Has Dyche Burned Out

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:49 pm

houseboy wrote:Good reply, thank you.

For what it's worth what is happening is not all Dyche's fault and I'm not really just blaming the manager, just wondering if he can get us out of it. He's been unlucky with injuries and the lack of investment in the Summer is almost certainly more down to the board than him.

I really do hope he turns it round because I like him very much but regardless of his ability, which is beyond question normally, I still cannot forgive the Europa fiasco and I never will and as I have have said before is the players response to being dropped a lack of motivation after striving to get us there, speaking personally it would seriously cheese me off if I were them.

Why is it more the boards fault than Dyches ref summer investment?
We got a recent PL winner with 75 England caps.
We got a well regarded CB.
We got what appears to be a decent number 10 style player.
We shipped out some deadwood.

Did you expect us to spend £50 million?
We've missed out on some players due to unrealistic valuations or wage demands, big deal, so do a lot of other clubs or have you failed to notice that one?

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:50 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Why is it more the boards fault than Dyches ref summer investment?
We got a recent PL winner with 75 England caps.
We got a well regarded CB.
We got what appears to be a decent number 10 style player.
We shipped out some deadwood.

Did you expect us to spend £50 million?
We've missed out on some players due to unrealistic valuations or wage demands, big deal, so do a lot of other clubs or have you failed to notice that one?

We also failed to replace positions where we let the deadwood go from and didn’t get anybody in to cover the injuries we knew we had.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:50 pm

bfccrazy wrote:He can get a good morale going which is evident but I feel for individual games and getting players pumped up he isn’t as good as others.

Based on what?

What are you seeing that virtually no one else is?

Does he need to run around more on the touch line waving his arms around?

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:53 pm

bfccrazy wrote:We also failed to replace positions where we let the deadwood go from and didn’t get anybody in to cover the injuries we knew we had.

We have a squad limit of 25.

We also have players who can play in more than one position.
Marney - Hendrick is a CM, we have Cork, Westwood and Defour.
Arfield - we have wingers, 4 of them in fact, we also have CM's and a player who can now sit in the hole.

We have pretty much two players for every position as a minimum due to versatility.

As for the injuries, Defour and Heaton are back, Brady nearly back.
Have we missed anyone out?

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:54 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Based on what?

What are you seeing that virtually no one else is?

Does he need to run around more on the touch line waving his arms around?

Based on the fact that whenever we have the scrappy games or the big games there is a feeling usually that we’ll scrape through and get something. Even last night a lot of people had that nightly feeling that we wouldn’t win and then there wasn’t Ward pulling out of tackles etc ...

The morale at the club is brilliant but maybe it’s the longer we’re in the prem and less the “underdogs” that is affecting how much the players “run through walls” and can be up for games.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:56 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:We have a squad limit of 25.

We also have players who can play in more than one position.
Marney - Hendrick is a CM, we have Cork, Westwood and Defour.
Arfield - we have wingers, 4 of them in fact, we also have CM's and a player who can now sit in the hole.

We have pretty much two players for every position as a minimum due to versatility.

As for the injuries, Defour and Heaton are back, Brady nearly back.
Have we missed anyone out?

So we play Hendrick at no10 (as per start of the season) and have Westwood and Cork in .... who else plays CM off the bench?

Why did we play McNeil if we have 4 wingers?.... we used Defour on the wing in the past too so it was obviously an area that could do with strengthening.

The keeper was brought in through necessity - if Heaton and Pope were fit, Joe Hart wouldn’t be here.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:12 pm

piston broke wrote:No. He’s doing his best for the club by prioritising the PL.
Baby steps. Slow growth is better than a burned out shooting star.
He has performed a miracle with the standard of player he has at his disposal.
Apart from the keepers how many of the rest would PL clubs be calling up for?

The players he has at his disposal. That is a key phrase. Most are Championship standard and how he lifted them to achieve a 7th place finish last season is all credit to him and his staff. Ex players say that. He can and does of course improve players. Also he has lost top quality players in Austin, Ings, Trippier , Gray and Keane
(for us he was anyway), without replacing most of them like for like.

