I still remember it was pretty much this Board (the one that is so shabby at the moment) that decided they needed to follow Eddie's pzazz football and quality recruitment with a counter balance manager, who is meticulous and organised. So I, unlike it seems pretty much everyone else on here, remain confident this is the best board I've seen in my time watching Burnley, with the best manager I've seen in charge at Burnley, with the club in the best position in world football's consciousness in my lifetime, and with a bank balance that would have bought Lancashire last time we finished so high as in the season just gone. When did we stop enjoying this ride? Just when did we get so serious? When did we go all southern namby pamby? Feels like I'm following bloody Arsenal on here at the moment.

As fans we get frustrated but when the hell did we become the big shots?

As soon as the final whistle sounded at Wembley. Ever since that day good enough has never, it seems, been good enough.

Big shots? People are p1ssed off because we were hammered today when what we needed, club and fans, was a good performance. There would not be so much angst amongst our fans if we had played well and lost. Everyone is worried about where our first 3 points of the season will come from. We were fortunate today - fortunate that it was only 1-0.

It is dire to watch us at present, of that there is no doubt. However, had we stoically held out for a nil, nil, the marks would have been higher and the thoughts more that we are clawing our way back.

We have been short of numbers, having lost Arfield (how we need him instead of Lennon) and Marney. More importantly, we lost Brady and Defour and that's four midfielders gone. We also returned Nkoudou. We signed a keeper, a centre back (needed) and a player alongside a striker.

The Europa was great. However, we chopped and changed, as it replaced our pre-season and have not stopped chopping and changing since. Our usual week in, week out line-up, with one stepping in for injury and you don't see the join, is no longer evident.

A good win and our best team turning out regularly, that's what is required.

Better than 4th division!

Just a tough time. We have had tough times in much worse circumstances. They pass.

Up the Clarets.

Expectations adjust, people who hark on about ‘don’t forget where we’ve come from’, are just as annoying as people who expect us to win the league.

Expectations have risen, and we are currently performing below expectations all things considered.

Billy Balfour wrote:Big shots? People are p1ssed off because we were hammered today when what we needed, club and fans, was a good performance. There would not be so much angst amongst our fans if we had played well and lost. Everyone is worried about where our first 3 points of the season will come from. We were fortunate today - fortunate that it was only 1-0.

How many times have we seen teams cut adrift at this point.... and how many go down? Its frustrating and its bloody awful to watch... and yes on another day Wolves would have been singing of this game in twenty years time. Positive energy is whats required not name calling and finger pointing. Shakespeare and Abe Lincoln knew a thing or two about most things including the Premier League when they said "A house divided cannot stand"

wickdkewlclaret wrote:Expectations adjust, people who hark on about ‘don’t forget where we’ve come from’, are just as annoying as people who expect us to win the league.

Expectations have risen, and we are currently performing below expectations all things considered.

We are fully agreed on that but jumping to conclusions as to why is not solving anything surely? It is up to those whose job it is to sort it, I think we have the people at the club who have earned the right to a decent period of patience. No one is happy right now, but only those on the inside can know why and if its a long term issue. Only then do sackings become any kind of possibility.

elwaclaret wrote:How many times have we seen teams cut adrift at this point.... and how many go down? Its frustrating and its bloody awful to watch... and yes on another day Wolves would have been singing of this game in twenty years time. Positive energy is whats required not name calling and finger pointing. Shakespeare and Abe Lincoln knew a thing or two about most things including the Premier League when they said "A house divided cannot stand"

I agree with most of that. Where we disagree is that I don't think most of our fans have turned into 'big shots'. A good performance today and we would have had something to build on. Unfortunately it was poor and we were lucky not to be going away with a hiding. Also, this game showed us that we are struggling to keep pace with those who will be also-rans come the end of the season.

BTW: I hate talking like this. I'm not the sort of person who rocks up on this message board whinging about next to nothing. I just wish there had been some positives to talk about.

