Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:55 pm

Disagree with you there, IT. I had a professor in 3rd year economics who would introduce all kinds of ideas in his lectures, and then ask all kinds of rhetorical questions, without ever answering them. In the lat 10 minutes of the lecture, he would then answer his questions. Brilliant!!! It made you think, rather than just answer like Pavlov's dogs. There is no black and white, only varying shades of gray.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:56 pm

ontario claret wrote:Disagree with you there, IT. I had a professor in 3rd year economics who would introduce all kinds of ideas in his lectures, and then ask all kinds of rhetorical questions, without ever answering them. In the lat 10 minutes of the lecture, he would then answer his questions. Brilliant!!! It made you think, rather than just answer like Pavlov's dogs. There is no black and white, only varying shades of gray.

I'm unsure what are you disagreeing with.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:56 pm

burnleymik wrote:This sums it up quite well. It seems to be you either agree with them or you are **insert derogatory label of choice**.
I genuinely believe it was this kind of behaviour that pushed a lot of people towards Brexit/Trump etc.

I agree, people will start to express a view, but then be told to " be quiet " , " shut up ", " you can't say that " and after a while will get fed up and just keep quiet. They stop engaging with the process, keep their views to themselves, lie or mislead pollsters ..... until, in the privacy of the voting booth are finally allowed to have their say ..

This is how you get Trump and Brexit, increasing support for the Front National, AFD etc. and the pollsters & politicians wring their hands and wonder why they didn't see it coming...i's also why the Consevatives, under Boris Johnson with a broad brush " backs to the wall, let's stick together, Dunkirk spirit, let's back Britain ! " campaign would have a fair chance of forming a Government !!

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:57 pm

Again this thread us turning into "all Tories and Brexiteers are idiots and liars"
That's probably the answer to the OP

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:57 pm

The political parties that were created to represent the working class no longer do that. They now largely despise the very people who have been loyal to them.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:58 pm

Damo wrote:Again this thread us turning into "all Tories and Brexiteers are idiots and liars"
That's probably the answer to the OP

See? Every little bit of criticism turns into this exact whine.

gandhisflipflop · Post by **gandhisflipflop** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:59 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:This is an example of an opinion it's perfectly fair to describe a "really ******* stupid": Education is indoctrination.

Call it what you like Turtle. You would be wrong.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:00 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:See? Every little bit of criticism turns into this exact whine.

I'm not opposed to criticism of any ideology providing it's justified.
Unlike you

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:00 pm

Competition is the goal of economics. Perfect competition, which never really exists, is the goal. Why do we only have one set of hydro poles in a competitive marketplace? Because to have competing electrical supply companies would be too costly. So, we have a control board, instead. Inefficient, for sure, but the only real choice.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:04 pm

burnleymik wrote:No. The very fact that they couldn't have civilised debates or discussions because they were immediately labelled, to be shut down, played a huge part. That is just my opinion.

It's impossible to have a reasonable debate with those who refuse to debate in good faith, and it's impossible to expect reasonable debate when Nazi propaganda was being mimicked to drive home a political point. Do you believe with and degree of sincerity that such imagery wouldn't be challenged? You're more than welcome to defend the symbolism, have a right good waffle about semiotics and tell folk they're overreacting, but don't presume you'll enjoy the response. Take a bit of responsibility rather than celebrating retreat.

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:04 pm

I'm disagreeing with your "absolute right" argument, IT. People with an absolute view of things are always wrong. What really works in society is pragmatism. Too much doctrine in anything is bad.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:05 pm

I also think we are so far down the neo-liberal capitalist rabbit hole of huge centralized corporate wealth, home ownership, private debt, pensions etc people vote for the party which keeps the status quo and might rock the financial boat the least or even ask the question if the system is working anymore.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:06 pm

Damo wrote:I'm not opposed to criticism of any ideology providing it's justified.
Unlike you

"Unlike you"

I'm sure you'll have no problem defending that accusation, providing it's justified.
If you refuse then i'll accept that as admission that you're just making an false accusation in place of an actual argument (ie. a smear)

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:08 pm

ontario claret wrote:I'm disagreeing with your "absolute right" argument, IT. People with an absolute view of things are always wrong. What really works in society is pragmatism. Too much doctrine in anything is bad.

I'm still lost. I don't recall making such an argument.

Also "People with an absolute view of things are always wrong" is an absolutist opinion.

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:08 pm

You were probably "indoctrinated" at a top-level school, where you taught through rote. Rote is an obsolete concept. The ability to think for yourself is what is "required".

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:10 pm

Just reading some of the absolute cobblers on this thread answers the original question

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:11 pm

Even the morally and mentally challenged are not "wrong". In a democracy, they are merely expressing what they perceive to be right. It's the attempted effort to deny their right to self-expression which is "wrong".

