Appropriation of Jamaica

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:03 am

Labour MP complaining about Jamie Oliver naming a recipe Jerk.

All the problems this country has to deal with and this idiot comes up with this.
Dawn Butler personifies all that is wrong with the Labour party, and they make her culture secretary.
One gob shouts we are a multi cultural society, the second gob says don't embrace our culture.
Jamie Oliver politely told her his honourable intentions. He should have told her to **** off.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:10 am

he should have chanted "su su suicide" to really scare her off

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:12 am

She should be happy to have a recipe named after her.

Likeavydra · Post by **Likeavydra** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:13 am

Everyone's angry about something these days.

tybfc · Post by **tybfc** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:13 am

I get where you are coming from but he should have got his recipe remotely right.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:18 am

Hope no-one tells her about curry or pizza.

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:52 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:Labour MP complaining about Jamie Oliver naming a recipe Jerk.

All the problems this country has to deal with and this idiot comes up with this.
Dawn Butler personifies all that is wrong with the Labour party, and they make her culture secretary.
One gob shouts we are a multi cultural society, the second gob says don't embrace our culture.
Jamie Oliver politely told her his honourable intentions. He should have told her to **** off.

I think you will find that the point she was making was not that the fat ponce was using a traditional Jamaican seasoning, but that he was using the name of a traditional Jamaican seasoning to sell a product that bore no resemblance to the said seasoning. In essence (no pun intended) he was appropriating a Jamaican tradition to sell rubbish.

CharlieinNewMexico · Post by **CharlieinNewMexico** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:58 am

Chobulous wrote:I think you will find that the point she was making was not that the fat ponce was using a traditional Jamaican seasoning, but that he was using the name of a traditional Jamaican seasoning to sell a product that bore no resemblance to the said seasoning. In essence (no pun intended) he was appropriating a Jamaican tradition to sell rubbish.

I guess I'm going to get ripped for replacing the lamb with minced beef and still calling it shepherds pie then

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:09 am

CharlieinNewMexico wrote:I guess I'm going to get ripped for replacing the lamb with minced beef and still calling it shepherds pie then

I think you have missed the point there. If you are going to use the name of a traditional seasoning to sell a product then at least try to ensure that it contains some of the correct ingredients.

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:40 am

CharlieinNewMexico wrote:I guess I'm going to get ripped for replacing the lamb with minced beef and still calling it shepherds pie then

Wouldn't that be a Cottage Pie? It would be more like serving mince and onion and calling it Bolagnase.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:05 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:Labour MP complaining about Jamie Oliver naming a recipe Jerk.

All the problems this country has to deal with and this idiot comes up with this.
Dawn Butler personifies all that is wrong with the Labour party, and they make her culture secretary.
One gob shouts we are a multi cultural society, the second gob says don't embrace our culture.
Jamie Oliver politely told her his honourable intentions. He should have told her to **** off.

All the problems and important news stories this country has to deal with and this idiot decides to take the effort to write a post and comment on this one

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:18 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:All the problems and important news stories this country has to deal with and this idiot decides to take the effort to write a post and comment on this one

And you took time out to quote him!

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:20 am

Butler basically correct here.
If Jamie Oliver started marketing something as a Traditional Steak and Ale Pie, and it had no Ale in it, then there would be justifiable criticism.
This (as I understand it) is the point.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:37 am

The problem I have with Butler is that she takes the whole complaint too far. It's perfectly fair to say that Oliver's recipe is rubbish and nothing like Jamaican jerk cooking; but bringing in the "cultural appropriation" thing is escalating it to a level it doesn't deserve.

There is surely nothing wrong in white people trying to imitate the best that black people have done. That is what Oliver has done. The fact that he has done it badly does not mean it should not have been done at all.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:38 am

[edit - duplicate post]

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:05 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:And you took time out to quote him!

mmm what to post next as this could go on forever (a bit like most of your rambling debates)

1-0, 1-0, 1-0, 1-0

upanatem · Post by **upanatem** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:15 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:All the problems and important news stories this country has to deal with and this idiot decides to take the effort to write a post and comment on this one

DA, I appreciate the point you are making, but why the need to call the OP an 'idiot'? We each have entirely different views of the world, and because someone else's view is different to yours, does that render the person an 'idiot'?