He plays a style not always pleasing on the eye but suited to the players available.

There have been mistakes. No midfielder in this summer for example. It has to be said that last night's result was dreadful and in my opinion he did not select the right team

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:14 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:I think 5 years is a very long time in football. He has been the greatest manager in my lifetime and has enabled us as a club to be secure for many years to come. Hopefully able to attract good young players and become a little self sufficient.

The problem is during that time the football in general has been pretty gash. The football in the Championship was good and we played some fantastic football whilst keeping strong at the back with the goal of promotion always in the players minds. The football in the Prem is workmanlike and devoid of ideas many times. Yes we have had fantastic results but still usjally they have been back to the wall performances.

We had

Now that we are losing and playing the same boring football fans are going to turn on Dyche. I know Bournemouth was a fantastic performance but it is not the norm. People say its the plastics but my dad is 66 and has been watching Burnley for 56 of them years. He praises Dyche but doesnt enjoy watching the football served up anymore and now is not bothered about missing a game here and there now as it is so uninspiring. Didnt miss Bournemouth though which was a lucky call from him

Generally we had better players when we last played in the Championship.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:19 pm

Goodclaret wrote:Absolutely no chance that SD has done all he can for us. Fortunately, he understands the slow build process required to be long time successful. It probably has worked against him by having such an unbelievable season last season due to (unrealistically) raising expectations. We are still new, as SD is, to the PL. Throwing in Europe (another whole new experience) too, coupled with injuries to key, attacking players, has made the start to this season difficult. Maybe he should have stuck with a settled team for all games so far but only SD and the physio's etc can truly assess whether that is the correct thing to do. SD will have learnt a lot already this season and it may change his thoughts if the same scenario happens in the future, who knows?

To answer a couple more of your questions:

Has he gone stale - I don't think so. He is far too focused and professional to let that happen.
Bad apples - I very much doubt that. Taking Mee, for example, the guy is just struggling with a little bit of form, as are a few players - it doesn't mean he's unhappy or causing problems
Squad rotation - maybe SD has struggled to balance the rotation but his success has been based on settled teams so it is new to him.
Throw away cup games - I don't believe he does - the team he put out, for example, last night should have been enough to beat Burton. I am also not blind to the fact we haven't done well in cup games and would love a cup run but still don't believe games are "thrown"
Can he turn it around - course he can - no doubt in my mind at all. He is a fantastic manager who will get even better with us

Not really. The very poor result last night has spawned this conversation.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:32 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:Yes we have had fantastic results but still usjally they have been back to the wall performances.

That is simply not true. We allow the opposition much more of the ball, but they generally don't hurt us that much. That's why we are usually so good at defending leads. The Wolves performance was very much out of character. Normally, we allow the opposition very few 'good' attempts on goal so it isn't really 'backs to the walls' stuff. They might have the ball on the edges of our box, but when we defend well our goalkeeper tends to make routine saves. Bournemouth, for example, had one good chance in the second half. The rest were fairly routine stops by Joe Hart.

Nonayforever · Post by **Nonayforever** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:05 pm

Do I think Dyche has ' burnt out ' ?

Well maybe.

It has already been pointed out that we have progressed and overachieved during the last 5 years.
This summer he and Ian Woan must have sat down and discussed where they were heading for this season.
We may not have brought many fresh faces in, but you can bet your bottom dollar that the board successfully held on to many of our player's from other clubs offers.
With this in mind, it was always going to get harder just to stay still.
Many people will realise that you can get bogged down with the present and not see the future. You run out of ideas, plans don't go according to plan, you chop and change trying different methods to get back on plan, fans and media start to interfere, things can and do unravel.
It takes a strong manager and management team to stay focused and achieve their aims.
I hope we have that man.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:38 pm

Goodclaret wrote:I think you're burnt out Dyched. I'd give the messageboard a miss if I was you - oh yes, you will, when we start winning again.

