, aka Tories.

[Greenmile]

...I am a well educated, intelligent and literate person, I am politically left wing and avidly anti-racist. I am not a flag waving little Englander, in fact I am neither proud nor ashamed to be British, it was just an accident of birth, as is any nationality. I voted for Brexit and couldn't wait to do so when the referendum was announced. I had my reasons for doing so. How does this square with what many on here say about those who voted leave?

What do many on here say about those who voted leave? Bear in mind that for your question to make much sense they would need to be saying it (whatever it is) about all those who voted leave.

[Imploding Turtle]

What do many on here say about those who voted leave? Bear in mind that for your question to make much sense they would need to be saying it (whatever it is) about all those who voted leave.

Stewart Lee stood on a stage and said it. So ner!

[Damo]

This was an obvious problem with Corbyn and his attempt at being a decent, honest political leader who won't smear and lie about his opponent. He gets eaten alive by opponents for whom the truth doesn't really matter when it comes to influencing public opinion.

Well this is awkward

[bfcjg]

Blair undoubtedly led a clear, positive alternative to Thatcher and Major.

He rebuilt schools and hospitals and paid nurses and public servants properly.

Everyone knew his priority was education and gettingc 50% to university and voted accordingly.

Corbyn presented a very radical alternative at the election. However, he has returned to his thinking shell ever since. There is no vision pronounced from the rooftops, for all to latch on to and sweep away the scaremongering rich folk, aka Tories.

He left us in so much debt due to his build now pay later policies and who gained ? International financiers. He was a charlaton and an American poodle.

[AndrewJB]

Blair undoubtedly led a clear, positive alternative to Thatcher and Major.

He rebuilt schools and hospitals and paid nurses and public servants properly.

Everyone knew his priority was education and gettingc 50% to university and voted accordingly.

Corbyn presented a very radical alternative at the election. However, he has returned to his thinking shell ever since. There is no vision pronounced from the rooftops, for all to latch on to and sweep away the scaremongering rich folk, aka Tories.

There were some good things out of Blair’s time in office and to your points I would add the minimum wage, and human rights legislation; the Iraq War and how he dragged the country into it is a shameful chapter in our history, and continuing on with the Neo liberal economic agenda started by Thatcher allowed us to get caught up in the financial meltdown to a greater degree than many other countries.

You say Labours last manifesto was good, and in terms of policies and commitments nothing has changed. The reason you don’t hear much of Corbyn except ‘bad news’ is the press only report negative things. He says a lot but if you want to find out you have to look it up for yourself. Go see him speak, or follow him on social media.

[Dazzler]

[quote="burnleymik"]It's all the middle-class socialists. The ones who love to virtue signal, whilst having absolutely no idea about the realities on the ground.

'Anywhere..but not in my village'

[IanMcL]

He left us in so much debt due to his build now pay later policies and who gained ? International financiers. He was a charlaton and an American poodle.

Did much wrong but won 4 elections by doing much right.

Tory propaganda may have you believe otherwise, of course. The Tories have never helped anyone other than themselves, at our expense.

Their policy still makes the rich even richer, whilst enslaving the poor. The financial crisis was a gift to them and we paid....and paid....and paid.

[jurek]

There's really nothing to suggest left wing politics is dying a painful death
as assumed in the subjects original question.
There is of course a rise in right wing views which seem very, if not extreme
at times. But that's not just this country but a considerable number of other countries be it in Europe
or further afield.

Given the constant hammering of Jeremy Corbyn by the mainly right wing press
does it not surprise folk to hear that whenever and wherever JC speaks hundreds of people turn up to listen.
The halls/venues are jam packed full. Or that hundreds of thousands of mainly young folk have joined the Labour Party
in the last few years. Or that they increased their vote at the last election. and still have around 35% of the vote/support.

That doesn't suggest a painful death to me.

[Chobulous]

Given the constant hammering of Jeremy Corbyn by the mainly right wing press
does it not surprise folk to hear that whenever and wherever JC speaks hundreds of people turn up to listen.
The halls/venues are jam packed full. Or that hundreds of thousands of mainly young folk have joined the Labour Party
in the last few years. Or that they increased their vote at the last election. and still have around 35% of the vote/support.

That doesn't suggest a painful death to me.

The problem with Corbyn is that he does nothing to counter this "hammering" he keeps getting. He is totally complacent because he lives in his Momentum supported bubble. In all the years that he was a back bench nobody he was able to indulge himself, supporting all and sundry, voting against his own party at every opportunity, and espousing every trendy Islington set cause, because he felt the he was unaccountable and beholden to no-one. He has shared platforms with those connected to known terrorists, and now all of those things are coming back to haunt him. He may well say that he is not an anti-semitist but he has attacked the State of Israel in the past and that in itself has encouraged those among his supporters who hold hold darker views to spread their malignant message. He does nothing to stop or condemn this, instead he encourages all sorts of spurious trumped up charges against those who oppose him, or so it seems. If he is not involved in that he does nothing to counter it.
He really does believe that he is untouchable.

[houseboy]

What do many on here say about those who voted leave? Bear in mind that for your question to make much sense they would need to be saying it (whatever it is) about all those who voted leave.

