2.7 Million Brexiteers Have Changed to Remain

[RingoMcCartney]

What do you think WWII movies are based on? Are you really trying to suggest that comparing someone to a Nazi in a film is somehow different to comparing them to a Nazi ? Because that would make you as stupid as Jim Carey’s character in Dumb and Dumber (I’m not comparing you to real-life idiot, so I’m sure you won’t take offence).

Doesn’t Boris (who I believe was Foreign Secretary at the time of his comments) consider himself a statesman?

Your double standards are amazing. EU bad, Brexit good, irrespective of what either side actually says or does.

Oh, and if you don’t think anyone is upset about what Tusk said then I suggest you haven’t been reading very closely. Here’s two examples from this page.





Don't you think Murger and Jakob seem a little bit upset by Tusk’s photo?

Also, Ringo called him (Tusk) a “14 year old statesman” and then about three hours (and probably about four bottles of gin) later said he has “the diplomacy skills of a toddler”, yet I can’t remember him saying anything similar about Boris. Funny that, isn’t it?

"4 bottles of gin later"

When you accuse people of being drunk you really have lost the argument.....

[Paul Waine]

Were all the snowflakes on here who are so upset about Tusk’s fairly harmless Instagram cake joke equally upset when Boris compared the EU to Nazis dishing out punishment beatings? Or was Boris being respectful and statesmanlike?

Hi Greenmile, I said to my wife this morning "Donald Tusk twinned with Boris Johnson." And, of course, we could add "and Donald Trump."

It's not upset. It's certainly not "snowflakery" (is that only a millennial thing?).

Where is the diplomacy? Where are the standards of acting with "common decency" to our fellow human beings?

Of course, I'm not just thinking of Tusk.

Put the different views within the UK aside, for a moment. Just think of an organsiation that has been founded for the purposes of peace and democracy. Then think what should be the response if one of those members chooses, democractically, that they wish to leave the organisation? Should the "organisation for peace" start to "throw stones" (metaphorically, of course) and make it difficult/unpleasant for their fellow member to leave? Or, should they say, "ok, sorry you are leaving, but we will still be friends and we will do all we can to make it easy for you to leave and for both the leaving member and the remaining members to continue to "live in harmony" in our new neighbourly status.

It was always my argument that the EU elite had lost their way; that Brussels had something of "Versailles" immediately before the French revolution about it; that one of the ways to avoid a real crisis across the EU in future years weas for the UK to leave - and give the EU the opportunity to reflect on why the UK had left.

I was always strongly in favour of the UK joining the EEC. I was strongly in favour of the single market and customs union. The euro was (and continues to be) a big mistake for the EU (and Gordon Brown's greatest gift to our nation was blocking Tony Blair taking the UK into the euro). And, the EU elites continue to behave more and more as though they are the court of the "Sun King."

Regrettably, the majority of the UK's elites and opinion formers, also don't get it - hence we have these continuously acrimonious debates in politics, in the media and on social media.

If we can leave the EU now - and a deal and friendship is better than "no deal" - then somewhere in the years ahead (30, 40, 50..... because the EU needs time to sort things out for themselves...) then the UK will either happily re-joining the EU. Or, and better still "protectionist Europe" will have fallen away and been replaced by a broader and wider Union of World Democracies....

[RingoMcCartney]

Flap your little gums all you want but Euroscepticism peaked on the day of the referendum. Your movement failed the day its most prominent advocates ran away from responsibility.

"Prominent advocates ran away"  

Nigel Farage - still an MEP
Daniel Hannon - still an MEP
Michael Gove - still a minister in the UK government
Boris Johnson - still MP in UK government and (potential PM)
Jacob Rees Mogg - still an MP in the UK government and forcing the rabid far left speech denying thugs to wet themselves at night.
And all of them still arguing the case day in day out.

Where as.


Cameron and Osborne couldn't get their trainers on quick enough.

[aggi]

"4 bottles of gin later"

When you accuse people of being drunk you really have lost the argument.....

I'm a bit old for this kind of thing but LOL.

The worrying thing is that Ringo won't even understand the irony.

[Paul Waine]

You’re giving purely empirical evidence. Life got better for you under Thatcher because you were at an age and had a skill set to take best advantage of the climate she created. For everyone like you there are many who suffered. And likewise conditions were considerably better during the 50s and 60s than they had been before.

Hi Andrew, sorry, I wasn't comparing my life, I was making comparisons of UK living standards across the decades. And, I think, all I was saying is that no one wants to go back to an earlier time, because we are all better off now on a collective basis.

