The system

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:27 pm

Fair point nl, but the point about the system is that we used to play a successful, and dare I say entertaining, 442, where our central four worked hard to protect our back four an then support the front two, when possible. This current system does not do that.

Barry_Chuckle · Post by **Barry_Chuckle** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:30 pm

NL Claret, I failed to see the Brighton midfield bow down to these superstars the other week.

We gave them too much respect, stood off them and let them play their game, tactically we were inept!

warksclaret · Post by **warksclaret** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:41 pm

Can accept that but Brighton outplayed much of the same team

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:45 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:The system isn't the issue, its how we are using it.
Last year our success was built on this system, and when we started to wobble we went 4-4-2 and direct.
That can work, but we weren't 9 wins and in fourth place by being a direct 4-4-2 team.
Bit of confidence, get some of the injury table, start realising that our best midfielder this season is Hendrick and we will be fine.

There is no system. Football just doesn't work like that.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:49 pm

FactualFrank wrote:There is no system. Football just doesn't work like that.

Of course Dyche plays to a system. It's what his success has been built on.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:55 pm

4-4-2 was fine when we had genuine workhorses on the wide midfield positions

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:57 pm

I would suggest he plays to 'a plan'. A plan that has served him and us well but unfortunately a plan that is now becoming somewhat frayed around the edges. Does he have a plan B?

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:02 pm

Barry_Chuckle wrote:NL Claret, I failed to see the Brighton midfield bow down to these superstars the other week.

We gave them too much respect, stood off them and let them play their game, tactically we were inept!

Perhaps they owed their gaffer one after the last two performances, perhaps his post Spurs antics have got into the players heads?

Don't get me wrong we are not playing well or playing the system well or playing an odd combination of the 442 451 together. A manager like theirs knows our limitations and how to set up accordingly and how to get a reaction from his players.

We are limited, even more so with the injuries and top PL sides do their homework. It will be a difficult season but it is , what it is.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:05 pm

Wood upfront on his own is a complete waste of time. Can't do it and just looks thoroughly ****** off having to try and do it.

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:05 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:We will never compete with Pogba, Matic and Fellaini even if we had 6 in midfield. Some wont like it but our best threat (without Defour types) is to bypass the midfield and go direct to two big men up top.

Barnes would have caused havoc with Shaw and Lindlof. Instead they had the easiest game they will ever have.

From what I’ve seen Mourinho rarely starts with Fellaini. Today, he played him in front of the back 4 to completely negate the threat of our target man. A compliment of sorts maybe, but it worked a treat - that’s why Smalling an lindloff had such an easy game.

Our problem was that there was no plan B. We never changed anything until after Rashford got sent off - then we finally started to ask a few questions.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:07 pm

I can't help thinking that some who have only enjoyed our successes need to understand that a small club in East Lancashire may struggle against the very rich city PL clubs.
Really, what do some of you expect?

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:07 pm

scouseclaret wrote:From what I’ve seen Mourinho rarely starts with Fellaini. Today, he played him in front of the back 4 to completely negate the threat of our target man. A compliment of sorts maybe, but it worked a treat - that’s why Smalling an lindloff had such an easy game.

Our problem was that there was no plan B. We never changed anything until after Rashford got sent off - then we finally started to ask a few questions.

Exactly. Good planning and tactics by Mourinho which totally nullified our system.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:11 pm

taio wrote:Exactly. Good planning and tactics by Mourinho which totally nullified our system.

Mourinho did exactly the same thing last season which begs the question why didn't we have a plan B?

Barnes should of started to unsettle Lindelof and Smalling and to wind Fellaini up.

Vydra should of played up with him because he's quick tricky and makes good runs so it'd of asked questions of there defence

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:14 pm

Silkyskills1 wrote:I would suggest he plays to 'a plan'. A plan that has served him and us well but unfortunately a plan that is now becoming somewhat frayed around the edges. Does he have a plan B?

Dyche only has plug and play tactics code named framework. It’s dull, repetitive and been busted.

I hope there is at least a plan b but wouldn’t hold my breath as we haven’t seen it in 5+ years Dyche has been with us.

Granny WeatherWax · Post by **Granny WeatherWax** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:15 pm

He’s going to get us playing like Fulham. He said so last weekend. Can’t wait.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:16 pm

Right_winger wrote:Dyche only has plug and play tactics code named framework. It’s dull, repetitive and been busted.

I hope there is at least a plan b but wouldn’t hold my breath as we haven’t seen it in 5+ years Dyche has been with us.

We should probably give him his P45 tomorrow.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:17 pm

Needs to think of one fast because we have been sussed out in this league.
He always moans about British coaches not getting jobs but he's one dimensional not many prem clubs would put up we it for long

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:17 pm

I think 4-5-1 was working for a while last season and for certain teams who pack their midfield it probably is still relevant.

