Labour betray their leave voters..

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fidelcastro
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by fidelcastro » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:05 pm

IanMcL wrote:I am a Labour supporter not a fan of Mr Wishy-Washy, who is best left to pantomime.
Who should be leader, Ian?

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by IanMcL » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:20 pm

The country is bereft of leaders

nil_desperandum
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:30 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:Is anyone foolish enough to think that Theresa May will be fighting the next election as Tory leader? Many assumptions being based on that.
This has nothing to do with who leads which party into the next General Election, which most likely won't be any time soon.
It's to do with what will / could be Labour official policy in the crucial months ahead.
Basically, if TM fails to make a meaningful deal, resulting in a Parliamentary vote on "No deal" then a Labour amendment for a "People's Vote " would almost certainly be carried.
A significant number of Tory remainers in strongly remain constituencies, (led by Ken Clarke, Nikki Morgan, Heidi Allen etc.) would feel able to vote for this since whilst it would stop a cliff-edge brexit, it wouldn't lead to a general Election and risk putting Corbyn into immediate power.
The big question for Labour of course is whether it would translate to votes at the next election, but a calculated gamble might be that if there is a "People's Vote" the Tory Party will divide bitterly and not recover for years.
(It's all interesting speculation of course).

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by fidelcastro » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:53 pm

IanMcL wrote:The country is bereft of leaders
Yet the membership of the Party has surged since Corbyn became leader... funny that.
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Woodleyclaret » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:54 pm

This Labour voter wants Corbyn out.Hes a useless fool who gets sucked in to discussing trivia of little interest to voters.Whats his stance on homelessness.Zero hours contracts .Privatisation of the rail network and actual affordable mortgages.
His stance on Brexit,foreign aid and immigration controls are way out of touch with voters.
Labour will never win an election with him in powe this is despite the Tories led by the most inept PM since Tory Jim Callaghan.And whats his aversion to wearing a tie.He not betraying the working class by looking like a guy who been on the lash.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by IanMcL » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:57 pm

fidelcastro wrote:Yet the membership of the Party has surged since Corbyn became leader... funny that.
...and yet despite the worst government since the Major government, he remains unlike in the country st large and has failed to lead the party to an unassailable lead in the polls.

In Sean Dyche speak, he overthinks everything, to the point of deciding nothing...."Let's leave it to the members" is a phrase that on the face of it is a welcome to democratic process in a party and yet is impossible in the wider context of leading a nation.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by fidelcastro » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:58 pm

Woodleyclaret wrote:This Labour voter wants Corbyn out.Hes a useless fool who gets sucked in to discussing trivia of little interest to voters.Whats his stance on homelessness.Zero hours contracts .Privatisation of the rail network and actual affordable mortgages.
His stance on Brexit,foreign aid and immigration controls are way out of touch with voters.
Labour will never win an election with him in powe this is despite the Tories led by the most inept PM since Tory Jim Callaghan.And whats his aversion to wearing a tie.He not betraying the working class by looking like a guy who been on the lash.
I'm pleased to say you're in the minority of Labour voters. :roll:

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:05 pm

There may have been a minority voting Leave and Labour but the core Labour voters would have been a huge majority (if I was guessing, 60%). The young (who will in time get older and may vote differently) and the hyper-liberal (who may tend to swing between Labour, Greens and the Lib Dem’s) would have been huge Remain percentage which dramatically affected the overall figure. Traditionally, Thatcher was great at getting the “white van man” and skilled manual labour vote - that is the risk to Labour now.

So for the first time in my life I will say Len McClusky is right and Labour have to be very mindful of alienating this core vote by ensuring that any People’s Vote is between May’s eventual deal and no deal (the latter being temporary WTO terms and back to the negotiating drawing board).