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:20 am

Chobulous wrote:I think you will find that the point she was making was not that the fat ponce was using a traditional Jamaican seasoning, but that he was using the name of a traditional Jamaican seasoning to sell a product that bore no resemblance to the said seasoning. In essence (no pun intended) he was appropriating a Jamaican tradition to sell rubbish.

I think you will find that she was making a mountain out of fresh air.
I heard a quote many years ago on a kids film that still runs true, 'If you look for the bad in people, you will surely find it'. She comes across as a 'typical' left winger looking for slights were there isn't any. If you can take offence at something as trivial as that, then imo you aren't fit for office. We have enough real problems without going out of our way to look for some more.
It doesn't bother me that he calls it jerk. I'd be amazed if it bothers you that he calls it jerk, and I'd be amazed if it bothered 2% of the Jamaicans in this country. So why the hell bring it into the media. The only people who give a toss are the left wing morons she belongs to.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:26 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:mmm what to post next as this could go on forever (a bit like most of your rambling debates) 1-0, 1-0, 1-0, 1-0

The difference is, YOU called the OP an idiot for "deciding to take the effort to write a post and comment on this"

I simply pointed out the irony that such an "idiotic" post would make you feel compelled to take the effort to write a post and comment his!

I was very careful NOT call you an idiot. So I didn't contradict myself by posting.

1.0 ?!

You were never in the game

0.0 and you f****** it up
0.0 and you f****** it up

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:28 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:I think you will find that she was making a mountain out of fresh air.
I heard a quote many years ago on a kids film that still runs true, 'If you look for the bad in people, you will surely find it'. She comes across as a 'typical' left winger looking for slights were there isn't any. If you can take offence at something as trivial as that, then imo you aren't fit for office. We have enough real problems without going out of our way to look for some more.
It doesn't bother me that he calls it jerk. I'd be amazed if it bothers you that he calls it jerk, and I'd be amazed if it bothered 2% of the Jamaicans in this country. So why the hell bring it into the media. The only people who give a toss are the left wing morons she belongs to.

You're right, there's plenty more that Jamie Oliver does that bothers me so this issue to me is the bottom of the list, I was merely expressing an opinion as to why this person may have reacted as she did.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:28 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:All the problems and important news stories this country has to deal with and this idiot decides to take the effort to write a post and comment on this one

You run true to form, nobody, myself included, would expect anything else but garbage from yourself.

I'm not in a position to solve all the problems and important news stories this country has to deal with. As a member of the oppositions shadow cabinet, she is. Yet she chose to highlight this. It shows what her priorities are, and it obviously isn't focusing on the needs of the people.

Now do you get it.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:29 am

upanatem wrote:DA, I appreciate the point you are making, but why the need to call the OP an 'idiot'? We each have entirely different views of the world, and because someone else's view is different to yours, does that render the person an 'idiot'?

It was a parody of his original post so I just reused the language he used about the Labour MP. I agree though there was no need for him to call the MP an idiot just because they have a different view

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:29 am

dsr wrote:There is surely nothing wrong in white people trying to imitate the best that black people have done. That is what Oliver has done. The fact that he has done it badly does not mean it should not have been done at all.

He hasn't though. The only "imitation" is in the name. None of the ingredients are the same and you can only jerk meat (ooer). He's just applied the name to something entirely different to try and get more sales.

I think it's certainly safe to say he's appropriated the term, regardless of the cultural element.

It's like someone selling a white t-shirt as a "Burnley" t-shirt to capitalise on the success of Burnley but without any actual link to Burnley.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:48 am

aggi wrote:He hasn't though. The only "imitation" is in the name. None of the ingredients are the same and you can only jerk meat (ooer). He's just applied the name to something entirely different to try and get more sales.

I think it's certainly safe to say he's appropriated the term, regardless of the cultural element.

It's like someone selling a white t-shirt as a "Burnley" t-shirt to capitalise on the success of Burnley but without any actual link to Burnley.

That's a fair-ish analogy. And if someone did sell a fake Burnley t-shirt, it would be a matter of cashing in on someone else's work, but it wouldn't be grounds to start a pseudo-race row about cultural appropriation of the heritage of the people of Burnley. Nicking someone else's idea may be wrong, but if the person who's idea you nick has dark skin, it doesn't add to or detract from the wrongness.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:52 am

Not sure why she's taking offence on behalf of Jamacans when she is quite clearly Scottish.