That's it for me on this thread - for a couple of weeks - I'll be on holiday in New England.

All, look after our Clarets while I'm away.

UTC

[RingoMcCartney]

I'm a bit old for this kind of thing but LOL.
.

You're clearly not......

[aggi]

You're clearly not......

So it seems. I never expected someone who has spent 18 months doing drunk jokes to suddenly get all high and mighty about it. I'm probably not the only one who chuckled.

[AndrewJB]

Hi Andrew, sorry, I wasn't comparing my life, I was making comparisons of UK living standards across the decades. And, I think, all I was saying is that no one wants to go back to an earlier time, because we are all better off now on a collective basis.

That's it for me on this thread - for a couple of weeks - I'll be on holiday in New England.

All, look after our Clarets while I'm away.

UTC

It’s accepted that under Thatcher entire communities were devestated through industries shutting down, and this was a result of her policies. Those people were left to rot on the dole. This was her government’s conscious choice. Any improvement in living standards (as technology improved) must be measured against this.

[RingoMcCartney]

So it seems. I never expected someone who has spent 18 months doing drunk jokes to suddenly get all high and mighty about it. I'm probably not the only one who chuckled.

When I call Jean Claude Junker a drunk - fact.

When posters claim I'm drunk - a little bit desperate.

As for laughing. If every single person registered on this message board finds me being called drunk funny. The number would be infinitely miniscule compared to the millions around the world who find it hysterical, if not a little concerning, when they look on aghast, at the well publicised antics, of the permanently p1ssed, hapless clown, that is the president of the European Commission.

Word is, if you need to discuss anything with him. You have to get in before midday and he will already have his snout in his, very well stocked, drinks cabinet! After that it's back to form as an incoherent face slapping embaressmmt!

[claretspice]

Hi Greenmile, I said to my wife this morning "Donald Tusk twinned with Boris Johnson." And, of course, we could add "and Donald Trump."

It's not upset. It's certainly not "snowflakery" (is that only a millennial thing?).

Where is the diplomacy? Where are the standards of acting with "common decency" to our fellow human beings?

Of course, I'm not just thinking of Tusk.

Put the different views within the UK aside, for a moment. Just think of an organsiation that has been founded for the purposes of peace and democracy. Then think what should be the response if one of those members chooses, democractically, that they wish to leave the organisation? Should the "organisation for peace" start to "throw stones" (metaphorically, of course) and make it difficult/unpleasant for their fellow member to leave? Or, should they say, "ok, sorry you are leaving, but we will still be friends and we will do all we can to make it easy for you to leave and for both the leaving member and the remaining members to continue to "live in harmony" in our new neighbourly status.

It was always my argument that the EU elite had lost their way; that Brussels had something of "Versailles" immediately before the French revolution about it; that one of the ways to avoid a real crisis across the EU in future years weas for the UK to leave - and give the EU the opportunity to reflect on why the UK had left.

I was always strongly in favour of the UK joining the EEC. I was strongly in favour of the single market and customs union. The euro was (and continues to be) a big mistake for the EU (and Gordon Brown's greatest gift to our nation was blocking Tony Blair taking the UK into the euro). And, the EU elites continue to behave more and more as though they are the court of the "Sun King."

Regrettably, the majority of the UK's elites and opinion formers, also don't get it - hence we have these continuously acrimonious debates in politics, in the media and on social media.

If we can leave the EU now - and a deal and friendship is better than "no deal" - then somewhere in the years ahead (30, 40, 50..... because the EU needs time to sort things out for themselves...) then the UK will either happily re-joining the EU. Or, and better still "protectionist Europe" will have fallen away and been replaced by a broader and wider Union of World Democracies....

This is a remarkably self-entitled argument. Its based on the premise the EU should put the UK's interests above those of the EU bloc when the two dont align. It assumes a club based on strict membership rules should waive at least some of those rules to facilitate the UK leaving on terms palatable to the UK.

And the EU has no incentive to go along with that. None. It has an interest in making sure the UK cannot be held up in future as an example that leaving can be painless. Thats worth a lot to the EU because it only works if the entire bloc plays by the same rules.

Whatever the faults of the EU - and there are many - it is also the Union the Uk created. The two things which seemingly cause problems for us now - the entirely seamless free market, the enornous expansion into Eastern Europe that both makes it sprawling an unwieldy and causes unequal living standards to bring out the worst in free movement - those are UK creations. They weren't forced upon us. Thatcher and Blair led Europe in creating them. To paint it as an aloof foreign body is therefore wrong.