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:12 pm

CombatClaret wrote:I also think we are so far down the neo-liberal capitalist rabbit hole of huge centralized corporate wealth, home ownership, private debt, pensions etc people vote for the party which keeps the status quo and might rock the financial boat the least or even ask the question if the system is working anymore.

Capitalism and Communism lead to the same thing. Enslaved proles who think they're free. The only difference is who the masters are.

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:19 pm

Because voters are confused by the Tory press and stupid remarks from Corbyn

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:24 pm

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:26 pm

ontario claret wrote:Competition is the goal of economics. Perfect competition, which never really exists, is the goal. Why do we only have one set of hydro poles in a competitive marketplace? Because to have competing electrical supply companies would be too costly. So, we have a control board, instead. Inefficient, for sure, but the only real choice.

Not everything is best left to market forces. To have a working market you need to have abundance in order to give people choice. With things like healthcare, or provision of power, this is just pointlessly inefficient. Mixed economies work best, in addition to economies without extremes of wealth and poverty (which you’ll normally find side by side).

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:30 pm

What is your perfect political system, IT? You might be the smartest person in the entire universe (and maybe you are), but in a democratic system you are only one vote and one voice. Now, get a bunch of people who (mostly) agree with you, form a party, and you have something. But to attack people on every picayune point in such an extreme way is wrong. Voltaire said that I might disagree with what you say, but I don't disagree with your right to say it. Maybe it's just the way you say it. How would you feel if you worked at a job all of your life, followed all of the rules, and then were tossed away like yesterday's garbage? Would you consider voting for Donald Trump?

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:31 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I agree, people will start to express a view, but then be told to " be quiet " , " shut up ", " you can't say that " and after a while will get fed up and just keep quiet. They stop engaging with the process, keep their views to themselves, lie or mislead pollsters ..... until, in the privacy of the voting booth are finally allowed to have their say ..

This is how you get Trump and Brexit, increasing support for the Front National, AFD etc. and the pollsters & politicians wring their hands and wonder why they didn't see it coming...i's also why the Consevatives, under Boris Johnson with a broad brush " backs to the wall, let's stick together, Dunkirk spirit, let's back Britain ! " campaign would have a fair chance of forming a Government !!

This argument, and the post it was in reply to, seem to be predicated on the idea that voting for Trump / Brexit was a bad idea, and if only we’d have engaged the Trump / Brexit voters instead of shouting them down or calling them stupid, we’d have been able to convince them of the error of their ways.

Strange then, that it seems to be an argument that’s only ever used by the Trump / Brexit voters themselves.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:31 pm

ontario claret wrote:What is your perfect political system, IT? You might be the smartest person in the entire universe (and maybe you are), but in a democratic system you are only one vote and one voice. Now, get a bunch of people who (mostly) agree with you, form a party, and you have something. But to attack people on every picayune point in such an extreme way is wrong. Voltaire said that I might disagree with what you say, but I don't disagree with your right to say it. Maybe it's just the way you say it. How would you feel if you worked at a job all of your life, followed all of the rules, and then were tossed away like yesterday's garbage? Would you consider voting for Donald Trump?

What the **** are you talking about? Are you reading someone elses posts and thinking they're mine or something?

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:42 pm

Without a doubt, you're the most gifted person on this site. The ones at the other end (and we all know who they are) can be excused for their behaviour. 99.9% of the time your posts are enlightening and entertaining. It's that 0.1% when you rise to the bait, and try to impose your intellect on others that, how can I say it, you become a source of amusement in the extreme. My only advice (and take it for what it might be worth) is to express your opinions as you do (I always look forward to them), just don't take things so personally. It might be the most difficult thing you ever do in your life.

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:48 pm

And Andrew, you've exposed the essence of politics. It's the distribution of those scarce resources that economists talk about that makes the political process. Do we really want people starving in the streets. With the extreme right, that would be OK. like to think that society has progressed beyond that.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:55 pm

ontario claret wrote:Without a doubt, you're the most gifted person on this site. The ones at the other end (and we all know who they are) can be excused for their behaviour. 99.9% of the time your posts are enlightening and entertaining. It's that 0.1% when you rise to the bait, and try to impose your intellect on others that, how can I say it, you become a source of amusement in the extreme. My only advice (and take it for what it might be worth) is to express your opinions as you do (I always look forward to them), just don't take things so personally. It might be the most difficult thing you ever do in your life.

What the **** are you even on about?
Are you reading turtles posts and thinking they are someone else's or something?

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:12 pm

Lots of ****ing going on here. At first, I thought I was replying to Saxoman, but last time I checked, he hasn't been seen since May. Hope he's OK.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:27 pm

You could argue all politics is dying a painful death,the last 5 UK General Elections have seen turnout below 70%,when the other post-war elections prior to 1997 all achieved turnout higher than that number,even in 1974 when there was 2 elections within 9 months or so people still participated.