: IMG_20180821_114725.jpg (234.58 KiB) Viewed 3566 times

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:00 pm

I thought you meant all those people collecting blackberries off the bushes, now.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:14 pm

dsr wrote:That's a fair-ish analogy. And if someone did sell a fake Burnley t-shirt, it would be a matter of cashing in on someone else's work, but it wouldn't be grounds to start a pseudo-race row about cultural appropriation of the heritage of the people of Burnley. Nicking someone else's idea may be wrong, but if the person who's idea you nick has dark skin, it doesn't add to or detract from the wrongness.

But would you not expect some Burnley fans to be unhappy and criticise the person for using their club as in terms of the analogy that would be the equivalent of someone with Jamaican heritage criticising someone for using part of their cultural heritage to make money?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:20 pm

Damo wrote:Not sure why she's taking offence on behalf of Jamacans when she is quite clearly Scottish.
IMG_20180821_114725.jpg

It's a bowl of rice FFS!

The woman clearly lacks proportionality, and is unable to resist the reflex to adopt victimhood and assume the role of the offended in chief on behalf of her "commumuity"

A Jamaican guy on the radio yesterday said he was embarrassed by her whining and she "just needs to chill."

It's a bowl of rice......

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:31 pm

Chobulous wrote:I think you have missed the point there. If you are going to use the name of a traditional seasoning to sell a product then at least try to ensure that it contains some of the correct ingredients.

Nope, the MP was quite clear in what she accused him of - it was "cultural appropriation".

If Jamie's got a recipe that people don't like then people won't buy it. There's very little morality in recipes (unless you're cooking up humans, I suppose).

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:38 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Butler basically correct here.
If Jamie Oliver started marketing something as a Traditional Steak and Ale Pie, and it had no Ale in it, then there would be justifiable criticism.
This (as I understand it) is the point.

Nope.

The accusation was one of cultural appropriation. It was the MPs own words.

Steak and ale pie with no ale would fall foul of trades descriptions act. There is presumably no definition of what constitutes "jerk chicken".

If Dawn Butler wants to create a national definition of jerk chicken then as an MP she is in a remarkably strong position to set about doing so - we have shed loads of (mainly EU) legislation on this. I don't believe she's gone down this route though. It looks a tad more like grandstanding rather than a noble quest to define the ingredients of a cultural spice mix.

Admittedly I've been out of the UK for 2 years now. Does Parliament now make legislation via MPs tweets and based on likes and retweets?

Whether she's genuinely interested in creating a legally binding definition of "jerk chicken" or not I don't know. But what I do know is that she's at least equally interested in a culture war and bandying about silly accusations like "cultural appropriation".

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:41 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:It's a bowl of rice FFS!

The woman clearly lacks proportionality, and is unable to resist the reflex to adopt victimhood and assume the role of the offended in chief on behalf of her "commumuity"

A Jamaican guy on the radio yesterday said he was embarrassed by her whining and she "just needs to chill."

It's a bowl of rice......

Apart from the bit of your post which I highlighted (where I think you are lacking a bit of proportionality on the matter) I actually agree with your post. Oliver is an arsehole and what he's doing isn't very ethical but it is only a bowl of rice and it seems a subject more for trading standards than the houses of parliament

Edit: By the way me calling the original poster an idiot was me parodying the original posters own language and not be thinking or caring whether he was an idiot or not

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:44 pm

Rowls wrote:Nope.

The accusation was one of cultural appropriation. It was the MPs own words.

Steak and ale pie with no ale would fall foul of trades descriptions act. There is presumably no definition of what constitutes "jerk chicken".

If Dawn Butler wants to create a national definition of jerk chicken then as an MP she is in a remarkably strong position to set about doing so - we have shed loads of (mainly EU) legislation on this. I don't believe she's gone down this route though. It looks a tad more like grandstanding rather than a noble quest to define the ingredients of a cultural spice mix.

Admittedly I've been out of the UK for 2 years now. Does Parliament now make legislation via MPs tweets and based on likes and retweets?