Finally, whilst Juncker and Tusk are hardly impressive statesmen, they've behaved nowhere near as boorishly towards Britain as Johnson and his cronies have towards the EU. And in any event, Tusk and Juncker are effectively civil servants. The people who stuck two fingers up at May for her plans (which are a fudge) on Thursday had no issue with democratic deficit or being EU insiders. They were the elected heads of government of the EU members, not faceless unanswerable administrators.

[Greenmile]

"Prominent advocates ran away"  

Nigel Farage - still an MEP
Daniel Hannon - still an MEP
Michael Gove - still a minister in the UK government
Boris Johnson - still MP in UK government and (potential PM)
Jacob Rees Mogg - still an MP in the UK government and forcing the rabid far left speech denying thugs to wet themselves at night.
And all of them still arguing the case day in day out.

Where as.


Cameron and Osborne couldn't get their trainers on quick enough.

Did you forget you’d already posted this 5 minutes earlier? I wonder why.

[RingoMcCartney]

Did you forget you’d already posted this 5 minutes earlier? I wonder why.

Why do you think I wonder?.....

[Devils_Advocate]

Did you forget you’d already posted this 5 minutes earlier? I wonder why.

[Greenmile]

Why do you think I wonder?.....

I don’t think you wonder (I’m not convinced you have the faculties, tbh). I wonder though.

[RingoMcCartney]

So. The Remoaners cannot deny that all the main brexiteers are STILL here and gunning for leaving the EU.

And when it's pointed out that the 2 main generals of the remain campaign have been confined to the political "where are they now" drawer. They have to resort to desperate accusations of the poster pointing it out bring drunk. Even resorting to uploading pictures!

Illustrates my point succinctly.

[Greenmile]

So. The Remoaners cannot deny that all the main brexiteers are STILL here and gunning for leaving the EU.

And when it's pointed out that the 2 main generals of the remain campaign have been confined to the political "where are they now" drawer. They have to resort to desperate accusations of the poster pointing it out bring drunk. Even resorting to uploading pictures!

Illustrates my point succinctly.

You think saying the exact same thing twice means it must be true? Certainly explains your MO on here.

[Devils_Advocate]

I dont engage with drunks. They bring you down to their own level and beat you with experience

[RingoMcCartney]

You think saying the exact same thing twice means it must be true? Certainly explains your MO on here.

You've claimed that I'm drunk repeatedly. It doesn't mean it must be true.

Mr Kettle let me introduce you to Mr Pot........

[RingoMcCartney]

I dont engage with drunks. They bring you down to their own level and beat you with experience

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[Greenmile]

You've claimed that I'm drunk repeatedly. It doesn't mean it must be true.

Mr Kettle let me introduce you to Mr Pot........

I’ve never said it to you, though, so it doesn’t count, apparently.

[burnleymik]

Edit - here’s another couple of examples of Brexit snowflakery over Tusk’s comments from another thread. They seem upset to me, but I’m sure dsr will explain that they aren’t.

What a strange view. You will realise most Brexiteers have no faith in Theresa May, but she is our PM and that should command respect from the EU. It was n't just Tusk who treated our PM with contempt.

I am amazed that anyone, regardless of whether remain or leave, could think the way their own PM was treated was acceptable. I think that just shows how blinkered some people can be.

[Greenmile]

What a strange view. You will realise most Brexiteers have no faith in Theresa May, but she is our PM and that should command respect from the EU. It was n't just Tusk who treated our PM with contempt.

I am amazed that anyone, regardless of whether remain or leave, could think the way their own PM was treated was acceptable. I think that just shows how blinkered some people can be.

Was it acceptable to compare the EU to Nazis, as Boris did? It’s just I don’t remember you throwing your toys out and calling him disgusting when he did that.

[RingoMcCartney]

I’ve never said it to you, though, so it doesn’t count, apparently.

Your levels of comprehension really leave something to desire.

Nobody said "it doesn't count".

And regardless of who you saying it to. Your opinion doesn't count for me to be really honest.

Nice try though. Well, I say nice......

[Greenmile]

Poor Ringo. So addled by the booze he can’t remember what he said just a couple of days ago.

[burnleymik]

Was it acceptable to compare the EU to Nazis, as Boris did? It’s just I don’t remember you throwing your toys out and calling him disgusting when he did that.

Is Boris an elected leader? Was Boris in the EU representing Britain?

You are comparing apples to oranges. Wonderful levels of whataboutery though.

[RingoMcCartney]

Poor Ringo. So addled by the booze he can’t remember what he said just a couple of days ago.