... are what you would expect for a small mill town club who are punching way above their weight. We are at best a mid-table championship side who count a good season as making the playoffs. What we have now is a financially secure football club that remains true to the silent majority of fans values.

Yes, expectations rise and that's a big part of the issue here, but it's an understandable one given the journey we've had over the past 5 years and the all round position the club were in when last season ended. And it's not surprising people get jittery and very, very nervous, even after 5 or 6 games. When a team falls from the PL it's far more often a fall into financial difficulties and almost immediate obscurity. Teams in the PL are the darlings of the world media (even Burnley), everybody outside the PL is basically nobody outside they're own town. Bouncing back from relegation is hard (bordering impossible and is a real lottery) and when we did it we were very much breaking the mould. Just look at last year's PL drop outs and notice they're finding it far from easy to adjust and they're really not battering all comers. The possibility of the journey going sour is bound to get folks fretting because it really is a fine line between being a member of the have's and being simply one of the rest.

Billy Balfour wrote:I agree with most of that. Where we disagree is that I don't think most of our fans have turned into 'big shots'. A good performance today and we would have had something to build on. Unfortunately it was poor and we were lucky not to be going away with a hiding. Also, this game showed us that we are struggling to keep pace with those who will be also-rans come the end of the season.

BTW: I hate talking like this. I'm not the sort of person who rocks up on this message board whinging about next to nothing. I just wish there had been some positives to talk about.

So frustration.... we all feel that. How we process what we saw differs. I saw a team organised and a defence looking more itself after a shaky opening to the season. A saw a quality goalkeeper who is re-finding his feet. For me the most glaring problem was through midfield. There seemed a lack of concentration and energy. That is where SD now needs to turn his attention as he alluded to in his interview tbf.

I've considered this board inadequate for the last ten years. What Dyche has achieved is miraculous, and the standard is set at an average between the last two years, which is nothing to do with the place being an old mill town. It is very clear what is required in the Premier League, and the lack of wealth of our current board is more of a problem in its magnitude than the positive husbandry they've provided as a counter to that assertion

NRC wrote:I've considered this board inadequate for the last ten years. What Dyche has achieved is miraculous, and the standard is set at an average between the last two years, which is nothing to do with the place being an old mill town. It is very clear what is required in the Premier League, and the lack of wealth of our current board is more of a problem in its magnitude than the positive husbandry they've provided as a counter to that assertion

Can you honestly say though that you know if the sort of backing we require has presented itself, and met parameters our board have set to protect the clubs interests (rather than their own)? Because I don't. Until that happens I cannot understand where it is even a discussion.

We need root and branch changes in policy at boardroom level.

It's all very well having money in the bank.

Wages UP
Value of aging squad DOWN
Saleable Assets (the likes of INGS, GRAY, KEANE etc) DOWN
Re-Investment in young players DOWN

We need to stop this direction of travel.

My only expectation was that given the success Dyche has achieved that the board back him as much as possible, right to the sensible limit - they clearly haven't done that and I think that's what a lot of people are ****** off about

Can’t blame the board for the players display . Wolves Stephen hunt interview : “ Burnley lacked desire and commitment and on that display looked doomed to relegation “

The worry for me is that if we were to go down we will carry on dropping through the divisions. This may sound alarmist but if we drop Dyvhe will go. He will leave a squad that does not have much youth in it. Our better players will leave leaving us with a squad of mainly over 30s. The rebuild job then will be massive for whoever comes in and with our boards unwillingness to invest too much in the side we will be cut adrift for years. The board will stop funding the academy to the level we need.

Soon all the money they have squirrelled away will disappear and we will be not much better off than before the journey.

Cleveleys_claret wrote:The worry for me is that if we were to go down we will carry on dropping through the divisions. This may sound alarmist but if we drop Dyvhe will go. He will leave a squad that does not have much youth in it. Our better players will leave leaving us with a squad of mainly over 30s. The rebuild job then will be massive for whoever comes in and with our boards unwillingness to invest too much in the side we will be cut adrift for years. The board will stop funding the academy to the level we need.

