Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

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AlargeClaret
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Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby AlargeClaret » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:01 am

Reading the board today,it resembles what you'd expect from the likes of Brighton/Leicester/Arsenal or Boro or any other deluded sets of fans.But from Burnley...?

Feels very much like the happy clapper/premier league obsessives mixed with the full time moaners have literally sh1t their beds after 1 home defeat.
They moan and whinge about "hoofball" "bad transfer window" "terrible bench" "we shouldn't be in europe" etc etc Are some even aware that we're not a "super club" with a rich chinese sugar daddy? We're by en large an ageing team of bargain basement buys and journeymen who under Dyhes remarkable stewardship have been moulded into superb unit far surpassing the individual skill of any stand alone player. We've competed very succesfully in the strongest leauge in the world and gone toe to toe with some of the biggest club sides in the world and here we are in Europe riding the crest of a massive wave,yet STILL they moan after ONE defeat!

Could i kindly suggest the aforementioned moaners Shut the f*** up,get a grip,buckle up and enjoy the ride
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Woodleyclaret
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Woodleyclaret » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:06 am

Good post I totally agree.
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby whentheballmoves » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:07 am

I think last season has warped people's expectations somewhat. A mid or lower table finish this season wouldn't be a bad thing. We need to ensure survival and, hopefully, have a decent cup run in one of the three we are involved in. Besides, we rarely do well in our 1st PL home game! A decent result at Fulham is the next target. Hopefully, we can get our missing players back to fitness and see how we do then. Missing two of our most creative midfielders isn't helping...

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby ten bellies » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:09 am

AlargeClaret wrote:Reading the board today,it resembles what you'd expect from the likes of Brighton/Leicester/Arsenal or Boro or any other deluded sets of fans.But from Burnley...?

Feels very much like the happy clapper/premier league obsessives mixed with the full time moaners have literally sh1t their beds after 1 home defeat.
They moan and whinge about "hoofball" "bad transfer window" "terrible bench" "we shouldn't be in europe" etc etc Are some even aware that we're not a "super club" with a rich chinese sugar daddy? We're by en large an ageing team of bargain basement buys and journeymen who under Dyhes remarkable stewardship have been moulded into superb unit far surpassing the individual skill of any stand alone player. We've competed very succesfully in the strongest leauge in the world and gone toe to toe with some of the biggest club sides in the world and here we are in Europe riding the crest of a massive wave,yet STILL they moan after ONE defeat!

Could i kindly suggest the aforementioned moaners Shut the f*** up,get a grip,buckle up and enjoy the ride

Snowflakes. Not happy unless they're whining.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby claretspice » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:12 am

Completely agree regarding yesterday's performance. It was fine. There were some very good individual performances and as Dyche said we were really undone by some individual errors. There has been a massive overreaction to it.

That said, I still think the transfer window was a disappointment and we left ourselves short, although im not sure it would have altered the outcome yesterday.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby tim_noone » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:33 am

Oh........if you'd have sat near me yesterday! Well said.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:39 am

Its the usual people with the usual drivel to be fair.

No one is claiming that the 2nd half was anything other than appalling (it was) but the first half was more than fine.

Hendrick deserves a lot of praise in particular, but is he getting it from those who routinely slag him off?

Not a chance.
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Murger » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:42 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its the usual people with the usual drivel to be fair.

No one is claiming that the 2nd half was anything other than appalling (it was) but the first half was more than fine.

Hendrick deserves a lot of praise in particular, but is he getting it from those who routinely slag him off?

Not a chance.


I don't rate Hendrick 1 bit, but he was clearly our best player yesterday.
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Wile E Coyote
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Wile E Coyote » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:44 am

AlargeClaret wrote:Reading the board today,it resembles what you'd expect from the likes of Brighton/Leicester/Arsenal or Boro or any other deluded sets of fans.But from Burnley...?