It’ll be, yet again, a fun week.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by If it be your will » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:59 pm

.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Stayingup » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:09 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Tories tend to have longer periods in power than Labour, so it's entirely possible.
With a bit of luck for a century. Of course we could have a terrorist loving anti British old twerp as PM and be subservient to Germany and France. You'd like that e.g.?

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Stayingup » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:12 pm

fidelcastro wrote:Yet the membership of the Party has surged since Corbyn became leader... funny that.
You think.its funny? Like your namesake a communist plonker. Probably like you. Corbyn is a total idiot and anti British. He's a middle class millionaire. Grow up and learn something.
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by fidelcastro » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:18 pm

Stayingup wrote:You think.its funny? Like your namesake a communist plonker. Probably like you. Corbyn is a total idiot and anti British. He's a middle class millionaire. Grow up and learn something.
How patronizing are you?

Calling him communist and anti-British is as lazy and infantile as it gets.

:roll:

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by dermotdermot » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:00 pm

Corbyn is a simply a complete and utter subversive. He’s been festering away on the back benches for god knows how long voting against everything that his government proposed even though he was happy to draw a substantial wage under the guise of being a labour mp. He sided with the IRA, supports Arab terrorists, hates Jews, lies through his back teeth, in short an absolute scumbag. I can’t believe that the Labour Party have been so stupid as to have let him come to power. They should have realised that there was a strong possibility of this happening after Miliband changed the rules to let these ‘members’ have the vote in the election process. What a shambles. You won’t get rid of him now. He would have to be shot. He will stay and do his utmost to impose his ideological totalitarian state on the country. I actually hate him more than any other politician, if you can call him that, throughout history and that includes one Margaret Thatcher who was a pussycat compared to him.
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by BennyD » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:22 pm

He was brought into power by the crazy hard left who had been marginalised by society in general. He is merely a convenient body to get labour elected. He would then be told what to say and when to say it and eventually will be sacked in favour of a more hard liner. The only people who are being fooled are the sort that would vote for a pig with a red rosette.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Spijed » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:30 pm

dermotdermot wrote:Corbyn is a simply a complete and utter subversive. He’s been festering away on the back benches for god knows how long voting against everything that his government proposed even though he was happy to draw a substantial wage under the guise of being a labour mp. He sided with the IRA, supports Arab terrorists, hates Jews, lies through his back teeth, in short an absolute scumbag. I can’t believe that the Labour Party have been so stupid as to have let him come to power. They should have realised that there was a strong possibility of this happening after Miliband changed the rules to let these ‘members’ have the vote in the election process. What a shambles. You won’t get rid of him now. He would have to be shot. He will stay and do his utmost to impose his ideological totalitarian state on the country. I actually hate him more than any other politician, if you can call him that, throughout history and includes one Margaret Thatcher who was a pussycat compared to him.
Did he support the IRA, or help bring peace by speaking to them?

Let's face it, without negotiation with the IRA and agreeing to some of their terms, we would probably have seen hundreds, if not thousands more deaths - both here and in Northern Ireland.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by dermotdermot » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:40 pm

Spijed wrote:Did he support the IRA, or help bring peace by speaking to them?

Let's face it, without negotiation with the IRA and agreeing to some of their terms, we would probably have seen hundreds, if not thousands more deaths - both here and in Northern Ireland.

Are you for real? Do you actually think that he had anything to do with the peace process? You could tell that he was lying when questioned as to whether he voted for it at the last election debates. Of course he voted against it. His agenda was to support the IRA kill British civilians and soldiers in the same way that he encourages Arabs to kill Jews. Peace loving, my arse.
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by BleedingClaret » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:55 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:"A referendum result can be irrevocable or it can be democratic, but it cannot be both."
Clever, but if it's never carried out then democracy wasn't seen to ve done.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Damo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:59 pm

fidelcastro wrote:Yet the membership of the Party has surged since Corbyn became leader... funny that.
You sound just like him. Apt username too

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:00 pm

Not mine, just a quote from a lawyer.