Soon all the money they have squirrelled away will disappear and we will be not much better off than before the journey.

You say it sounds alarmist?

No sh1t Sherlock!

Cleveleys_claret wrote:The worry for me is that if we were to go down we will carry on dropping through the divisions. This may sound alarmist but if we drop Dyvhe will go. He will leave a squad that does not have much youth in it. Our better players will leave leaving us with a squad of mainly over 30s. The rebuild job then will be massive for whoever comes in and with our boards unwillingness to invest too much in the side we will be cut adrift for years. The board will stop funding the academy to the level we need.

Soon all the money they have squirrelled away will disappear and we will be not much better off than before the journey.

I dont think we will go down. But if we do we wont have that many players who are too old to be fair.

In fact the majority will be at their peak, especially at that level.

Lowton, Mee, Vokes, Barnes and Cork would hit 30 during that season. But thats not old. And all would be capable of getting us back up again if they stayed.

As bad as it is this season, we definitely have players with the experience, nouse and quality to get us out of the championship again.

I have absolutely no idea why Cleveleys even bothers going to matches to be perfectly honest.

***** sake man, get a hobby you enjoy!

wickdkewlclaret wrote:Expectations adjust, people who hark on about ‘don’t forget where we’ve come from’, are just as annoying as people who expect us to win the league.

Expectations have risen, and we are currently performing below expectations all things considered.

We remember all too well where we've come from, and we'd rather not go back there if its all the same

According to the statos on MOTD this is the worst start for us in the top flight since 1927.
And given how we performed last season in 2018 we are looking very much like WBA in 2016-17 when they finished 10th after having a bad run in 2017 and 2017-18 seasons

Cleveleys_claret wrote:The worry for me is that if we were to go down we will carry on dropping through the divisions. This may sound alarmist but if we drop Dyvhe will go. He will leave a squad that does not have much youth in it. Our better players will leave leaving us with a squad of mainly over 30s. The rebuild job then will be massive for whoever comes in and with our boards unwillingness to invest too much in the side we will be cut adrift for years. The board will stop funding the academy to the level we need.

Soon all the money they have squirrelled away will disappear and we will be not much better off than before the journey.

You may well be right. The team may plummet through the divisions. Certainly the current team.will struggle in the Championship.

Only one way to.secure EPL continuity is outside investment.

elwaclaret wrote:Can you honestly say though that you know if the sort of backing we require has presented itself, and met parameters our board have set to protect the clubs interests (rather than their own)? Because I don't. Until that happens I cannot understand where it is even a discussion.

it was very clear to me, with all the data available, where Premier League football was going, and what that meant for clubs. It was also clear to me that when Flood was appointed it seemed to present as a "next best thing" (to material investment). His statements at the time, and of course the subsequent collapse of his business didn't help matters.

Mike Garlic comes over as a very honest and straightforward man, and his husbandry as a fan is something to be grateful for.... on the one hand..... but on the other, our Board incumbents are relatively encumbered in the wealth suitability for the situation in front of them. it's like they're mooring their 24ft yacht in a marina with 24m moorings.

In reality we need their husbandry together with material investment. Not an easy equation, but not beyond the realm of things

NRC wrote:it was very clear to me, with all the data available, where Premier League football was going, and what that meant for clubs. It was also clear to me that when Flood was appointed it seemed to present as a "next best thing" (to material investment). His statements at the time, and of course the subsequent collapse of his business didn't help matters.

Mike Garlic comes over as a very honest and straightforward man, and his husbandry as a fan is something to be grateful for.... on the one hand..... but on the other, our Board incumbents are relatively encumbered in the wealth suitability for the situation in front of them. it's like they're mooring their 24ft yacht in a marina with 24m moorings.