You memory is clearly worse than mine!

The last thing I wrote was your opinion doesn't count.

Try your very best to absorb this as it clearly went one ear and out the other the first time gold fish brain.

You've claimed that I'm drunk repeatedly. It doesn't mean it must be true.

[Devils_Advocate]

What a strange view. You will realise most Brexiteers have no faith in Theresa May, but she is our PM and that should command respect from the EU. It was n't just Tusk who treated our PM with contempt.

I am amazed that anyone, regardless of whether remain or leave, could think the way their own PM was treated was acceptable. I think that just shows how blinkered some people can be.

Youre talking rubbish. I haven't seen anyone condone or support the behaviour of Tusk but what they have done is show the hypocrisy of those who thought it was great how Boris stuck it to the EU in the same contemptuous manner are now up in arms and disgusted by Tusk.

[Greenmile]

Is Boris an elected leader? Was Boris in the EU representing Britain?

Erm, yes he is and yes he was. He was an elected MP who held the role of Foreign Secretary, so every public pronouncement he made was him representing Britain. This is pretty basic stuff.

[burnleymik]

Erm, yes he is and yes he was. He was an elected MP who held the role of Foreign Secretary, so every public pronouncement he made was him representing Britain. This is pretty basic stuff.

What was he the elected leader of when he made that comment? He is not representing the UK anymore, only his constituents.

That is pretty basic stuff...

[Greenmile]

You memory is clearly worse than mine!

The last thing I wrote was your opinion doesn't count.

I never said it was the last thing you wrote did I? See, I can remember more than one post at a time.

[burnleymik]

Youre talking rubbish. I haven't seen anyone condone or support the behaviour of Tusk but what they have done is show the hypocrisy of those who thought it was great how Boris stuck it to the EU in the same contemptuous manner are now up in arms and disgusted by Tusk.

They are completely separate situations. May was there on behalf of the UK. Boris made personal comments. Surely even you can see the difference in the two scenarios.

[RingoMcCartney]

I never said it was the last thing you wrote did I? See, I can remember more than one post at a time.

No. But I did. As mik says, you really do struggle with the basics.

I can see now, why you're a Remoaner.

[burnleymik]

Also, to clarify Boris didn't compare the EU to Nazi's, he stated they were contemplating "Nazi style actions", which is not the same thing, but hey, don;t let context stop you from trying to make your point..

[Greenmile]

What was he the elected leader of when he made that comment? He is not representing the UK anymore, only his constituents.

That is pretty basic stuff...

He was Foreign Secretary, which means he was representing the British Government. How can you not get that?

From Wikipedia :-

“The Foreign Secretary's remit includes: relations with foreign countries, matters pertaining to the Commonwealth of Nations and the Overseas Territories in addition to the promotion of British interests abroad.”

The mental gymnastics you’re doing to avoid facing up to your hypocrisy are astounding (if not surprising).

[burnleymik]

He was Foreign Secretary, which means he was representing the British Government. How can you not get that?

From Wikipedia :-

“The Foreign Secretary's remit includes: relations with foreign countries, matters pertaining to the Commonwealth of Nations and the Overseas Territories in addition to the promotion of British interests abroad.”

The mental gymnastics you’re doing to avoid facing up to your hypocrisy are astounding (if not surprising).

I stand corrected about the timing, it wasn't his recent comments, but one from 2017.

That said, context clearly isn't your thing. You outright claim he called the EU Nazi's and that is a lie. He didn;t say that did he? Have you got the ability to accept when you are wrong? I doubt it somehow.

[Devils_Advocate]

They are completely separate situations. May was there on behalf of the UK. Boris made personal comments. Surely even you can see the difference in the two scenarios.

Jesus Christ of course the scenarios arent exactly the same but the underlying principle is easily close enough to highlight the hypocrisy. What about the other part of your statement, where are all the posters on here condoning what Tusk has done?

Lets face it you form your opinion purely based on which side said what and not based on the facts and any principles you might actually hold and value

[Greenmile]

Also, to clarify Boris didn't compare the EU to Nazi's, he stated they were contemplating "Nazi style actions", which is not the same thing, but hey, don;t let context stop you from trying to make your point..

Yep, accusing people of contemplating “Nazi style actions” isn’t the same as comparing them to Nazis at all, is it? So if I say you’re making “idiot style posts”, I wouldn’t be comparing you to an idiot?

[burnleymik]

Jesus Christ of course the scenarios arent exactly the same but the underlying principle is easily close enough to highlight the hypocrisy. What about the other part of your statement, where are all the posters on here condoning what Tusk has done?