The most important current political discourse Brexit only saw a turnout of 72%,despite a vigorous campaign and a drive to engage the electorate,nearly a third of voters stayed away from the polling booths.

Touching briefly on American politics,only just over half of the American public bothered to cast a ballot in 2016,now this may be down to both major parties selecting poor candidates,but just glancing through recent Presidential contests,the last election to break 60% turnout was 1968.

These two nations would consider themselves bastions of democracy,and yet cannot even encourage their citizens to cast a ballot every few years.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:28 pm

Greenmile wrote:This argument, and the post it was in reply to, seem to be predicated on the idea that voting for Trump / Brexit was a bad idea, and if only we’d have engaged the Trump / Brexit voters instead of shouting them down or calling them stupid, we’d have been able to convince them of the error of their ways.

Strange then, that it seems to be an argument that’s only ever used by the Trump / Brexit voters themselves.

Do you not see the point being made? Even if those things were bad ideas, we never got the chance to have those debates properly. It was either you agree with us or you are thick, racist knuckle dragging thugs. That same attitude even comes through on a football forum from certain segments.

Erasmus · Post by **Erasmus** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:44 pm

Just a note, but someone above asked if any country had ever benefited from Corbyn-style socialism. The answer to that of course is Britain. So many of institutions and benefits we take for granted today came from the Attlee government of the late 1940s. The NHS being just one example. Attlee's government was at least as left wing as Corbyn, probably more so, and was most definitely socialist.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:45 pm

burnleymik wrote:Do you not see the point being made? Even if those things were bad ideas, we never got the chance to have those debates properly. It was either you agree with us or you are thick, racist knuckle dragging thugs. That same attitude even comes through on a football forum from certain segments.

I see the point, but if voting for Brexit wasn’t a stupid thing to do, then presumably it wouldn’t be possible to persuade people out of it by engaging them and debating properly, as the debate would just reinforce their opinion, so where’s the harm in failing to engage? If it was a stupid thing to vote for, would anyone still knowingly do so just because someone called them a nasty name?

Of course, as ever, I see far more complaints that “they’re all calling us racist!” than instances of people being called racist.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:46 pm

burnleymik wrote:Do you not see the point being made? Even if those things were bad ideas, we never got the chance to have those debates properly. It was either you agree with us or you are thick, racist knuckle dragging thugs.

No. It's just that people like you *think* that when you're being disagreed with it's the same as being called "thick, racist, knuckle-dragging thugs".

Someone will express an obviously racist opinion. Someone else will say "if that's your opinion then you're racist". The racist will scream "Oh my god why do you call everyone who disagrees with you a racist". Rinse and repeat until it becomes a meme.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:48 pm

ontario claret wrote:Lots of ****ing going on here. At first, I thought I was replying to Saxoman, but last time I checked, he hasn't been seen since May. Hope he's OK.

He’s calling himself likeavydra nowadays.

Somethingfishy · Post by **Somethingfishy** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:52 pm

Left wing politics will always be around where there is right wing politics...ying and yang..they are needed to balance each other out. Like a see-saw. Problem is one is pushing wildly and the other is pushing wildly back..it is getting to be a rough ride. In other words the extremes of both sides are showing themselves and it is not healthy. One side will always resist the other..so if the right wing gets more extreme..the left will be heard as an anti-voice. They get louder the right gets empowered and louder..and so the cycle continues. We see a microcosm of it on this very messageboard!

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:02 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:Left wing politics will always be around where there is right wing politics...ying and yang..they are needed to balance each other out. Like a see-saw. Problem is one is pushing wildly and the other is pushing wildly back..it is getting to be a rough ride. In other words the extremes of both sides are showing themselves and it is not healthy. One side will always resist the other..so if the right wing gets more extreme..the left will be heard as an anti-voice. They get louder the right gets empowered and louder..and so the cycle continues. We see a microcosm of it on this very messageboard!

Where's this lefty extremism though? I can see plenty of right-wing extremism (it controls the vast majority of nuclear weapons) but where's the left-wing extremism? Black Bloc anarchists? They've always been a thing but have only been considered left-wing recently because it's convenient as a counter argument against driving cars through crowds and shooting MPs.

Right wing extremists blow up buildings and murder gay and black people for being gay and black. How often do lefties kill people because they aren't like them?

This false equivalence is bullshit.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:16 pm

Greenmile wrote:I see the point, but if voting for Brexit wasn’t a stupid thing to do, then presumably it wouldn’t be possible to persuade people out of it by engaging them and debating properly, as the debate would just reinforce their opinion, so where’s the harm in failing to engage? If it was a stupid thing to vote for, would anyone still knowingly do so just because someone called them a nasty name?