In reality we need their husbandry together with material investment. Not an easy equation, but not beyond the realm of things

Not arguing your point at all NRC. My point is there are quite a few mumbling about the board and even some idiots calling for them to be sacked. My question is do they know where this investment is? Do they know that the board is closed to such an arrangement? Do they know the next Chairman chosen by these money bags wont be a well meaning fish out of water... a Jackson or a Teasdale? Do people really want a faceless brand Burnley to follow or Burnley Football Club to support?

I suspect many just throw out such comments without any thought of what they might actually want the club to be.

As Confucius said "be careful what you wish for"

For all the talk of being poor yesterday, and against Fulham, sometimes you have to hold up your hand and admit they were better than us.

Great comment yesterday from Craig Bellamy who I have been surprised by with his excellent common sense and understanding of the game. Something along the lines of:

'A fully fit Burnley side who were 'on it' would have struggled against Wolves today'

I agree with him and the much fabled Defour and Brady wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference in my opinion.

wickdkewlclaret wrote:Expectations adjust, people who hark on about ‘don’t forget where we’ve come from’, are just as annoying as people who expect us to win the league.

Expectations have risen, and we are currently performing below expectations all things considered.

Excellent post. You are 100% right. If someone or something (a football club) has come from a humble background it doesn't mean you have to spend the rest of the time being eternally grateful for your rise. Expectations DO rise, if they didn't you would sink back to your humble roots and lose what you have gained. In life, in business, in sport you have to continually keep trying to move forward and 'being grateful' is not part of that mindset. Personally I'm a bit sick of the 'little old Burnley' condescending attitude that people have toward us and which some of our own fans also have, it all reminds me of Wayne's World (we're not worthy).

JohnMac wrote:I agree with him and the much fabled Defour and Brady wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference in my opinion.

Wolves' wage bill is double ours. That's why they won - they can target better players and pay them twice as much as we can.

elwaclaret wrote:So frustration.... we all feel that. How we process what we saw differs. I saw a team organised and a defence looking more itself after a shaky opening to the season. A saw a quality goalkeeper who is re-finding his feet. For me the most glaring problem was through midfield. There seemed a lack of concentration and energy. That is where SD now needs to turn his attention as he alluded to in his interview tbf.

Do you not think the fact that we can't score goals, even last season, is perhaps more of a problem?

Cleveleys_claret wrote:The worry for me is that if we were to go down we will carry on dropping through the divisions. This may sound alarmist but if we drop Dyvhe will go. He will leave a squad that does not have much youth in it. Our better players will leave leaving us with a squad of mainly over 30s. The rebuild job then will be massive for whoever comes in and with our boards unwillingness to invest too much in the side we will be cut adrift for years. The board will stop funding the academy to the level we need.

Soon all the money they have squirrelled away will disappear and we will be not much better off than before the journey.

And I thought I could be a pesimist at times. There's worrying and there's abusing the priviledge. The one thing you forget in your doomsday scenario is we are currently awash with more money than we've ever had and only the badly run clubs relegated from the PL have a hard time. So what if we go down, we can change things accordingly and be a good/great Championship side. I don't want relegation but it doesn't 'worry' me in the least.

houseboy wrote:Do you not think the fact that we can't score goals, even last season, is perhaps more of a problem?

No I don't see scoring goals as a problem at all. It is creating the chances that needs addressing. That is done manly by sorting the midfield

Stayingup wrote:You may well be right. The team may plummet through the divisions. Certainly the current team.will struggle in the Championship.

On what basis? Mee, Barnes, Vokes, Westwood, Hendrick, Wood, Vydra, Lowton, Ward, Taylor, Heaton, Brady have all had a lot of success in the Championship, and most of them have won promotion from there at least once.

Cork, Hart and Lennon haven't played much Championship football, and Pope and Gudmondsson haven't had much success there. Are they the ones you're doubting?

Stayingup wrote:You may well be right. The team may plummet through the divisions. Certainly the current team.will struggle in the Championship.

Only one way to.secure EPL continuity is outside investment.

Name one player, just one in our team that ISN'T good enough for the Championship?

You can't!

