Our European scouting network

[claretandy]

Is still 2 years away from being able to sign players according to SD, he said it wasn't ready 3 years ago as well.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sp ... e/?ref=mac" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CharlieinNewMexico]

Where's Culverhouse?

[Guitargeorge]

About as successful as the team negotiating Brexit

[BOYSIE31]

A bit pathetic really - no excuses

Wasted 8 million on Wells and Walters so whats the difference.

[Somethingfishy]

I sort of get the reasoning but there is a false economy there because prices for domestic players are really inflated compared to those on the continent. Some bargains to be had overseas. The problem is not as much the club not wanting to waste money (Wells, Walters??) as Dyche requiring the mentality and background check. That is the hardest part of scouting and creates more issues in bringing in unknown players.
A little too over cautious i feel.

[joey13]

I sort of get the reasoning but there is a false economy there because prices for domestic players are really inflated compared to those on the continent. Some bargains to be had overseas. The problem is not as much the club not wanting to waste money (Wells, Walters??) as Dyche requiring the mentality and background check. That is the hardest part of scouting and creates more issues in bringing in unknown players.
A little too over cautious i feel.

More like shambolic

[houseboy]

I sort of get the reasoning but there is a false economy there because prices for domestic players are really inflated compared to those on the continent. Some bargains to be had overseas. The problem is not as much the club not wanting to waste money (Wells, Walters??) as Dyche requiring the mentality and background check. That is the hardest part of scouting and creates more issues in bringing in unknown players.
A little too over cautious i feel.

Some good points there but I'm not certain that the 'foreign players are cheaper' thinking is true any more. The problem is the whole football world knows that the PL is awash with money and as soon as a club from the PL comes calling the pound (or Euro) signs light up in there eyes. The other problem I think is that foreign players come here not for the prestige of playing in the PL, as so many in this country arrogantly believe, but simply because they can come here and earn obscene amounts of money.

If I am reading you right (and I apologise in advance if I am wrong) I can agree that we are hampered because of the kind of player we are looking for to an extent. Dyche wants a 'type' due to his insistence on hard work, fitness and team-bonding and he therefore probably rules out some quality players that we could maybe afford. I can understand this and it has worked well so far but if we are to push on and really compete on all fronts rather just tread water earning money in the PL then maybe, just possibly, that viewpoint has to change. In all things if you are to keep improving then some risks have to be taken and I wonder sometimes Dyche's ideals are a bit too entrenched. However I still fully back our manager because he is excellent at what he does, I just cannot forgive the way he threw away or Euro ambitions, that and only that has really made me think less of him.

[SGr]

What European scouting network?

[BOYSIE31]

We first got promoted to the big league 9 years ago - no excuses and clubs lower down have better scouting networks
Cannot be that hard to get going.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Write job spec
Advertise role
Interview candidates
Pick best candidate
Let them get on with it

Its hardly rocket science. I am sure there are scouts out there who are capable of judging character!!

[vinrogue]

This is more than just scouting, it requires trusted agents abroad to flag up potential signings. If you look at for example how easy it has been for Wolves to pick off some decent players from the Portuguese league, not because of just the scouting network, but because an agent flags up to the club the possible players who would welcome a chance in the PL, agents will have wage expectations at hand instantly, scouting good players on the pitch abroad does not automatically give you the answers to the transfer questions that have to be asked before any serious discussions can take place. Sadly agents have the power and knowledge these days and so either work with them or struggle along.

[Belgianclaret]

Sorry, but that's just not the way things work. Building a good network does not require millions of quid to be spent, to the contrary. It means building up a solid relation with trusted partners who are not angling for commissions on any deal but are willing to work for the club and provide all the needed information and background regarding any potential player we are interested in.
If we want to evolve like others, we cannot afford not to look into Europe...

[NL Claret]

For all the pathetic and shambolic, has it affected the performance on the field over recent years?

[cricketfieldclarets]

For all the pathetic and shambolic, has it affected the performance on the field over recent years?

Yes. Look at the stats when defour plays vs doesnt.

[dsr]

We first got promoted to the big league 9 years ago - no excuses and clubs lower down have better scouting networks
Cannot be that hard to get going.

If clubs lower down the league have better scouting networks, why are they lower down the leagues?

[Quickenthetempo]

I don't think Dyche wants any European players coming over.

It takes a while for English players to adapt to his system and that's without a language barrier.

[Socrates]

I listened to a podcast last week which said Watford had 35 full-time scouts looking for first team players and staff, including 3 whose sole job was scouting for future managers.

Now I know Watford are the current flavour of the month because of their good start, and I wouldn’t want us to adopt their business model which can be described as chaotic ..... but they are definitely doing some things right.