You are not seeing the wood for the trees, deliberately I suspect.

Greenmile wrote:Of course, as ever, I see far more complaints that “they’re all calling us racist!” than instances of people being called racist.

Just look through these types of threads, especially the food shortages thread and the other Brexit threads. You will see Brexit voters implied as racists quite a number of times and that is just on here.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:19 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:Left wing politics will always be around where there is right wing politics...ying and yang..they are needed to balance each other out. Like a see-saw. Problem is one is pushing wildly and the other is pushing wildly back..it is getting to be a rough ride. In other words the extremes of both sides are showing themselves and it is not healthy. One side will always resist the other..so if the right wing gets more extreme..the left will be heard as an anti-voice. They get louder the right gets empowered and louder..and so the cycle continues. We see a microcosm of it on this very messageboard!

This is true, the pendulum effect is happening all across the Western world right now. As I see it, the far left, with their divisive identity politics are fuelling the rise of the far right, neither of which should be tolerated, but are just as bad as each other.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:21 pm

burnleymik wrote:You are not seeing the wood for the trees, deliberately I suspect.

I honestly think you’re not understanding the point I’m trying to make, but I can’t put it any more simply than I have

burnleymik wrote:YJust look through these types of threads, especially the food shortages thread and the other Brexit threads. You will see Brexit voters implied as racists quite a number of times and that is just on here.

I read through these threads on here all the time, and I stand by my assertion that you see people complaining about being called racist far more often than you see any poster being called racist. I note you’ve downgraded to “implied” already, which suggests to me that you know I’m right on this point.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:29 pm

QUESTION - Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

ANSWER - Everywhere it's been tried, eventually, they've always run out of someone else's money.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:30 pm

Greenmile wrote: ... you see people complaining about being called racist far more often than you see any poster being called racist. I note you’ve downgraded to “implied” already, which suggests to me that you know I’m right on this point.

It makes me laugh so much when i read some idiot complaining about being called a racist either when they haven't, or when they've said something quite clearly racist.
One example: they'll complain about how white people are becoming a minority then turn around and be all shocked and upset that someone would dare suggest that they were a racist.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:33 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:QUESTION - Why is left wing politics dying a painful death...?

ANSWER - Everywhere it's been tried, eventually, they've always run out of someone else's money.

Whose money? I think you'll find that money belongs to all of us.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:33 pm

Greenmile wrote:I honestly think you’re not understanding the point I’m trying to make, but I can’t put it any more simply than I have

I see the point you are making, but it's by completely ignoring the point we were making.

I read through these threads on here all the time, and I stand by my assertion that you see people complaining about being called racist far more often than you see any poster being called racist. I note you’ve downgraded to “implied” already, which suggests to me that you know I’m right on this point.

Implied was referred to on this board. We have been called racists directly by people including Vince Cable. I could point you to thousands of posts on social media with those accusations, same in national newspapers, constantly trying to imply brexit voters have increased racism and xenophobia in the UK. There are plenty of examples, we have heard it for the last 2 years, yet you seem to think no one actually says it?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:34 pm

burnleymik wrote:I see the point you are making, but it's by completely ignoring the point we were making.

Implied was referred to on this board. We have been called racists directly by people including Vince Cable. I could point you to thousands of posts on social media with those accusations, same in national newspapers, constantly trying to imply brexit voters have increased racism and xenophobia in the UK. There are plenty of examples, we have heard it for the last 2 years, yet you seem to think no one actually says it?

Vince Cable called you racist? Got a source?
(watch how when he provides a source it disproves his claim)

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:37 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Whose money? I think you'll find that money belongs to all of us.

For once, you're correct.

It doesn't stop them running out of it....

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:40 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:For once, you're correct.

It doesn't stop them running out of it....

It was right-wing ideas that crashed the economy 10 years ago., which is why we still have no money now; because right wing governments implement austerity while giving our money to people who already have plenty.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:57 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It was right-wing ideas that crashed the economy 10 years ago., which is why we still have no money now; because right wing governments implement austerity while giving our money to people who already have plenty.

Who said anything about 10 years ago!?

Note to self - do not engage with idiots as they only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Let me leave you with something so basic, that you can discuss it with your play mates in the bunker creche tomorrow morning.

If socialism came to the desert, sooner or later they'd run out of sand.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:02 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Where's this lefty extremism though ? How often do lefties kill people because they aren't like them?

It's estimated to be between 35,000,000 and 140,000,000 times in the last 100 years ....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_kill ... st_regimes

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:29 am

Around and around and around it goes. Reminds me of an old episode of Star Trek. No, not the one where the stupid people have their own starship, but it could.

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:31 am

I plan on coming back to this argument on the day when the Sun runs out of fuel. I'm sure that it will be still ongoing.