Spijed wrote:Name one player, just one in our team that ISN'T good enough for the Championship?

You can't!

Just to put a slightly different slant on it. If we went down but retained our full squad, would you expect an immediate return, or would you think we needed to invest a bit?

DCWat wrote:Just to put a slightly different slant on it. If we went down but retained our full squad, would you expect an immediate return, or would you think we needed to invest a bit?

No investment needed. Look at Cardiff - finished second on 90 pts.

Also use us for an example. When we went on the 23 match unbeaten run it was more down to organisation and belief than anything else, wasn't it?

Thing weren't going well after the defeat to Hull, but tweaking the system was all that was required.

Obviously spending is nice to perhaps freshen things up, but as it stands, all the players are good enough to get us back up.

elwaclaret wrote:No I don't see scoring goals as a problem at all. It is creating the chances that needs addressing. That is done manly by sorting the midfield

Football is about goals and we averaged less than 1 per game last season in what was considered to be a good season - and you don't see that as a problem? Even with Defour and Brady playing well and when the team was doing great we still weren't scoring really. If we only buy one player in the next window it HAS to be a decent PL class stiker, we can't keep soaking up pressure and expecting to get the results, in fact we haven't been doing that for 9 months. This is not a recent and short term problem, we've been sh!ite for a long time.

Who has got a decent PL class striker, who scores at least ten in a season?

I mean, we've only got three of them for starters........

houseboy wrote:we've been sh!ite for a long time.

I love this

houseboy wrote:Football is about goals and we averaged less than 1 per game last season in what was considered to be a good season - and you don't see that as a problem? Even with Defour and Brady playing well and when the team was doing great we still weren't scoring really. If we only buy one player in the next window it HAS to be a decent PL class stiker, we can't keep soaking up pressure and expecting to get the results, in fact we haven't been doing that for 9 months. This is not a recent and short term problem, we've been sh!ite for a long time.

Wood and Barnes got 19 goals between them last season (and Vokes chipped in with 4), which is a decent return. Apart from the top six, I doubt many other teams' forwards scored many more than that.

The reason we don't score many goals is not enough goals from midfield.

ClaretTony wrote:I love this

I aim to please mate. Actually I don't really but if I can then that is a good thing. This board is fun, I wish some wouldn't run it down so much, I've been on a lot worse.

Tall Paul wrote:The reason we don't score many goals is not enough goals from midfield.

Long time since we had someone who could be considered a goalscoring midfielder.

Tall Paul wrote:Wood and Barnes got 19 goals between them last season (and Vokes chipped in with 4), which is a decent return. Apart from the top six, I doubt many other teams' forwards scored many more than that.

The reason we don't score many goals is not enough goals from midfield.

Wood didn't do too badly considering his injury lay-off I would agree but he lacks consistancy. Barnes is NOT a PL striker, he may be okay as a second striker but not as a main one, he just bullies defenders but his skill level leaves a lot to be desired. Vokes needs air supply to be best effective. We have no-one with the skill and pace to open up a defence. And I don't think a return of 19 goals from two (yes 2) strikers is good. We were one of the lowest scorers in the division last season (without double checking only relegated teams scored less - forgive me if I'm wrong) so if other teams strikers did no better they must have had a lot chipping in from other areas.
I've been watching Burnley and football in general for over 50 years (pipe and slippers time) but the lack of goals at the moment is causing me more concern than I can ever remember. The defence did their job amazingly well last season and were the single most important factor in what was a great season (well first half anyway) but it is now time for the strikers to step up or be shipped out for something better.

Everyone knew Wolves have put together a strong attacking team as their current position shows. So have Bournemouth so I expect another difficult weekend ahead. But the wins will come and lets hope they start soon.

ClaretTony wrote:Long time since we had someone who could be considered a goalscoring midfielder.

It's not necessarily a goalscoring midfielder we're lacking, none of our midfielders have scored more than two goals in the last two seasons. Five or so from two or three of them would make a big difference and wouldn't be unreasonable to hope for.

houseboy wrote:if other teams strikers did no better they must have had a lot chipping in from other areas.