Burnt out?? Im in my prime son

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:39 pm

houseboy wrote:Prioritising the PL is the problem - we are never going to win it so why don't we try harder in those competitions where we at least have a chance? The PL is not the start and end of football and as a club we should be striving to win things where possible, not just surving in a competition that pays a lot of money - we're a football club not a bank.
And I would say that Defour, JBG, Tarks, Mee and Brady would make most teams in the PL.

Why we have such a dismissive attitude to the cups is baffling,when the players look back on their careers do they reminiscence about surviving in the Premier League,or do they remember big events like cup finals and winners medals.

What really irks is Sean highlighted the mindset of the players,you have to question their hunger if they can't get up for a winnable tie against League 1 opponents,and a reasonable chance of progressing a fair way in this competition,seemingly the money train of the Premier League rules supreme.

I wonder how much such an attitude influenced Scott Arfield's decision to join Rangers,OK! it's only the Scottish League,but at least in Scotland he has a shout at winning trophies and having something to display after he retires.

And for all those worrying about our top flight status,no-one is suggesting swapping a trophy for avoiding relegation,but surely this squad could have managed another 2 games before the new year.If we had qualified for the Europa League then i would understand being so laissez faire about the domestic cups but we didn't.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:52 pm

tiger76 wrote:Why we have such a dismissive attitude to the cups is baffling,when the players look back on their careers do they reminiscence about surviving in the Premier League,or do they remember big events like cup finals and winners medals.

What really irks is Sean highlighted the mindset of the players,you have to question their hunger if they can't get up for a winnable tie against League 1
opponents,and a reasonable chance of progressing a fair way in this competition,seemingly the money train of the Premier League rules supreme.

I wonder how much such an attitude influenced Scott Arfield's decision to join Rangers,OK! it's only the Scottish League,but at least in Scotland he has a shout at winning trophies and having something to display after he retires.

And for all those worrying about our top flight status,no-one is suggesting swapping a trophy for avoiding relegation,but surely this squad could have managed another 2 games before the new year.If we had qualified for the Europa League then i would understand being so laissez faire about the domestic cups but we didn't.

Excellent post. The bit I ponder is where the line is drawn in his head. Presumably if we were in the League Cup Final we would go for it. There is little money for it (apparently the key issue), but we would go for it anyway. What is the round where that happens? Final? Semi? Quarters? I genuinely don’t know (and to be frank, don’t expect to ever find out under Sean). It gets galling when you spend a grand to go to a big away cup match (Athens in my case) and some reserve defenders get picked who then implode under the pressure.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:04 am

The Europa i can forgive to an extent,we battled hard to earn a play-off spot,and Olympiakos are no mugs,besides the somewhat strange half time incident with the officials clearly impacted on the 2nd half,we played well in the home leg,sadly unlike the Bournemouth game we fluffed our chances

Even with the 6 changes last night,that combination should have had enough talent and organisation to beat a mediocre League 1 team,even more galling we scored at the ideal time,all the 2nd half required was game management.

Sure you can argue that Ash on another day scores instead of hitting the woodwork,but equally Burton could have netted a third goal also.

As we now have a clear league schedule for the next 3 months,i expect a drastic improvement in performances and results.

If we are still near or in the bottom 3 come January,questions will quite rightly be asked of the management.

That doesn't mean Sean should be pushed,but if the priority of staying in the Premier League is threatened after jettisoning all other competitions,you wonder what the sacrifices are in aid of.

Turftalkers mentor · Post by **Turftalkers mentor** » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:38 am

"Has Dyche burned out " definitely not . Seems to me that since we get improved gates in the Premiership most of the critics on this board are the newer fans who have only "supported" the club since we became successful. Sure it's a challenging season it always will be in the Premiership but get real and enjoy the challenge and more importantly back the finest manager we have had in a long while

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:03 am

Houseboy claims he is just asking a question, yet disagrees with everyone who tells him no.

Why not just be honest and state your position on Dyche.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:54 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Why is it more the boards fault than Dyches ref summer investment?
We got a recent PL winner with 75 England caps.
We got a well regarded CB.
We got what appears to be a decent number 10 style player.
We shipped out some deadwood.