However, it does not appear to be playing to our current strengths at the moment and we look a better team when we go to 4-4-2. We create a lot more chances.

For todays game my own view is that we were set up wrong and it cost us the game. United`s defence has been poor this season - they were shocking against Brighton and Spurs and Lindeloff in particular is an accident waiting to happen. Instead playing one up front gave them the easiest of games.

With Lennon struggling all season and offering us absolutely nothing today I cannot understand how he stayed on the pitch. With no other wide player options on the bench we should have left McNeil on or brought both wingers off. Hendrick was having a good game - he plays out wide for Ireland sometimes and I`d rather keep players on the pitch who are playing well than leave on a winger who was having a shocker just because he is a winger.

Hendrick, Westwood and Cork are all having decent seasons and are probably our 3 best players this year.....keep them on the pitch and switch things round to lose those having a shocker....like Taylor, Wood, Lennon.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:27 pm

Tall Paul wrote:We should probably give him his P45 tomorrow.

He shouldn’t be far off if we continue like this for much longer. We are stale and lacking ideas

SGr · Post by **SGr** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:30 pm

4-2-3-1 with Vydra as the 10 is what I believe to be the best system for the group of players we have.

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:36 pm

Except Vydra isn't fit enough. Or Dyche doesn't rate him ready for that yet. Hopefully he'll be in the equation after the break in a couple of weeks - because he's the only player we brought in to replace Arfield, Wells, Walters and Marney.

Giftonsnoidea · Post by **Giftonsnoidea** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:10 pm

You wonder which game Dyche is watching sometimes as his subs can be mind boggingly bad, takes the best players off and leaves the strugglers on....

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:17 pm

taio wrote:Exactly. Good planning and tactics by Mourinho which totally nullified our system.

A United perspective off Twitter.

Some fans think they know better than a manager who trains every day with players and studies opposition to know how to set up his team. Without Fellaini today's game would have been tougher

Their manager knows how to set up to nullify the way we play. The happy go lucky chap behind me bemoaned how we never score against (Manchester) United at home. He also slated Hart until the penalty save.

Giftonsnoidea · Post by **Giftonsnoidea** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:36 pm

We “should “be able to switch between at least 3 to 4 systems (work on training ground needed) and I agree 4-2-3-1 wouldn’t be a bad shout for our current predicament....

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:47 pm

Take the two best and most creative players out of most teams (Palace with Zaha immediately springs to mind) and they wouldn’t perform as well.

Salah/Mane from Liverpool, Hazard/Kante from Chelsea etc...

I said last season that Defour was the main difference maker for us and gave us that edge we had for so long.

Him, alongside Brady, completely change this ‘system’. Bournemouth away last season - some of the best football I’ve seen us play with Hendrick/Wood partnered.

Westwood, as tidy as he sometimes looks, is nowhere near Defour’s level unfortunately.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:47 pm

5 wins in 32 game pretty much proves 4-5-1 doesn't work

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:52 pm

But 4th in the league by October proves it does.

its our best formation, but the players have to play it like they were, and at the moment we are miles away from that level.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:56 pm

What ever worked last season doesn’t mean it will work this season... football you need to evolve and have alternative plans otherwise your a sitting duck. The past 32 games show that we need to change something quickly, we have been found out.

Murger · Post by **Murger** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:56 pm

We can't play that system with the players we have. Westwood is nowhere the player Defour is and Lennon and McNeill aren't at the level of Brady and JBG.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:02 pm

Presently we are far too pedestrian and IMO only Barnes can play the "effective" lone striker. Pinging balls into the box with only one claret shirt there is asking a lot of the pinger of the ball and the lone striker. Final moan- we need to shoot more. A team like us cannot walk the ball into the net in this Division. If you get into the penalty area SHOOT. Not all shots are blocked/saved-some hit the target c/o wicked deflections.

Somethingfishy · Post by **Somethingfishy** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:04 pm

Uwe Noble wrote:. Yes we've missed Defour but Westwood has been quite outstanding this season. He barely misplaced a single pass on Thursday or today. I thought we played well overall against a top side. My main concern is Mee and I think Gibson needs a chance.

Stunned by that comment to be honest. I noticed several people rate him on Thursday and it is quite amazing how people see games differently. I couldn't make the game on Thursday with working nights but i did catch the vast majority on the telly and i decided to watch him a bit closer to see if my perceived issues with him were justified. It was very noticeable how often he gave the ball away sloppily. He seems to get raved about simply because he gets himself the pitch a lot..a midfielders job i would have thought. He was nothing special again today and he was guilty of sloppy passing..one a simple slide ball into Barnes and he hit it wide and too hard and it went for a goal kick..a basic pass. He is certainly our weak link in midfield. I would massively prefer Hendrick back in there alongside Cork while we wait for Defour to get back fit (if ever).