Doucore, Richarlison, Pereyra, Oghalo, Capoue ..... all signed for peanuts. They’re changing their model too, the vast majority of their recent signings are 24 and under.

I’d be very interested to know just how much resource we dedicate to this field.

[Rileybobs]

Yes. Look at the stats when defour plays vs doesnt.

Defour demonstrates the best and the worst of European recruitment though. He is a fantastic talent and was excellent value, but he has been dogged by injuries and general lack of fitness and his character was called into question for a significant period of his first full season at the club.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Defour demonstrates the best and the worst of European recruitment though. He is a fantastic talent and was excellent value, but he has been dogged by injuries and general lack of fitness and his character was called into question for a significant period of his first full season at the club.

Thats why we need scouts

[jrgbfc]

Is the problem the scouting network or that Dyche isn't willing to give up his comfort blanket of signing British players or players he knows?

[Quickenthetempo]

Defour demonstrates the best and the worst of European recruitment though. He is a fantastic talent and was excellent value, but he has been dogged by injuries and general lack of fitness and his character was called into question for a significant period of his first full season at the club.

His character seemed to get called into question when ultra pro Dyche fans were getting annoyed at the CF stands relentless singing for Defour when Dyche wasn't playing him. They didn't seem to like Defour getting more attention than Dyche.

[dsr]

Is the problem the scouting network or that Dyche isn't willing to give up his comfort blanket of signing British players or players he knows?

I think it's a bit unfair to describe an unwillingness to waste money as a "comfort blanket". When Dyche spends money, he wants to make sure he's getting value for money - is that necessarily a bad thing? Remember that money not spent now can be spent later; money wasted now is wasted forever.

[Quickenthetempo]

I think it's a bit unfair to describe an unwillingness to waste money as a "comfort blanket". When Dyche spends money, he wants to make sure he's getting value for money - is that necessarily a bad thing? Remember that money not spent now can be spent later; money wasted now is wasted forever.

Based on the last few years. Money saved now is only worth half the year after.

[BOYSIE31]

If clubs lower down the league have better scouting networks, why are they lower down the leagues?

Because the big boys then pinch their players !!!

[BOYSIE31]

Is the problem the scouting network or that Dyche isn't willing to give up his comfort blanket of signing British players or players he knows?

It is Dyche has too bloody stubborn

[BOYSIE31]

This is why Dyche will never get a big job - cannot just work with british based players these days as them days are long gone.

Maybe he looks into how Clough worked far too much.

[Rileybobs]

His character seemed to get called into question when ultra pro Dyche fans were getting annoyed at the CF stands relentless singing for Defour when Dyche wasn't playing him. They didn't seem to like Defour getting more attention than Dyche.

I was referring more to his well publicised comments in the media.

[Rileybobs]

This is why Dyche will never get a big job - cannot just work with british based players these days as them days are long gone.

Maybe he looks into how Clough worked far too much.

Whether he will get a big job or not we don’t know. But the big club’s have the infrastructure in place to sign talent from overseas. I’m sure Dyche would have no problems working with overseas players. It appears that identifying the talent and then undertaking the necessary due diligence is where we fall short.

[Spijed]

Because the big boys then pinch their players !!!

So am I correct in saying then that we have had success because we don't have any overseas players, whereas lower league teams are denied success because they do have some foreign players that are taken by bigger clubs?

[BOYSIE31]

Whether he will get a big job or not we don’t know. But the big club’s have the infrastructure in place to sign talent from overseas. I’m sure Dyche would have no problems working with overseas players. It appears that identifying the talent and then undertaking the necessary due diligence is where we fall short.

yeah maybe i suppose so why cant we then as that was the main point ?

[BOYSIE31]

So am I correct in saying then that we have had success because we don't have any overseas players, whereas lower league teams are denied success because they do have some foreign players that are taken by bigger clubs?

No was about scouting in general

We have tried to sign the same players for 3 years running.

[Chester Perry]

I listened to a podcast last week which said Watford had 35 full-time scouts looking for first team players and staff, including 3 whose sole job was scouting for future managers.

Now I know Watford are the current flavour of the month because of their good start, and I wouldn’t want us to adopt their business model which can be described as chaotic ..... but they are definitely doing some things right.

Doucore, Richarlison, Pereyra, Oghalo, Capoue ..... all signed for peanuts. They’re changing their model too, the vast majority of their recent signings are 24 and under.

I’d be very interested to know just how much resource we dedicate to this field.