Lets face it you form your opinion purely based on which side said what and not based on the facts and any principles you might actually hold and value

Where are any remain posters condemning Tusk?

The scenarios are not the same. Has Mrs May insulted Tusk or any EU leader in the same manner? She is the leader of this country right now and that position should command respect. Regardless of you trying to justify it by something Boris said, which is laughable.

[burnleymik]

Yep, accusing people of contemplating “Nazi style actions” isn’t the same as comparing them to Nazis at all, is it? So if I say you’re making “idiot style posts”, I wouldn’t be comparing you to an idiot?

Saying someone is contemplating acting in a certain way is not the same as saying they are something.

Let's stick to the facts eh?

[Greenmile]

I stand corrected about the timing, it wasn't his recent comments, but one from 2017.

That said, context clearly isn't your thing. You outright claim he called the EU Nazi's and that is a lie. He didn;t say that did he? Have you got the ability to accept when you are wrong? I doubt it somehow.

Show me where I said he called them Nazis. I didn’t, so that’s a lie. I didn’t say that did I?

And as for my ability to accept when I’m wrong, what is it with you right-wingers and projection?

[Greenmile]

Saying someone is contemplating acting in a certain way is not the same as saying they are something.

Let's stick to the facts eh?

Again, I never said he called them Nazis, so let’s stick to the facts. I realise you’re finding this difficult, but you can start by reading the words I write.

[ClaretMoffitt]

To be honest I just wish everyone would stop calling everyone else nazis. Nazis are nazis, everyone else isn't.

I do find it funny though how the left are outraged about exaggerated references of nazism being thrown around undeservingly. Irony defined.

[Greenmile]

To be honest I just wish everyone would stop calling everyone else nazis. Nazis are nazis, everyone else isn't.

I do find it funny though how the left are outraged about exaggerated references of nazism being thrown around undeservingly. Irony defined.

Who’s calling anyone a Nazi?

[Devils_Advocate]

Where are any remain posters condemning Tusk?

Why is it the responsibility for a remain poster to come out and proactively condemn someone they have nothing to do with personally or professionally? Again the remain posters on here dont criticise leave posters for not condemning people like Johnson because that would be ridiculous and unfair.

What does need highlighting is hypocrisy as in when you change your opinion on something just because of of which side said/did something cos this just shows your argument and integrity to be completely hollow and worthless

Edit: I see you've still avoided my question about the main part of your original post where you couldnt believe posters are condoning Tusk. So point me towards the evidence of this or just retract it and accept you exaggerated / made things up to make a point

[burnleymik]

Why is it the responsibility for a remain poster to come out and proactively condemn someone they have nothing to do with personally or professionally?

Exactly, so why are you asking us to condemn Boris?

[burnleymik]

Again, I never said he called them Nazis, so let’s stick to the facts. I realise you’re finding this difficult, but you can start by reading the words I write.

Comparing them is calling them.

I realise you are trying to twist the words to suit your own meaning and deflect away from the fact that the two scenarios you are referencing are very different.

Theresa May was visiting the Eu representatives on behalf of the UK, as a guest, to work with them on Brexit and was treated the way she was. It's a world apart from the Boris scenario you are trying to relate it to.

Somehow you think one justifies the other, it doesn't.

[Devils_Advocate]

Exactly, so why are you asking us to condemn Boris?

Im not asking you to condemn Boris. Im saying if you feel strongly enough against that kind of behaviour to Condem tusk you should feel the same when Boris acts the same.

Im suggesting you should be principled to either not care about both of them doing it or be offended by both of them doing it. I am crticising you for only caring enough to make a big deal out of it when it happens to the side you support and when it happens to the other side you will do all you can to defend it as you have done on this thread already

[Greenmile]

Exactly, so why are you asking us to condemn Boris?

Nobody’s asking you to condemn Boris. We’re just pointing out the hypocrisy of you condemning Tusk for making a light-hearted (though admittedly unstatesman-like) comment, when it seems you were perfectly happy for Boris to do the same thing, only far worse.

Which would you prefer, for me to make a joke about you wanting to have your cake and eat it, or for me to compare you to a Nazi?

Edit - DA beat me to it.

[Greenmile]

Saying someone is contemplating acting in a certain way is not the same as saying they are something.

Let's stick to the facts eh?

Comparing them is calling them.

Pretty difficult to stick to “the facts” when you change them every 5 minutes to avoid admitting you’re a hypocrite.

[claretandy]

Offering cake to a diabetic, is akin to offering a recovering alcoholic a double whisky.