Feels very much like the happy clapper/premier league obsessives mixed with the full time moaners have literally sh1t their beds after 1 home defeat.
They moan and whinge about "hoofball" "bad transfer window" "terrible bench" "we shouldn't be in europe" etc etc Are some even aware that we're not a "super club" with a rich chinese sugar daddy? We're by en large an ageing team of bargain basement buys and journeymen who under Dyhes remarkable stewardship have been moulded into superb unit far surpassing the individual skill of any stand alone player. We've competed very succesfully in the strongest leauge in the world and gone toe to toe with some of the biggest club sides in the world and here we are in Europe riding the crest of a massive wave,yet STILL they moan after ONE defeat!

Could i kindly suggest the aforementioned moaners Shut the f*** up,get a grip,buckle up and enjoy the ride


all the above is pigswill, Burnley fans are just like all others, we follow our teams fortunes good or bad and comment on them.
Part of being a supporter is having an opinion. I havent met a fan who isn't critical occasionally. Given this is a fans messageboard, it should be obvious that one would find views on all manner of things connected with Burnley football club.
your last line suggesting crudely that we "shut the **** up, is indicative of someone who has no class or manners.
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby piston broke » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:45 am

Thank you, alargeclaret, for putting my thoughts into words. There are clearly a few of the regulars who desperately need to grow a couple of new ones.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:46 am

Fair enough

But you say "You don't rate him one bit", which devalues your praise AND highlights the problem.

There isn't one player in our team who I don't rate, as they all are good to very good premier league footballers, and have proved it over time.

Watford were very good second half yesterday, taking advantage of our sloppiness, and we reacted nothing at all like we would do normally.

I'd be worried if that was the norm, but we know it isn't and there is absolutely no reason to panic. Certainly no need for some of the threads and replies we've had since the match.
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Jakubs Tash » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:48 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its the usual people with the usual drivel to be fair.

No one is claiming that the 2nd half was anything other than appalling (it was) but the first half was more than fine.

Hendrick deserves a lot of praise in particular, but is he getting it from those who routinely slag him off?

Not a chance.

Hendrick has been one of our best players in both league games so far. He was beyond unlucky to be hooked yesterday! Might have been better leaving him on to play wide and take Lennon off. It's really the wide areas and lack of depth there that is currently hurting us the most imo.
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby tim_noone » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:04 am

Wile E Coyote wrote:all the above is pigswill, Burnley fans are just like all others, we follow our teams fortunes good or bad and comment on them.
Part of being a supporter is having an opinion. I havent met a fan who isn't critical occasionally. Given this is a fans messageboard, it should be obvious that one would find views on all manner of things connected with Burnley football club.
your last line suggesting crudely that we "shut the **** up, is indicative of someone who has no class or manners.

Allarges post perfectly summed up. In particular his last paragraph !
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby agreenwood » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:18 am

I like the hysterical overreactions to the non-existent hysterical overreactions myself.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Rammy1968 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:26 am

Hendrick has played well this season so far and I thought he was unlucky to be taken off, when Lennon and JBG were both poor yet again. Can't complain about the first half apart from the first 5 mins. But the second half was a worry. Just hope its a one off and the players can react on Sunday. I for one think the Euro games are a big distraction not only for the players but also the fans. We have a role to play and yesterday I thought we were as poor as the team were in the second half.
Our strikers need to start picking some form up, we created enough opportunities both yesterday and last Sunday at Southampton for us to win both games.
UTC

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Notsosuperstevedavis » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:31 am

'Just a bad day at the office'

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Hibsclaret » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:56 am

PANIC.........

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Millertime v1.7 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:58 am

Meltdowns and hysterics? Lads, if you had rumpus as part of your support you'd know all about such character attributes. He got so bad he was shunned from every afc forum in existence. Now him and tup walk the earth in limbo with Morag by their side.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby LoveCurryPies » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:03 am

Some fans need to grow some b@llocks!
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Guich » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:10 am

Wile E Coyote wrote:all the above is pigswill, Burnley fans are just like all others.


Wrong.

As the OP brilliantly put it we are nothing like BHA, Arsenal etc

But success brings a new set of entitled 'fans' who have not been moulded by 30 years of triumph, near disaster and everything in between.

Thankfully they are the minority, albeit loud and rather pathetic.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby tim_noone » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:22 am

They really are loud and pathetic ...and truly embarrassing!