He; completely right btw, and you can say whatever you want but a referendum can be irrevocable or it can be democratic, it cannot be both.

So lets stop the idea that a 2nd referendum would be undemocratic, to talk of not having one because its not democratic is as totalitarian as it gets.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Greenmile » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:09 pm

dermotdermot wrote:Corbyn is a simply a complete and utter subversive. He’s been festering away on the back benches for god knows how long voting against everything that his government proposed even though he was happy to draw a substantial wage under the guise of being a labour mp. He sided with the IRA, supports Arab terrorists, hates Jews, lies through his back teeth, in short an absolute scumbag. I can’t believe that the Labour Party have been so stupid as to have let him come to power. They should have realised that there was a strong possibility of this happening after Miliband changed the rules to let these ‘members’ have the vote in the election process. What a shambles. You won’t get rid of him now. He would have to be shot. He will stay and do his utmost to impose his ideological totalitarian state on the country. I actually hate him more than any other politician, if you can call him that, throughout history and includes one Margaret Thatcher who was a pussycat compared to him.
Peak Daily Mail reader.
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:15 pm

I'm no fan of Corbyn, but listening and making policy from its members is actually what the Lib Dems do.

Its quite sensible to be honest, though if your members are batshit mental (like UKIPs appear to have turned into!) it might have some drawbacks.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by dermotdermot » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:18 pm

The ‘members’ are batshit mental.
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:24 pm

Certainly the Lib Dem membership has lost the plot a bit recently!

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Damo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:24 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm no fan of Corbyn, but listening and making policy from its members is actually what the Lib Dems do.

Its quite sensible to be honest, though if your members are batshit mental (like UKIPs appear to have turned into!) it might have some drawbacks.
"I'm no fan of Corbyn" is the new "I'm not racist but"
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Damo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:26 pm

IMG_20180923_212533.jpg
IMG_20180923_212533.jpg (103.82 KiB) Viewed 2556 times

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:26 pm

Hahaha!

Yeah, probably

Ok, I think he's potentially a disaster but I do like the idea of the members having a vote on policy
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Damo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:33 pm

Corbynistas currently calling ed Miliband a Tory haha. Absolutely bat **** momMental

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:35 pm

Corbynistas on twitter are really hard work it has to be said.

Not the ones who have some clout, but the ones who relentless troll anyone who disagrees with them, or even mention that the Dear Leader might have a flaw.
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by dsr » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:12 pm

bfcmik wrote:"the EU aren't making it easy, if this is not enough proof that leaving was the right thing to do not sure what is." - We are not being prevented from leaving. What we are trying to achieve is to leave whilst retaining the trade and access privileges without any of the bits we don't like. A bit like being a member of a private club then leaving but saying, "It's OK if I still come here and use the bar and snooker table though, isn't it?"
No and no and no. There is a very widespread belief that we are asking for dree trade with Europe while offering nothing in retuien. This isn't true. We are asking for free trade with the EU and offering the EU free trade with the UK. This is advantageous to the EU in that the EU exports £80 billion more to the UK than the UK exports to the EU, because under WTO rules as they stand, we will gain by about £8bn tariffs p.a. - this has been offered in a trade to the EU. But the EU knows that relatively speaking, the loss of trade to the EU is a lower proportion of their trade than the equivalent loss to the UK, so in the interests of ideological purity, it is worth taking the hit in reduced wealth in the hope that other nations risking an outbreak of democracy will not do anything so foolish. As many of the Remain supporters on here have suggested, exercises in democracy are not supported by the EU in case of getting a wrong answer.

It's more like being in a private club and saying "is it OK if I use the bar and snooker table and your members can continue to use my swimming pool".