Did you expect us to spend £50 million?
We've missed out on some players due to unrealistic valuations or wage demands, big deal, so do a lot of other clubs or have you failed to notice that one?

Great post mate.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:09 pm

Three pages on this, just stop it now

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:21 pm

bfccrazy wrote:So we play Hendrick at no10 (as per start of the season) and have Westwood and Cork in .... who else plays CM off the bench?

Why did we play McNeil if we have 4 wingers?.... we used Defour on the wing in the past too so it was obviously an area that could do with strengthening.

The keeper was brought in through necessity - if Heaton and Pope were fit, Joe Hart wouldn’t be here.

McNeil is one of those 4 wingers

Lennon, Brady and JBG being the other 3.

Off the bench for CM?
We can put someone else up front and drop Hendrick back into Midfield if needed, that's what we can do whilst waiting for players to recover from injury.

You're correct about the goalies, however to go out and sign a massively experienced keeper so cheaply is a fair coup, especially as he's doing a good job for us, which many people, including myself, didn't expect to happen.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:24 pm

Stayingup wrote:The players he has at his disposal. That is a key phrase. Most are Championship standard and how he lifted them to achieve a 7th place finish last season is all credit to him and his staff. Ex players say that. He can and does of course improve players. Also he has lost top quality players in Austin, Ings, Trippier , Gray and Keane
(for us he was anyway), without replacing most of them like for like.

He plays a style not always pleasing on the eye but suited to the players available.

There have been mistakes. No midfielder in this summer for example. It has to be said that last night's result was dreadful and in my opinion he did not select the right team

Most are championship standard?
It will take me a while to tot up the number of PL appearances they've made, but I think you're being harsh saying that most are championship standard.

RalphCoatesComb · Post by **RalphCoatesComb** » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:45 pm

In Sean Dyche we trust !

You could always go for Steve Keane, well known about these parts

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:46 pm

Time is up for Sean sadly. Thanks for the memories but please collect your belongings.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:49 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Most are championship standard?
It will take me a while to tot up the number of PL appearances they've made, but I think you're being harsh saying that most are championship standard.

We may find out if they are championship standard next season.
I guess the truth is that they are the best we can afford.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:50 pm

I still think he is a great manager, but he has to be prepared to change things up and I fear whilst we keep collecting points, no matter how we get them, he won't change.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:50 pm

He will never get another PL job, he's had 5 years to play better football and if anything it's getting worse

Granny WeatherWax · Post by **Granny WeatherWax** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:50 pm

Dychenosuar

THEWELLERNUT70 · Post by **THEWELLERNUT70** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:51 pm

Unless they are a complete freak (Ferguson, Wenger) most managers have a finite shelf life at a single club. Perhaps Sean is approaching his. Something needs to rapidly change as we have been consistently very very poor this season

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:53 pm

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote:Unless they are a complete freak (Ferguson, Wenger) most managers have a finite shelf life at a single club. Perhaps Sean is approaching his. Something needs to rapidly change as we have been consistently very very poor this season

Would go as far as to say this year!!!!

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:10 pm

Keep in mind of course, that there were players he wanted which the board wouldn't sanction.

They play their part as well. The board are clearly, and understandably thinking what if/when we go down, they don't want everything to blow up and drop down to League 1, so they're keeping money back just in case. But if SD had allowed to sign his targets, I'm sure we wouldn't be as weak as we currently are.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:23 pm

I wonder, are some of our longer serving players burned out?
What has happened to our (once) exemplary closing down, our pressing, and our fantastically organised back four?

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:23 pm

oops, posted twice

Gnulty · Post by **Gnulty** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:28 pm

Europa league, small squad, injuries, mid-table and getting points we don't deserve, tells me that Dyche is a long way from burning out.. In times like these, he's on fire!