I have seen various about Brexit voters posted on here:
A. Racist.
B. Lacking in intelligence.
C. Mislead (suggesting some kind of lack of intelligence to make up your own mind).
D. The assumption that the pro-remain vote was somehow a majorly left wing domain.
E. Generally older (guilty on that one point I suppose).
This, of course, is not an exhaustive list but need I go on? As for your statement that for my question to make any sense it would have to be said of ALL Brexit voters that is a nonsense, it wouldn't of course. When making an observation of trends one can only generalise and in general the critics have at various times said all of the above.

[Imploding Turtle]

A. Not all Leave voters are racists, but all racists were Leave voters
B. Ringo
C. Let's give that £350 million to the NHS. We have to leave the EU to control our borders. The EU need us more than we need them. The public have had enough of experts. etc. etc. (when stupid this like this works then it supports point B)
D. What?
E. They were.

[houseboy]

The problem with Corbyn is that he does nothing to counter this "hammering" he keeps getting. He is totally complacent because he lives in his Momentum supported bubble. In all the years that he was a back bench nobody he was able to indulge himself, supporting all and sundry, voting against his own party at every opportunity, and espousing every trendy Islington set cause, because he felt the he was unaccountable and beholden to no-one. He has shared platforms with those connected to known terrorists, and now all of those things are coming back to haunt him. He may well say that he is not an anti-semitist but he has attacked the State of Israel in the past and that in itself has encouraged those among his supporters who hold hold darker views to spread their malignant message. He does nothing to stop or condemn this, instead he encourages all sorts of spurious trumped up charges against those who oppose him, or so it seems. If he is not involved in that he does nothing to counter it.
He really does believe that he is untouchable.

Is it complacency or is it rising above it? I think he has conducted himself admirably during this whole sorry, sad and frankly despicable slandering of the name of an essentially good man. If Corbyn has a fault for a politician I believe it is that maybe he is too honest. If he has been critical of Israel then he is totally right to do so but has anyone EVER heard him say anything anti-Semitic? Criticising Israel and being anti-Semitic are mutually exclusive and the only ones who can't or won't see that are those who support what this awful regime is doing. There seems to be growing evidence that it is actually Israel who are behind all this slandering of Corbyn. I don't know if that is true but if it is it would not in any way surprise me.

[Chobulous]

Is it complacency or is it rising above it? I think he has conducted himself admirably during this whole sorry, sad and frankly despicable slandering of the name of an essentially good man. If Corbyn has a fault for a politician I believe it is that maybe he is too honest. If he has been critical of Israel then he is totally right to do so but has anyone EVER heard him say anything anti-Semitic? Criticising Israel and being anti-Semitic are mutually exclusive and the only ones who can't or won't see that are those who support what this awful regime is doing. There seems to be growing evidence that it is actually Israel who are behind all this slandering of Corbyn. I don't know if that is true but if it is it would not in any way surprise me.

Let's just take this latest revelation. He is photographed laying a wreath at a monument to "Palestinian martyrs". Nothing wrong with that if you believe he was there to honour those killed in Israeli air strikes, except for the fact that the photograph clearly shows him at the site of a monument to the people who kidnapped and murdered Israeli athletes in Munich. You can see the monument right next to him, so unless you believe that the photograph was "Photoshopped" there aren't many explanations.
He was walking past the monument when someone took the photo completely coincidentally
The photograph was staged by the PLO or whatever, for propaganda purposes and Corbyn was an unwitting stooge.
He was there because that was where he wanted to be, probably because it fit into his agenda at the time of being a back bench rebel who supported that sort of thing. Something he could dine out on at the Saturday night Islington set dinner parties.

What is your explanation?

[houseboy]

Let's just take this latest revelation. He is photographed laying a wreath at a monument to "Palestinian martyrs". Nothing wrong with that if you believe he was there to honour those killed in Israeli air strikes, except for the fact that the photograph clearly shows him at the site of a monument to the people who kidnapped and murdered Israeli athletes in Munich. You can see the monument right next to him, so unless you believe that the photograph was "Photoshopped" there aren't many explanations.
He was walking past the monument when someone took the photo completely coincidentally
The photograph was staged by the PLO or whatever, for propaganda purposes and Corbyn was an unwitting stooge.
He was there because that was where he wanted to be, probably because it fit into his agenda at the time of being a back bench rebel who supported that sort of thing. Something he could dine out on at the Saturday night Islington set dinner parties.

What is your explanation?