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by dsr » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:19 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:The figure that is generally given is that 65% of Labour voters voted remain and 35% to leave, but 40% is not miles away from this.
Worth bearing in mind too that this is based on 2015 Gen Election voters, and that since then a lot of young people have joined the electoral roll, and a large majority of this group are both Pro-remain and leaning towards Labour, so I think it's fair to conclude that the vast majority of Labour - potential - voters, along with the Unions would not be opposed to a "People's Vote"

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It may be that nationally 35% of Labour voters voted Remain, but if so, there is a heavy skew between the traditional Labour heartland voters in the north, and the "non-traditional" rest of the party. Because if only 35% of Labour supporters in Burnley, for example, voted for Brexit, then the figures don't add up.

In the general election, 46.7% of the voters voted Labour. If 65% of them voted Remain, that means that in the referendum, Remain scored 30.4% purely from Labour supporters (46.7% x 65%). But Remain only scored 33.4% in total, so that means that 94.4% of the rest of the voters - including liberals - voted Brexit. That didn't happen.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by BurnleyFC » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:23 pm

Corbyn betrays his own country, so it’s hardly surprising that he’d betray some of his voters.
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:42 pm

Greenmile wrote:Peak Daily Mail reader.
Peak free pressaphobe.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by aggi » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:56 pm

I'll try and find it but I read a study recently which reckoned that there were only a few seats at risk from Labour supporting Remain/A second referendum (can't remember which) and they would pick up more from voters switching to them

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:17 am

aggi wrote:I'll try and find it but I read a study recently which reckoned that there were only a few seats at risk from Labour supporting Remain/A second referendum (can't remember which) and they would pick up more from voters switching to them
Save yourself the trouble aggi.

I reckon the majority of posters will be able to get a good night's sleep without your contribution.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:28 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Peak free pressaphobe.
What 'free' press is that? It's along the lines of PRAVDA in this country. Eighty-seven percent of readers get their news from titles owned by billionaire (or in the case of the Daily Mail, a seven-hundred-odd-millionaire) owners. And strangely enough they all report the 'news' the same way. Press freedom is an illusion in this country.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:32 am

AndrewJB wrote:What 'free' press is that.
The one that reflects the opinions of millions that don't happen to share the same world view as you.

Get over yourself

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by dsr » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:43 am

AndrewJB wrote:What 'free' press is that? It's along the lines of PRAVDA in this country. Eighty-seven percent of readers get their news from titles owned by billionaire (or in the case of the Daily Mail, a seven-hundred-odd-millionaire) owners. And strangely enough they all report the 'news' the same way. Press freedom is an illusion in this country.
You've made that mistake before. Obviously you would be wasting your time in saying that the Morning Star can't be published, because clearly it can and is; so instead you argue that the press isn't free because no-one wants to read it.

How exactly would you make the press freer? Would you do it by forcing it to write what you want it to write? Or would you do it by restricting the publication of the papers you don't like and making people read only what you approve of? Or by making it compulsory to read your chosen papers, with punishments for those that don't?

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:46 am

Only tolerating views you agree with is not tolerance.....

It's just self-reinforcement.......

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:51 am

Damo wrote:
IMG_20180923_212533.jpg
Posting this picture says a great deal more about you than it does about politics, or anything else. What was the person saying? What was your point? Just mocking someone for the way they look, while censoring their voice? You didn't add a comment, so it's got no context in that respect too.
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:23 am

dsr wrote:You've made that mistake before. Obviously you would be wasting your time in saying that the Morning Star can't be published, because clearly it can and is; so instead you argue that the press isn't free because no-one wants to read it.

How exactly would you make the press freer? Would you do it by forcing it to write what you want it to write? Or would you do it by restricting the publication of the papers you don't like and making people read only what you approve of? Or by making it compulsory to read your chosen papers, with punishments for those that don't?
Your suggestions are all rather illiberal, so no. The problem I've touched on is most of the press is owned by extremely rich people, and reflects their views. The press is not 'free' if it is controlled like this. So the question comes down to who owns the press. What if the readership did, and voted in editors? Or a trust owned it? Or it was owned by its workers? I think any of these would be better than being owned by a billionaire.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:26 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:The one that reflects the opinions of millions that don't happen to share the same world view as you.