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby BOYSIE31 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:25 am

AlargeClaret wrote:Reading the board today,it resembles what you'd expect from the likes of Brighton/Leicester/Arsenal or Boro or any other deluded sets of fans.But from Burnley...?

Feels very much like the happy clapper/premier league obsessives mixed with the full time moaners have literally sh1t their beds after 1 home defeat.
They moan and whinge about "hoofball" "bad transfer window" "terrible bench" "we shouldn't be in europe" etc etc Are some even aware that we're not a "super club" with a rich chinese sugar daddy? We're by en large an ageing team of bargain basement buys and journeymen who under Dyhes remarkable stewardship have been moulded into superb unit far surpassing the individual skill of any stand alone player. We've competed very succesfully in the strongest leauge in the world and gone toe to toe with some of the biggest club sides in the world and here we are in Europe riding the crest of a massive wave,yet STILL they moan after ONE defeat!

Could i kindly suggest the aforementioned moaners Shut the f*** up,get a grip,buckle up and enjoy the ride


Not really we had a **** poor transfer window that is all - now we have NO options from the bench until some players might return to fitness

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Silkyskills1 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:48 am

At 1-3 down yesterday there was still a lot of time to try and get back into the game but we have nothing different,no spark,to bring on to try and affect the game. We had to revert to type and those brought on received as little service as those they replaced. We await the return of sidelined players but we don't know when unfortunately.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby piston broke » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:54 am

They weren't that great yesterday as most pundits seem to be making out. They just scored their two second half goals at the perfect time for them. They then worked their socks of to protect their lead and tried to hit us on the break.
A perfect away performance and good luck to them, these things happen in sport. We've won enough matches we didn't earn. Live with it and move on.
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Quicknick » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:56 am

Good OP. We will bounce back. We are a good side.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby quoonbeatz » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:58 am

twitter was even dafter than on here.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Devils_Advocate » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:15 pm

Guich wrote:Wrong.

As the OP brilliantly put it we are nothing like BHA, Arsenal etc

But success brings a new set of entitled 'fans' who have not been moulded by 30 years of triumph, near disaster and everything in between.

Thankfully they are the minority, albeit loud and rather pathetic.

What a load of tosh. Football fans are the same at all clubs up and down the country and the deluded ones are those pious fans on here who think our club and fans are something special and different to everyone else. You're like first time mums who think everything their new baby does is unique and special when in reality they eat, sleep, sh*t and cry just like every other baby.

So what if some people want to have a moan and I agree some go way over the top but they are no more OTT than the hysterical reaction of fans like the OP and you who cant cope with any criticism and negativity and make as much of a storm in a teacup about them whinging as they do actually whinging

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Ric_C » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:19 pm

While I agree our transfer window was average at best, we can't really do anything about that now until Jan.

I remember Dyche saying about re-aligning expectations when he first came in. I feel that we are at that stage now.

This isn't a defeatist attitude, but a realistic one. I felt at times on Sunday the crowd were just waiting for us to pickup the 3 points and a routine win. There are NO easy games at this level, and we need to be up for it as a collective. Sunday felt like a championship game, where was the Premier league buzz?

Also being out-sung by Watford was quite frankly embarrassing.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Shore claret » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:19 pm

Knew you'd pop up with your usual drivel
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby claretspice » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:24 pm

Silkyskills1 wrote:At 1-3 down yesterday there was still a lot of time to try and get back into the game but we have nothing different,no spark,to bring on to try and affect the game. We had to revert to type and those brought on received as little service as those they replaced. We await the return of sidelined players but we don't know when unfortunately.


I'm not convinced it would have made a great deal of difference. I can't recall a Dyche team coming back from 2 goals down that often (in fairness, it hasn't been required that often) but once Watford had their lead and could sit deep, contain us with 2 banks of 4 and hit us on the counter-attack, they set us a problem we've never been good at solving. That wasn't a unique problem on Saturday, its a recurring feature of this team - but that's the flip side of being a team built on resilience and being hard to beat first and foremost. Only the very best are brilliant defensively, and also have the creativity to open up with impunity decent Premier League defences which are focussed on defence first and foremost.