How far back do people want to go to criticise someone? I used to be a drug taking, rebellious, hard drinking football hooligan with a tendency to lash out first and ask the questions later. I now see how stupid that was and that person 'died' many, many years ago, along with some of the more extreme views I had at the time. If the media wanted I am sure they could 'embarrass' many in the Tory party for views they had in the past, in fact some have been 'outed' for being ex-members of things like the national front. If you have never done anything that with hindsight you may now feel ashamed of or embarrassed by then you have indeed lead a sheltered and or boring life.
As far as that picture goes if he was honouring the death of those murdered by Israel and that happened to be the place where that was taking place what is the problem? Every year we have Remembrance day in this country and rightly so for all those who died in the 2 world wars, and people lay wreaths at various cenotaphs all over the country, but do you really believe that at least a small number of those soldiers we are honouring didn't commit acts that would be considered wrong or even atrocious? Atrocities happen in All conflicts and whether we like it or not there is some truth in the old saying that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Don't forget that in occupied Europe the resistance were seen by us as heroes but to the Germans they were terrorists.
Corbyn has probably changed many of his views over the years but that picture does not condemn him in any way. The only ones who make anything of it now are those who wish to discredit him, and that probably comes as much out of fear as anything from those who do not want him or his party in power and will do absolutely anything to stop it.

[burnleymik]

The halls/venues are jam packed full. Or that hundreds of thousands of mainly young folk have joined the Labour Party
in the last few years. Or that they increased their vote at the last election. and still have around 35% of the vote/support.
.

This is just not true:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/th ... 73141.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Imploding Turtle]

This is just not true:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/th ... 73141.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your link does nothing to support your claim. You do that a lot though, so i'm not surprised.

[quoonbeatz]

This is just not true:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/th ... 73141.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

it is true. young labour membership has increased since corbyn was in charge to around 100,000. for context, the total lib dem membership is about 102,000.

[JTClaret]

I'm not sure you are right there. Over the years I have had many political discussions/arguments and I have found overwhelmingly that those on the right of centre tend to be the 'name callers' and when faced with facts will often come out with phrases like 'typical leftist lies' and such like. In fact the term 'liar' in my experience comes from the lips of the right more than the left. Of course one shouldn't generalise and there is a great deal of animosity on both sides but if I had a tenner for every time I have been accused of 'spouting leftist rubbish and lies' I would actually be pretty well off.

I think it's fair to say the people who are in our lives, in whatever respect, greatly affect our opinions of both sides.
I'm 99% sure my views would be very different if I was hearing the right accusing people of lying and name-calling, but as it happens, it's the other way around.

As mentioned, I've stopped watching the news because I can't be bothered with the constant 'who's worse than who' especially when it's glaringly obvious that both might be wrong, and that what is right for one is wrong for another. So I just judge things on how I see it, and how it affects me, although I'll listen to both sides of the argument with an open-mind. That and the news just states the bleeding obvious - 'Donald Trump didn't start a war, but he could have', 'People don't like politicians, especially when they lie' and 'Bosses consider people's safety'... well done, I'm so grateful I took time to listen to this news.

[Greenmile]

I have seen various about Brexit voters posted on here:
A. Racist.
B. Lacking in intelligence.
C. Mislead (suggesting some kind of lack of intelligence to make up your own mind).
D. The assumption that the pro-remain vote was somehow a majorly left wing domain.
E. Generally older (guilty on that one point I suppose).
This, of course, is not an exhaustive list but need I go on? As for your statement that for my question to make any sense it would have to be said of ALL Brexit voters that is a nonsense, it wouldn't of course. When making an observation of trends one can only generalise and in general the critics have at various times said all of the above.

If people haven’t said these things of all Brexit voters (and presuming they have said them of most Brexit voters) then the simple answer to your original question is that you are an anomaly.

[burnleymik]

it is true. young labour membership has increased since corbyn was in charge to around 100,000. for context, the total lib dem membership is about 102,000.

Jurek stated "hundreds of thousands", so it's not true.

[houseboy]

I think it's fair to say the people who are in our lives, in whatever respect, greatly affect our opinions of both sides.
I'm 99% sure my views would be very different if I was hearing the right accusing people of lying and name-calling, but as it happens, it's the other way around.

As mentioned, I've stopped watching the news because I can't be bothered with the constant 'who's worse than who' especially when it's glaringly obvious that both might be wrong, and that what is right for one is wrong for another. So I just judge things on how I see it, and how it affects me, although I'll listen to both sides of the argument with an open-mind. That and the news just states the bleeding obvious - 'Donald Trump didn't start a war, but he could have', 'People don't like politicians, especially when they lie' and 'Bosses consider people's safety'... well done, I'm so grateful I took time to listen to this news.

I agree with you there mate. I don't watch the news that often now either and unfortunately politics, which I used to be active in and indeed studied at college, now bores me with it's constant reference to personalities and the dreaded 'negative campaigning'. Parties now on the run up to an election, or even if one is muted as possible, no longer concentrate on what they will do and what they stand for but rather just try to make the opposition look like the bogeyman everyone should be scared of.....'if you let Labour in this dreadful thing will happen' or 'if the Tories win we will all be (insert any damn thing you like). Scare tactics abound now (it did even in the referendum on Brexit) and all we want is for someone, anyone, to stand up and say 'look, this is what we are going to do, have a good look at it, here are the facts (probably lies unfortunately) and make up your own mind who you want to govern you for the next 4/5 years'.
I dream of the day when parties stop playing this game of look who is behind you and actually get around to speaking the truth for once. The problem we have is, and it was probably always true to some degree, parties are NOT bothered so much about the country and the state of the economy, they only care about their chances of gaining power and they will now do and say whatever it takes to get hold of or keep it.