A lack of understanding here - Watford owners control a number of clubs with interests in Europe and the Americas (not unlike City - just not on that scale) those scouts and relationships and local understanding work for the group (Watford may pay the bill)

[ClaretTony]

Where's Culverhouse?

????????

[Rileybobs]

yeah maybe i suppose so why cant we then as that was the main point ?

Firstly it is a lot easier to attract overseas players to the top clubs, naturally. It’s probably not a very easy sell to ask an overseas player to emigrate to play for Burnley. But it is also obviously a huge investment to develop an overseas scouting system and one that takes time. It seems like upon establishing ourselves in this division we got the wheels in motion but we’re still some way behind the curve.

Maybe with some more forward thinking we would have made those steps earlier and been in a stronger position in that market - but we are where we are.

[ClaretTony]

I just knew when I read the piece that some would use it as a stick to beat the club with - some on this thread haven't disappointed me.

[Bosna]

I just knew when I read the piece that some would use it as a stick to beat the club with - some on this thread haven't disappointed me.

It's a legitimate concern.

[ClaretTony]

We first got promoted to the big league 9 years ago - no excuses and clubs lower down have better scouting networks
Cannot be that hard to get going.

It's 4 years since we got promoted with Dyche by which time any benefit from having gone up had already gone. Our scouting network then had been seeing players such as Diego Penny, Fernando Guerrero & Dane Richards on a DVD.

Which clubs lower down have better scouting networks?

For me, the reason we have done so well is because of the way Dyche has scouted. It's absolutely key for a club like ours to bring in the right characters. If that work can't be done on a player then we are better off looking elsewhere.

[NottsClaret]

Just on Watford, I know they've found a few bargains abroad - as well as plenty of flops (would we stand for that?) - but in their excellent start to the season a major factor has been getting Deeney and Will Hughes fully fit and motivated.

[Bosna]

It's 4 years since we got promoted with Dyche by which time any benefit from having gone up had already gone. Our scouting network then had been seeing players such as Diego Penny, Fernando Guerrero & Dane Richards on a DVD.

Which clubs lower down have better scouting networks?

For me, the reason we have done so well is because of the way Dyche has scouted. It's absolutely key for a club like ours to bring in the right characters. If that work can't be done on a player then we are better off looking elsewhere.

Bristol City (Kodija, Diedhiou)have recruited well in France. Stoke have signed plenty of successful foreign players in the recent past. Swansea (largely in Spain) as well. Wolves last season.

Other clubs, like PNE and more recently Rovers have signed very good players from the lower leagues.

We tend to sign finished articles from the championship/lower Prem, perhaps because we can, but this is reflected in the average age of our team which I think might be the oldest in the PL. Whilst I wouldn't advocate doing what Rovers and PNE do (because of where we are), I'd imagine their domestic networks are more developed than ours (particularly at youth level).

I agree we need the right characters. But such characters aren't limited to the UK. If our scouting network was more akin to a club at the bottom end of the Prem/top end Championship; we wouldn't be stuck spaffing money on players that are over-valued and over-paid. We have the money now so there really is no excuse and would likely save us money in the long-term.

[ClaretTony]

Just on Watford, I know they've found a few bargains abroad - as well as plenty of flops (would we stand for that?) - but in their excellent start to the season a major factor has been getting Deeney and Will Hughes fully fit and motivated.

Those two have made a big difference to them.


No other club can be compared with Watford though, they are just part of the Pozzo empire of clubs led by Udinese.

[NL Claret]

Bristol City (Kodija, Diedhiou)have recruited well in France. Stoke have signed plenty of successful foreign players in the recent past. Swansea (largely in Spain) as well. Wolves last season.

Other clubs, like PNE and more recently Rovers have signed very good players from the lower leagues.

We tend to sign finished articles from the championship/lower Prem, perhaps because we can, but this is reflected in the average age of our team which I think might be the oldest in the PL. Whilst I wouldn't advocate doing what Rovers and PNE do (because of where we are), I'd imagine their domestic networks are more developed than ours (particularly at youth level).

I agree we need the right characters. But such characters aren't limited to the UK. If our scouting network was more akin to a club at the bottom end of the Prem/top end Championship; we wouldn't be stuck spaffing money on players that are over-valued and over-paid. We have the money now so there really is no excuse and would likely save us money in the long-term.

Couldn't have worked very well for Stoke or Swansea, both were relegated from the PL.

[DCWat]

Fully agree about us bringing in the right characters. Where we are short, as the article states, is being able to apply this requirement to recruitment outside of players based in the UK.

A club like ours certainly needs to be able to lessen the risk associated with signings, by having a certain level of confidence in the character and ability of the players in question.