On a day when we don't defend badly, we take at least a point on Saturday - we did regularly last season when we played every bit as badly as Saturday, overall (we were worse at Watford last season and won, and we were worse at home to Leicester when we also won). unfortunately, we're not good enough in attack to sustain leaking 2 pretty poor goal and one gifted by a calamitous error. That's life, unfortunately.
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Guich » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:37 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:What a load of tosh. Football fans are the same at all clubs up and down the country and the deluded ones are those pious fans on here who think our club and fans are something special and different to everyone else. You're like first time mums who think everything their new baby does is unique and special when in reality they eat, sleep, sh*t and cry just like every other baby.

So what if some people want to have a moan and I agree some go way over the top but they are no more OTT than the hysterical reaction of fans like the OP and you who cant cope with any criticism and negativity and make as much of a storm in a teacup about them whinging as they do actually whinging


Really?

So Halifax Town fans are the same as Manyoo fans?
Newcastle fans the same as Bournemouth?
And, of course we are the same as Blackburn.

Okay then. :?

Of course many fans across clubs are similar but some have more nobs than others. the problem sees to be that our nob percentage is on the increase, and that will always be a bi-product of success.

And we can cope with criticism of our club. It's the hysteria and, worse, the fads of unfairly picking on individual players that rankle.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby ClaretAL » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:44 pm

There is an absolute mountain of tosh posted after a loss on here. Yes no win in 7 prem games, but I think it's fair to say we were on the beach for the last 3. This season will kick off and the points will start rolling in, the 2 x first half a this season we have looked good, we just need to keep that in to the second half.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby joey13 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:47 pm

Why not just ban all the so called moaners or better still don’t read the messageboard, you do have a choice

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby joey13 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:50 pm

Notsosuperstevedavis wrote:'Just a bad day at the office'

Is this the recruitment teams office , if it is then it’s more than just the one bad day

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Pstotto » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:58 pm

Not as bad as losing 2-1 at home to Orient in 72/73. I felt the crisis was so bad that the government and army should intervene. I was a Fascist at 10 and I still am! :D

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Wile E Coyote
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Wile E Coyote » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:00 pm

What an excrutiatingly sycophantic bunch you lot are, that is mostly grovelling agreement not to voice an opinion. Barely any of you are capable of thinking for yourself.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Pstotto » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:10 pm

Not me, coyote.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby martin_p » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:56 pm

It’s worth remembering we’ve lost our first home Premier League match every season we’ve been in it, except nine years ago when we beat Man Utd. None of those results defined our season.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby cold claret » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:06 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:Reading the board today,it resembles what you'd expect from the likes of Brighton/Leicester/Arsenal or Boro or any other deluded sets of fans.But from Burnley...?

Feels very much like the happy clapper/premier league obsessives mixed with the full time moaners have literally sh1t their beds after 1 home defeat.
They moan and whinge about "hoofball" "bad transfer window" "terrible bench" "we shouldn't be in europe" etc etc Are some even aware that we're not a "super club" with a rich chinese sugar daddy? We're by en large an ageing team of bargain basement buys and journeymen who under Dyhes remarkable stewardship have been moulded into superb unit far surpassing the individual skill of any stand alone player. We've competed very succesfully in the strongest leauge in the world and gone toe to toe with some of the biggest club sides in the world and here we are in Europe riding the crest of a massive wave,yet STILL they moan after ONE defeat!

Could i kindly suggest the aforementioned moaners Shut the f*** up,get a grip,buckle up and enjoy the ride


Well said.I agree 100%

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby martin_p » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:06 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:What an excrutiatingly sycophantic bunch you lot are, that is mostly grovelling agreement not to voice an opinion. Barely any of you are capable of thinking for yourself.


Maybe people are thinking results this early in the season aren’t necessarily an indicator of what’s to come. The 2nd half was bad, but the first half wasn’t. Doesn’t really mean much.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Culmclaret » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:17 pm

Many fans do not see past the last game nor do they acknowledge that the other team might be quite good/trying just as hard to win. We edged a lot of games last year on the fine margins principle and yesterday was just an example of not being on the right side of the margin. We’ll dust ourselves down and go again next time.