Whether she's genuinely interested in creating a legally binding definition of "jerk chicken" or not I don't know. But what I do know is that she's at least equally interested in a culture war and bandying about silly accusations like "cultural appropriation".

I knew that someone like you would challenge the Steak and Ale bit!
i actually agree with you about the cultural appropriation bit - by the way, but I think that "Jerk Chicken" that doesn't have the correct ingredients in should also fall foul of the TD Act.
What about Eccles Cakes without currants? - since you regard Steak and Ale as a poor analogy?

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:52 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:I knew that someone like you would challenge the Steak and Ale bit!
i actually agree with you about the cultural appropriation bit - by the way, but I think that "Jerk Chicken" that doesn't have the correct ingredients in should also fall foul of the TD Act.
What about Eccles Cakes without currants? - since you regard Steak and Ale as a poor analogy?

This site should help you find the answers you're looking for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... ted_status" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't imagine if you set up selling eccles cakes without currants you'd be in business long. They're not a "protected" foodstuff either so you'd be perfectly capable of doing so. The consumer can -and should- decide on these matters.

Don't like Jamie's jerk? Then don't buy Jamie's jerk. It's as simple as not buying eccles cakes without currants or not buying imitation white Burnley shirts.

Is anyone out there selling eccles cakes without currants or fake, white Burnley shirts? Why do you suppose this is?

I personally think it's a waste of time and do hope it's not wasting Parliamentary time. It's hardly a pressing issue, is it?

Jamie's recipe will be judged on how people like it. "It's not really jerk chicken though?" is not something a high profile MP ought to be busying themselves with.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:57 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Apart from the bit of your post which I highlighted (where I think you are lacking a bit of proportionality on the matter) I actually agree with your post. Oliver is an arsehole and what he's doing isn't very ethical but it is only a bowl of rice and it seems a subject more for trading standards than the houses of parliament

Edit: By the way me calling the original poster an idiot was me parodying the original posters own language and not be thinking or caring whether he was an idiot or not

"Me calling the original poster an idiot"

Was not "me thinking or caring whether he was an idiot"

I was very careful not to call you an idiot earlier.

Times up!

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:03 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:"Me calling the original poster an idiot"

Was not "me thinking or caring whether he was an idiot"

I was very careful not to call you an idiot earlier.

Times up!

Ramble Ramble Ramble

I wont try and explain the concept of parody
Ramble Ramble Ramble

2-0, 2-0, 2-0, 2-0

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:25 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Ramble Ramble Ramble
I wont try and explain the concept of parody
Ramble Ramble Ramble
2-0, 2-0, 2-0, 2-0

No need!

You single handedly personify it!

Out of the jaws of a respectable draw, you've only gone and wrestled another own goal!!!

"Me calling the original poster an idiot"

Was not "me thinking or caring whether he was an idiot"

Surely a spoof post! No!?

Comedy gold!

upanatem · Post by **upanatem** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:05 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:It was a parody of his original post so I just reused the language he used about the Labour MP. I agree though there was no need for him to call the MP an idiot just because they have a different view

DA, clever response, and, yes, I noted the parody. But you have totally avoided my question: 'why the need to call the OP an 'idiot'?' I'll ask another question as well: would you call someone an idiot to their face?

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:18 pm

Meanwhile, there's people queuing up at foodbanks. There's people living in shop doorways. There's the working poor living a life of poverty on zero-hour contracts - and she comes out with this sh1te.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:19 pm

upanatem wrote:DA, clever response, and, yes, I noted the parody. But you have totally avoided my question: 'why the need to call the OP an 'idiot'?' I'll ask another question as well: would you call someone an idiot to their face?

I don't think I have avoided your question but i'll try and be clearer.

I reused his language and was highlighting that what he was doing was no different to what the person he called an idiot was doing and so by his own logic he is labelling himself an idiot. Of course because I don't spell out what I mean literally I run the risk of people interpreting the subtlety of my post incorrectly but then again I'm not to worried if a few people think I seriously called someone an idiot on a football messageboard as that in itself isn't that bigger deal imo.

With regards your second question then it depends on context and situation but no I would very rarely rudely call someone an idiot to their face as I very seldom do on here. If I was speaking to someone and they started getting worked up about that MPs comments on Jamie Oliver and going on about race appropriation and calling her an idiot then I could well be likely to reply with a light hearted quip along the lines of you must be an idiot to get worked up about something so trivial.