He isn't our biggest form issue though. Mee needs a rest to put it politely. Gibson or Long if Gibson not fully fit. Quit the 451..just doesn't work with the personnel we have. Not enough goals or creativity from our current wide men for it to work. Lennon has flattered to deceive too. McNeil is a bright prospect and i really like what i have seen but we don't want to subject him to too much too soon.

A break now for Brady to get back and Vydra to get fully fit and hopefully Dyche will change things up. I don't hold out much hope though with his stubborness tactically.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:47 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:But 4th in the league by October proves it does.

its our best formation, but the players have to play it like they were, and at the moment we are miles away from that level.

The premier league changed over the summer. Teams have signed more technical players, Wolves and Fulham alone are light years ahead of us in that aspect. Dycheball won't work this year hence the reason quite a few of us where screaming for creativity only to be told that we were whingers.

We are so poor at the moment it's hard to think why...........

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:06 am

It's tempting to pray for swift returns from injury or lament the recruitment, but we are where we are; players get injured, transfers fall through. In the meantime we play the hand we're dealt, and whilst I agree with the widely accepted sentiment about Hendrick being best deployed in the heart of midfield, I think it's harsh on Westwood to call for him to be dropped on account of a few mis-weighted or mis-directed passes. He's actually attempting those forward passes which is more than Cork, who admittedly was the first name on the team sheet last season, has been dong of late. Westwood releases the ball quicker than Cork, for a start, and those half-seconds all count when you're playing the likes of UTD. Considering Defour is out and our recent results have been pish, I certainly don't think he's done enough wrong to not warrant a run in the side as the defensive role along side Hendrick in a two-man midfield. Considering 1. our squad's actual ability, and 2. who we're up against week-in-week-out, playing two natural defensive midfielders puts a tonne of pressure on the wide players to be more creative than we know they actually can be (and they're used as auxiliary fullbacks under Dyche's system), and puts pressure on the No. 10 to drop deeper than a No.10 ought to, thus isolating Wood. We're not seeing the defensive record to warrant persisting with two CDM's because our balance is way off.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:10 am

We got dicked today because of Dyche. Mourinho put out the single most predictable line up this season and we still played 1 up front

MT03ALG · Post by **MT03ALG** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:10 am

3-5-2 would have been ideal today but Sean is not keen on 3-5-2

Somethingfishy · Post by **Somethingfishy** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:20 am

Anybody noticed how Mourinho uses Fellaini against us and how often he normally plays him? Very tactically astute. Mourinho knows we are physical and direct and Fellaini mopped it all up today...as he did last season when he completely nullified Barnes. We play the same way no matter what..all very predictable. We have been sussed.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:43 am

Right_winger wrote:What ever worked last season doesn’t mean it will work this season... football you need to evolve and have alternative plans otherwise your a sitting duck. The past 32 games show that we need to change something quickly, we have been found out.

Completely agree. It’s not exactly like we finished 7th by blowing teams away the way we played either. Most, if not all our wins were tight games which could have gone either way.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:52 am

boatshed bill wrote:I can't help thinking that some who have only enjoyed our successes need to understand that a small club in East Lancashire may struggle against the very rich city PL clubs.
Really, what do some of you expect?

Need to quit with this small club mentality line being trotted out. We are the 72nd richest club in world football.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:36 am

Loving the idea that against Mourinhos team of giants going 4-4-2 and direct "would" have worked.

Spiral has nailed it really, in a post that shines out in the gloom cos he's actually bothered to watch the matches and sees what is going on.

Only thing I disagree with him on is Westwood, who I think is perfectly fine when he's got time and space, and completely nullified when he hasn't as he's just not physical enough. I feel to get the best out of him against the physical giants of the prem is for us to start zinging the ball around, which is about as likely as me turning up at Ewood park.

I'm not panicking yet, but if we can't get our intensity levels back and we continue to defend as we are, then we could be in trouble.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:04 am

There seems to be a huge piece of the puzzle missing in all these discussions, which is the ignorrance of opposition performance. Man United were absolutely woeful against Brighton individually and collectively. Unfortunately they turned up against us.
People seem to forget already, that in order to get a result these games are about hoping the other team has an off day as well as you playing to your best. I'm not saying the other points made about our tactics are irrelevant, but neither is how well the objectively better team plays, surely.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:20 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Loving the idea that against Mourinhos team of giants going 4-4-2 and direct "would" have worked.

Spiral has nailed it really, in a post that shines out in the gloom cos he's actually bothered to watch the matches and sees what is going on.