Get over yourself
Reflects, or informs? Don't be a sheep.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by dsr » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:30 am

AndrewJB wrote:Your suggestions are all rather illiberal, so no. The problem I've touched on is most of the press is owned by extremely rich people, and reflects their views. The press is not 'free' if it is controlled like this. So the question comes down to who owns the press. What if the readership did, and voted in editors? Or a trust owned it? Or it was owned by its workers? I think any of these would be better than being owned by a billionaire.
Go ahead. All those options are legal and could be set up in an instant by anyone who wants to, so if your complaint about press freedom is that not enough people are doing that, I don't see what anyone can do about it.

You literally do not know what "free press" means. A free press is one where anyone can run a newspaper. If the people who exercise that option aren't the ones you would have chosen, that doesn't mean it's not a free press.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:44 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Only tolerating views you agree with is not tolerance.....

It's just self-reinforcement.......
Tell that to the billionaire owners of newspapers in this country.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:14 am

dsr wrote:Go ahead. All those options are legal and could be set up in an instant by anyone who wants to, so if your complaint about press freedom is that not enough people are doing that, I don't see what anyone can do about it.

You literally do not know what "free press" means. A free press is one where anyone can run a newspaper. If the people who exercise that option aren't the ones you would have chosen, that doesn't mean it's not a free press.
You have no idea what a truly free press is. It should be free of government intervention, yes. But it should also be free of billionaire owner intervention too! Otherwise they are just propaganda organs for the owners. What is freedom from government control, when you still have corporate control?

Let's talk about a real free press with no government or corporate control.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by burnleymik » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:38 am

dsr wrote:
It's more like being in a private club and saying "is it OK if I use the bar and snooker table and your members can continue to use my swimming pool".

Let's just add that we are also major shareholders in that club and paid more than our fair share into it's infrastructure. :)

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:31 am

burnleymik wrote:Let's just add that we are also major shareholders in that club and paid more than our fair share into it's infrastructure. :)
You can't be a 'major shareholder' in a democratic organisation. One member, one vote. As for what we paid in, we are a net contributor because we're richer. The government at the time would have done the maths, and worked out that it was to Britain's benefit to join.

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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by Guich » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:50 am

I think it's rather sad what has happened to the Labour party at a time when we could do with a credible opposition.
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by levraiclaret » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:04 am

AndrewJB wrote:You can't be a 'major shareholder' in a democratic organisation. One member, one vote. As for what we paid in, we are a net contributor because we're richer. The government at the time would have done the maths, and worked out that it was to Britain's benefit to join.
is the UK richer than France?
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by JohnMcGreal » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:43 am

Change the thread title to 'Labour betray their remain voters'

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/09 ... -stitch-up" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Labour betray their leave voters..

Post by jlup1980 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:08 pm

"I respect the referendum," he said, "We lost we have to respect that. It was a democratic decision. That's it. We'll be arguing that it should be a vote on the deal itself and then enabling us to go back and redo the negotiations"

I don't agree with the "enabling us to go back and redo the negotiations" part as it's clearly a grab for power, but I agree in essence with what John McDonnell is saying.

Firstly, we can't have another referendum - that's not even an option. Absolutely. I'm a Remainer and even I know that much. We can't have another referendum because it would set a frightening precedent. Where would we go next if Remain won? Best of three maybe?! The only thing it would do is create a greater sense of civil unrest in the UK.

However, what we should do is ask people whether they're happy with a no deal. I'm sticking my neck on the line here but I don't think many Leave voters voted for where we are now; on the precipice of a decision that would mean we break away from the EU without any transition period at all. I don't think anyone really wants this do they? We need to ensure there's at least the semblance of stability when we Leave and that's not the case at present.
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