PutTheWheelieBinsOut · Post by **PutTheWheelieBinsOut** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:58 pm

We desperately need a director of football. Someone with knowledge and experience that can oversee a new world wide scouting system, manage transfers and the youth set up. We need to take Dyche and Garlick out of the decision making in these areas as soon as possible because they both lack experience and their talents are better employed elsewhere within the club.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:22 pm

We are Burnley

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:26 pm

boatshed bill wrote:I wonder, are some of our longer serving players burned out?
What has happened to our (once) exemplary closing down, our pressing, and our fantastically organised back four?

We do seem to be lacking a real leader.

ClaretAL · Post by **ClaretAL** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:27 pm

minds legs spirit?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:32 pm

The tide has turned I'm afraid with a lot of supporters. I have always wanted better football than Dyche plays but his results have always outweighed it.
Dyche fans were ranting about him and his crap football after the game in the pub. Saying time to go.
The poor entertainment, the lack of a plan, no changes to win it and only Huddersfield trying to win it at the end.

Longsidebogs · Post by **Longsidebogs** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:09 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:The tide has turned I'm afraid with a lot of supporters. I have always wanted better football than Dyche plays but his results have always outweighed it.
Dyche fans were ranting about him and his crap football after the game in the pub. Saying time to go.
The poor entertainment, the lack of a plan, no changes to win it and only Huddersfield trying to win it at the end.

This^^^^^

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:20 pm

The last few seasons the turgid football has been tolerable because it resulted in either winning the Championship or qualifying for Europe. This season it looks like we're attempting to play this way to finish 17th and I don't think it will wash.

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:27 pm

I have always said has long as we get results the fans would tolerate Dyche ball, but once the results turn so will the fans.
It looks like Sean is running out of ideas with the limited resources at his disposal

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:31 pm

Maybe our players are tired and fed up with being asked to play Dycheball every week? I don't care what anyone says we have good players who are capable of playing football if they were allowed to.

Nonayforever · Post by **Nonayforever** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:32 pm

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the tide has indeed turned.
Players such as Barnes aren't at their peak anymore.
The back 5 not working as a single unit. New players such as Wood not fitting in within the framework. Lennon very lightweight compared to Scotty.
And the most serious of all - Dyche completely out of ideas.

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:52 pm

boatshed bill wrote:I wonder, are some of our longer serving players burned out?
What has happened to our (once) exemplary closing down, our pressing, and our fantastically organised back four?

Other than Ben Mee’s chronic loss of form, I don’t really see a problem with that side of the game. Huddersfield had 70% possession first half today, yet Hart hadnt had a save to make.
It’s the creative side that missing, and the ability to string a few passes together.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:53 pm

People just want a bit of entertainment. I think people are holding out hope for Defour and Brady because, to be fair, we played some bloody good football the first half of last season (the Everton goal wasn’t a one off in passages of play). We resorted to booting it when Defour got injured, and have stayed the same since.

I don’t want rid of Dyche, and I think a change would destabilise us during a season, but things have to change. The board need to be brave in January and spend some money on quality. We need some pace as our breaks must be some of the slowest in the top flight, always allowing defenders to set themselves.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:59 am

Vegas Claret wrote:He will never get another PL job, he's had 5 years to play better football and if anything it's getting worse

You're a proper drama queen aren't you?

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:15 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:You're a proper drama queen aren't you?

so rather than having the intelligence to respond with the reasons you disagree with my points you turn to personal abuse, whoops

Turftalkers mentor · Post by **Turftalkers mentor** » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:31 pm

Continuity is the secret to success in this game .NO he hasnt burnt out .

Culmclaret · Post by **Culmclaret** » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:56 pm

Not burned out but facing the challenge of moving from Dyche 4.5 to Dyche 5.0 having achieved as much as he can here last season. This could be his hardest task yet because the ‘framework’ doesn’t work any more and he does not have the players at the moment to keep us in step with the tactical advances being made elsewhere

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:08 pm

We've scored more goals than half the teams in the PL.

Edit it's actually 9 teams. But only 7 sides have conceded less.

So for all this 'dire' football we are still doing fine.