Only thing I disagree with him on is Westwood, who I think is perfectly fine when he's got time and space, and completely nullified when he hasn't as he's just not physical enough. I feel to get the best out of him against the physical giants of the prem is for us to start zinging the ball around, which is about as likely as me turning up at Ewood park.

I'm not panicking yet, but if we can't get our intensity levels back and we continue to defend as we are, then we could be in trouble.

Easy to avoid Mourinho's tactics, get the ball out wide an drilled in low an hard so it works against height.
Play Barnes and Vydra so there both mobile and annoying the tall players total opposite to what they want an so there height is worked against them.
Instead we brought Vokes on to play even more long balls, showed how poor Dyche is tactically he's fell for it twice at home against Mourinho an his answer was to put another big man on to just challenge there big lads. Avoid the ball in high and there height is against them it's very very simple tactics.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:24 am

Right_winger wrote:Need to quit with this small club mentality line being trotted out. We are the 72nd richest club in world football.

It's no good being the 72nd richest club in the world when almost all our competitors are 71st or higher.

taio · Post by **taio** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:28 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Loving the idea that against Mourinhos team of giants going 4-4-2 and direct "would" have worked.

Spiral has nailed it really, in a post that shines out in the gloom cos he's actually bothered to watch the matches and sees what is going on.

Only thing I disagree with him on is Westwood, who I think is perfectly fine when he's got time and space, and completely nullified when he hasn't as he's just not physical enough. I feel to get the best out of him against the physical giants of the prem is for us to start zinging the ball around, which is about as likely as me turning up at Ewood park.

I'm not panicking yet, but if we can't get our intensity levels back and we continue to defend as we are, then we could be in trouble.

When we went 442 with Vokes on we were clearly better able to respond to Mourinho's plan.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:37 am

Spot on taio
We needed to be 4-4-2 from the start. Smalling maybe good in the air but he makes mistakes. Lindelof is poor in the air and shocking on the ground.
Yes they bring Felaini back but with Matic playing so deep also this surely means we have spare men.

Playing 4-5-1 simply did not occupy their centre backs enough. It meant even when Wood won the ball (and he did win a few) there is nobody their to scrap for the second ball. We made Feliani look brilliant when he looks pedestrian against most other teams and Lindelof was still very poor but he kicked it out of play rather than beating him to the ball or pressure him into those awful pass backs he was doing against Spurs.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:39 am

And how many goals did we score? Did we look like we were going to score?

Apart from a couple of headers in the very last minute of the game from Vokes and Vydra, we didn't look like really troubling them once.

Look, 4-5-1 is our best formation, not 4-4-2. We clearly are struggling at the moment playing either and that won't change till we get players back or the current crop form improves so we can compete at this level.

With the exception of Hendrick, pretty much everybody is either slightly down or some cases, way down from last seasons performance levels and the results reflect it sadly.

taio · Post by **taio** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:44 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:And how many goals did we score? Did we look like we were going to score?

Apart from a couple of headers in the very last minute of the game from Vokes and Vydra, we didn't look like really troubling them once.

Look, 4-5-1 is our best formation, not 4-4-2. We clearly are struggling at the moment playing either and that won't change till we get players back or the current crop form improves so we can compete at this level.

With the exception of Hendrick, pretty much everybody is either slightly down or some cases, way down from last seasons performance levels and the results reflect it sadly.

We scored none. Created more chances. We had improved balance and were able to better compete. It was as clear as day.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:44 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:And how many goals did we score? Did we look like we were going to score?

Vokes did have the biggest chance of the game, apart from the penalty.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:52 am

Which I mentioned!

I respect your opinions guys but I don't agree that us going 4-4-2 is going to make enough of a difference whilst our players continue to underperform.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:59 am

We created more in the last 10 mins than the rest of the game.
When you say “did we look like we were going to score ?” it looked very much like it when Vokes missed a header from 5 yards out.

We played 4-4-2 on Thursday and created more chances than i have seen in a long long time.

When was the last time Wood had a good effective game as the lone striker ?

Yes our players are underperforming and we have injuries but right now with what we have got 4-4-2 is a better option for me. If we get Brady, Defour, JBG back and Wood back to the way he was playing against the likes of Liverpool at Anfield then 4-5-1 might be the better system against certain teams.

Have we ever actually played well using 4-5-1 when Westwood and Lennon have played and we are missing key players in that system like Defour, Lowton or JBG / Brady ? If we have I can’t remember it.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:00 am

It's not that simple though is it, Vokes came on after an hour. Is that the same as starting a 442? No. The fact we were sluggish without the ball from the off with a 5 means pogba, lingard, matic and fellaini with Sanchez drifting might've run riot. They may not, but there's a lot of people making this a lot more simplistic than it is.
The bottom line is we're nowhere near our best because we've played loads of Thursday night games in a short period. Against Man United, if they play well which they did, we were always going to struggle.