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Colburn_Claret
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Colburn_Claret » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:17 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:Not really we had a **** poor transfer window that is all - now we have NO options from the bench until some players might return to fitness

We didn't have a **** poor window. Gibson is an excellent signing, far better than Mawson would have been and a bargain to boot.
Vydra is just what we needed a proper no 10, how good he will turn out to be we will find out in the coming months.
Hart at 3.5 million is a steal, and with our GK situation badly needed.
No we didn't get another winger, but that doesn't make it a **** poor window, your post is exactly the sort of over reaction that the OP eluded to. I was saying to my son at kick off, how strong our bench was on Saturday, probably the best I've ever known.
With a bit of luck we could have won on Saturday. A second goal in that first half when we created the chances. Hughes getting a red he deserved. These things change games and sadly we fell the wrong side of it, but it wasn't anything to panic about.
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby 2 Bee Holed » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:27 pm

Can you imagine some of our posters getting out of their trenches and 'going over the top'?
Can you imagine some of them standing unarmed in front of the tanks?
Stiffen up, you've gone soft I tell ya. You'd have had a nervous breakdown in 1987!


On a slightly separate note, we need a team of warriors on Thursday, Barnes for one!

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby willsclarets » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:30 pm

Why do we have to have a post like this, every time there is any kind of criticism of our performance or the club. When you've watched that second half, you are bound to get people questioning the players we have available and the performances of those who played. By all means, disagree and say why you do so. I for instance, also think that Hendrick was one of our best players on Sunday. But we were very poor in the second half, and we lacked options from the bench. It's justifiable to be critical of both. Just as you would in the pub after a defeat, people will moan. And you'll have a more positive person on the bar stool next to you saying why things are all rosey. Do some people go a bit over the top? Probably, but It's part of being a football fan, so stop being so righteous or feel you have the right to say "shut the fu*k up" on a football FORUM because some people are being a bit negative. To me the title of the thread applies as much if not more to your own post.
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby tim_noone » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:03 pm

willsclarets wrote:Why do we have to have a post like this, every time there is any kind of criticism of our performance or the club. When you've watched that second half, you are bound to get people questioning the players we have available and the performances of those who played. By all means, disagree and say why you do so. I for instance, also think that Hendrick was one of our best players on Sunday. But we were very poor in the second half, and we lacked options from the bench. It's justifiable to be critical of both. Just as you would in the pub after a defeat, people will moan. And you'll have a more positive person on the bar stool next to you saying why things are all rosey. Do some people go a bit over the top? Probably, but It's part of being a football fan, so stop being so righteous or feel you have the right to say "shut the fu*k up" on a football FORUM because some people are being a bit negative. To me the title of the thread applies as much if not more to your own post.

I'm in the everything's Rosy camp if that's ok with you. :D

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby willsclarets » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:04 pm

Perfectly!!

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Wile E Coyote » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:05 pm

Ok, so can we assume the OP and his ever smiling likers, NEVER post anything negative about this football club on here ?
Presumably None of them ever have previously either, or the accord would be meaningless and false surely.

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Lord Beamish
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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby Lord Beamish » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:11 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:Ok, so can we assume the OP and his ever smiling likers, NEVER post anything negative about this football club on here ?
Presumably None of them ever have previously either, or the accord would be meaningless and false surely.

It’s times like this when I miss you as Ablue.

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby tim_noone » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:13 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:Ok, so can we assume the OP and his ever smiling likers, NEVER post anything negative about this football club on here ?
Presumably None of them ever have previously either, or the accord would be meaningless and false surely.

Pigs wile E coyote :D

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Re: Hysterical Overeactions and meltdowns to a defeat

Postby martin_p » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:14 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:Ok, so can we assume the OP and his ever smiling likers, NEVER post anything negative about this football club on here ?
Presumably None of them ever have previously either, or the accord would be meaningless and false surely.


Pretty much everyone has said we were awful in the second half. But talk of awful transfer windows, needing to get knocked out of Europe, etc are very premature.


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