By the same token, I think it’s fair to question some recent signings in this period (we won’t of course get them all right) and the ‘risks’ that we have taken, when it was apparent to most what the outcome would be. Wells being a prime example. That was always a strange signing, one we’ve benefited from not one jot, and will presumably, ultimately end up costing upwards of at least £6 million.

Developing contacts abroad who can help to facilitate our requirements shouldn’t surely take a further two years, on top of any work that may have gone beforehand. How long has Butterworth been in his UK and International recruitment role, now? We should surely be starting to see some results.

We can talk about limiting risk (albeit with an element of contradiction) but ultimately we are looking in a limited pool which is increasingly expensive to be shopping in.

Was Wells less of a gamble than signing an equivalent from abroad?

It shouldn’t be a one or the other, it’s got to be a balance and one we have to jump on board with quickly.

I’d love to know why it will take a further two years for us to start seeing benefit. I’m sure there is a level of complexity but another two years!?

[Bosna]

Couldn't have worked very well for Stoke or Swansea, both were relegated from the PL.

True, although stoke signed some shockers in England (Wimmer, Berahino) and some belters abroad (N'diaye, Shaqiri). Swansea, until recently, had implemented a style that was similar to a Spanish club and recruited accordingly.

I genuinely feel we are in big trouble this season and if we do go down, questions will be raised about our total dependence on the domestic market and rightly so.

[Rileybobs]

True, although stoke signed some shockers in England (Wimmer, Berahino) and some belters abroad (N'diaye, Shaqiri). Swansea, until recently, had implemented a style that was similar to a Spanish club and recruited accordingly.

I genuinely feel we are in big trouble this season and if we do go down, questions will be raised about our total dependence on the domestic market and rightly so.

Fair enough. But by the same token could you not attribute last season’s recent unparalleled success on our total dependence on the domestic market?

[cricketfieldclarets]

Couldn't have worked very well for Stoke or Swansea, both were relegated from the PL.

As will we be in all liklihood at some point regardless of policy. Three clubs always have to go down.

[Bosna]

Fair enough. But by the same token could you not attribute last season’s recent unparalleled success on our total dependence on the domestic market?

Yeah that's true to an extent, although having a settled side which escaped a serious injury crisis (Brady and Heaton aside) was a big factor. We have recruited well for the most part so I'm not knocking what we have in place. But we could do better and should aim to do so, and expanding what we have into a European market could see us signing good players who fit into the system for less money than similar players in England. Clubs around us and some below are still way ahead of us, and that's worrying.

[Rileybobs]

Yeah that's true to an extent, although having a settled side which escaped a serious injury crisis (Brady and Heaton aside) was a big factor. We have recruited well for the most part so I'm not knocking what we have in place. But we could do better and should aim to do so, and expanding what we have into a European market could see us signing good players who fit into the system for less money than similar players in England. Clubs around us and some below are still way ahead of us, and that's worrying.

I agree. But our recruitment over recent seasons, and that includes our recruitment of the manager and coaching staff, is a huge reason for our recent success so it’s hard to be too critical. Although it becomes easier when we go through a sticky spell.

[Mala591]

How many European scouts do we have? Presumably we have one in each of the main European leagues therefore about six full time scouts?

[DCWat]

I agree. But our recruitment over recent seasons, and that includes our recruitment of the manager and coaching staff, is a huge reason for our recent success so it’s hard to be too critical. Although it becomes easier when we go through a sticky spell.

To be fair, Riley. Recruitment was questioned before a ball was kicked and despite how well we have undoubtedly done on the field.

Squad wise, we’ve pretty much stood still on last season, as a whole. The problem comes when everyone around us takes a step forward and that’s where we need to be able to take advantage of other markets as well, if it helps us to make our more limited resources go further.

[Bosna]

I agree. But our recruitment over recent seasons, and that includes our recruitment of the manager and coaching staff, is a huge reason for our recent success so it’s hard to be too critical. Although it becomes easier when we go through a sticky spell.

Again, true. It's very hard to be critical, except to say that we sometimes lack in creativity and that often leads to returning to previous transfer targets. Some of our recent signings, such as Walters, Wells and Bardsley are absolutely not good enough for the Prem. Equally, Brady, Cork and Wood have been excellent signings. I think we're now in a sticky spell because we're desperately lacking in creativity - an issue that was obvious at the time.

Therefore, there's no harm in extending the potential pool of signings. Financially we can certainly afford it, and as others have said it shouldn't take as long to implement as Dyche says.

As a side note - we don't sign players with much sell-on potential, because we generally sign players in the autumn of their careers. If we were to go down (which I think is a massive probability); such an approach will have repercussions.