That's exactly what they had.

Strikers for clubs outside the top six who scored more PL goals than Chris Wood last season:
Vardy
Murray (inc loads of pens)

End of list.

houseboy wrote:Football is about goals and we averaged less than 1 per game last season in what was considered to be a good season - and you don't see that as a problem? Even with Defour and Brady playing well and when the team was doing great we still weren't scoring really. If we only buy one player in the next window it HAS to be a decent PL class stiker, we can't keep soaking up pressure and expecting to get the results, in fact we haven't been doing that for 9 months. This is not a recent and short term problem, we've been sh!ite for a long time.

Im not sure we need an out and out goalscorer but somebody with pace. We’re far to easy to defend against. PL defences don’t get bullied easily. That’s evidently clear with Wood playing so to Barnes who throws himself to the deck everytime it comes close. Look at Bournemouth with King and Wilson up top. Not big goalscorers in this league but they scare defences and pull them apart with pace and power. Leave gaps for the likes of Fraser to run into.

Tall Paul wrote:It's not necessarily a goalscoring midfielder we're lacking, none of our midfielders have scored more than two goals in the last two seasons. Five or so from two or three of them would make a big difference and wouldn't be unreasonable to hope for.



That's exactly what they had.

Strikers for clubs outside the top six who scored more PL goals than Chris Wood last season:
Vardy
Murray (inc loads of pens)

End of list.

Seriously? That's surprised me somewhat. Well done mate, it's not often someone shuts me up but I'll concede that one now. Ha ha. So we need creative and forward looking midfielders then.

Dyched wrote:Im not sure we need an out and out goalscorer but somebody with pace. We’re far to easy to defend against. PL defences don’t get bullied easily. That’s evidently clear with Wood playing so to Barnes who throws himself to the deck everytime it comes close. Look at Bournemouth with King and Wilson up top. Not big goalscorers in this league but they scare defences and pull them apart with pace and power. Leave gaps for the likes of Fraser to run into.

I'd agree with all that mate. It's just been pointed out to me that only two strikers outside the big six scored more goals than Wood and Barnes last season, a surprising statistic, if so it would appear that we need more input from midfield. Is the fact that they haven't been doing so down to the players or Dyche's style? In teams where midfield contribute a lot it is normally down to, among other things, strikers dragging defenders out of position, as you so rightly point out, but again as you say we need someone with pace to do that and alas our strikers, whatever else they are, are not pacey, far from it. There needs to be a serious look at the way we do things and it may even be that another pacey striker is needed to do the job you say. Would Gray have helped in that respect and do we need someone like him (but with more commitment and a little more awareness of what is going on around him). There's nothing much wrong with us normally (when the defence aren't sulking, which I believe they are over the Europa affair) that scoring more goals wouldn't put right. The other thing is when (how long is a piece of string) we get Defour and Brady back they CAN score goals, mainly from free kicks, but they all count.

dsr wrote:On what basis? Mee, Barnes, Vokes, Westwood, Hendrick, Wood, Vydra, Lowton, Ward, Taylor, Heaton, Brady have all had a lot of success in the Championship, and most of them have won promotion from there at least once.

Cork, Hart and Lennon haven't played much Championship football, and Pope and Gudmondsson haven't had much success there. Are they the ones you're doubting?

but how many would be here ??????

Tall Paul wrote:Wood and Barnes got 19 goals between them last season (and Vokes chipped in with 4), which is a decent return. Apart from the top six, I doubt many other teams' forwards scored many more than that.

The reason we don't score many goals is not enough goals from midfield.

Vokes chipped in with 4), which is a decent return - really ??????

LoveCurryPies wrote:Everyone knew Wolves have put together a strong attacking team as their current position shows. So have Bournemouth so I expect another difficult weekend ahead. But the wins will come and lets hope they start soon.

So answer his question - why not us ????