Cant believe my original retort needed this level of discussion but you seem a decent poster so ive made the effort

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:36 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Butler basically correct here.
If Jamie Oliver started marketing something as a Traditional Steak and Ale Pie, and it had no Ale in it, then there would be justifiable criticism.
This (as I understand it) is the point.

.. Except no one would claim it is cultural appropriation.

Can't people just take it as a compliment that people are endevouring to copy something from another culture whether it's correct or not?

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:44 pm

i once got anaesthetic throat spray on my tongue so i know exactly how it feels to be jamie oliver.

upanatem · Post by **upanatem** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:31 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I don't think I have avoided your question but i'll try and be clearer.

I reused his language and was highlighting that what he was doing was no different to what the person he called an idiot was doing and so by his own logic he is labelling himself an idiot. Of course because I don't spell out what I mean literally I run the risk of people interpreting the subtlety of my post incorrectly but then again I'm not to worried if a few people think I seriously called someone an idiot on a football messageboard as that in itself isn't that bigger deal imo.

With regards your second question then it depends on context and situation but no I would very rarely rudely call someone an idiot to their face as I very seldom do on here. If I was speaking to someone and they started getting worked up about that MPs comments on Jamie Oliver and going on about race appropriation and calling her an idiot then I could well be likely to reply with a light hearted quip along the lines of you must be an idiot to get worked up about something so trivial.

Cant believe my original retort needed this level of discussion but you seem a decent poster so ive made the effort

DA, thanks for clarification. But your tone here is very different to your original post.

CharlieinNewMexico · Post by **CharlieinNewMexico** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:13 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Wouldn't that be a Cottage Pie? It would be more like serving mince and onion and calling it Bolagnase.

Technically. But it's just about impossible to get lamb here.

CharlieinNewMexico · Post by **CharlieinNewMexico** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:15 pm

Chobulous wrote:I think you have missed the point there. If you are going to use the name of a traditional seasoning to sell a product then at least try to ensure that it contains some of the correct ingredients.

Isn't there only two requirements, allspice and scotchbonnets?

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:20 pm

Jamie Oliver will be absolutely creaming his pants over this. That's about an additional 20 million people who even knew he had a "jerk rice" recipe.
It's not the biggest crime in the world, every chinese meal you've ever had has naff all to do with China. I'm just annoyed because his recipes are woeful, regardless of the Jamie "brand" title he attaches to them. His quantities are all over the show.

timshorts · Post by **timshorts** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:32 pm

I read jamaica inn during the world cup.

Surprisingly good read for what is essentially a girly adventure story, but there were absolutely no Jamaicans in it.

Daphne De maurier should be dug up and made to answer questions about it in a house of commons committee.

Truly disgraceful.

Pimlico_Claret · Post by **Pimlico_Claret** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:44 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:Meanwhile, there's people queuing up at foodbanks. There's people living in shop doorways. There's the working poor living a life of poverty on zero-hour contracts - and she comes out with this sh1te.

Totally agree -
Prisons in crisis, crime, especially violent, out of control, social care Imploding, councils broke, infrastructure failing - get a bloody grip and focus on the real issues you simpleton, no wonder the Tories are laughing at the so called opposition - pathetic.

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:17 am

CharlieinNewMexico wrote:Isn't there only two requirements, allspice and scotchbonnets?

Neither of which are in this "Jerk" rice. For an internationally renowned chef you would think he would at least do some basic research before adding his name to something his marketing people no doubt came up with. I don't really care about the "cultural appropriation" that is just the current fashionable focus for faux outrage, like mansplaining or whatever else, I just think it is an example of laziness from him.

CharlieinNewMexico · Post by **CharlieinNewMexico** » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:28 am

Chobulous wrote:Neither of which are in this "Jerk" rice. For an internationally renowned chef you would think he would at least do some basic research before adding his name to something his marketing people no doubt came up with. I don't really care about the "cultural appropriation" that is just the current fashionable focus for faux outrage, like mansplaining or whatever else, I just think it is an example of laziness from him.

Obviously. Because if he'd done it it would be called "weally wather scwummy ricey Wednesday night family night goodness" or some such shite