Peoples Vote

[burnleymik]

I've stopped making points on here with people who say the only reason this has gone on for two years is because the government is weak in its negotiations.

There genuinely is nothing I can say to people who ignore every real reason for the problems, while inventing mythical ones as the reason we are going nowhere.

For the nth time, the government is trying to negotiate the Brexit you were promised by the people who promised absolutely ******* everything. They should have just said free blow jobs for all, it would have been just as realistic.

There are always going to be losers in a referendum. they don't lose their rights to protest, vote and do whatever they want. they didn't in 1975 and people still kept the flame of leaving alive, and they won't in 2018. To expect them to is as undemocratic as it gets.

Real reasons.. You know that if the government wanted to deal properly with the EU and vice versa most of these issues would have been ironed out.

To pretend anything else is just utter rubbish.

All the scaremongering problems could have been worked out. Two years to put in place and find a solution to the NI border. Two years to sort out what would happen at Dover etc.

About time you were honest LC. Ringo has pointed out your lies many times.

You have never accepted the result, despite how you pretend your views have changed. You are as closed minded as you accuse Brexit supporters on here of being.

[RingoMcCartney]

More undemocratic is enacting something the public doesn't want. And what's worse is that you know this which is why you're opposed to a referendum making sure the UK still wants to leave on the terms available.

The only opinion poll that matters and counts is the one that you lost.

[Imploding Turtle]

The only opinion poll that matters and counts is the one that you lost.

So why are you so afraid of a vote on the final deal?

[RingoMcCartney]

Real reasons.. You know that if the government wanted to deal properly with the EU and vice versa most of these issues would have been ironed out.

To pretend anything else is just utter rubbish.

All the scaremongering problems could have been worked out. Two years to put in place and find a solution to the NI border. Two years to sort out what would happen at Dover etc.

About time you were honest LC. Ringo has pointed out your lies many times.

You have never accepted the result, despite how you pretend your views have changed. You are as closed minded as you accuse Brexit supporters on here of being.

What I find fascinating, is the presumptive arrogance Remoaners display, when they love to sermonize that, they know the reason what leave voters were voting for, more than Leave voters themselves did!!

[Damo]

The only people who wanted the 2016 referendum were a small percentage of the public. For most people Europe was a minor issue and nothing more. It was made a major issue by the fact of the referendum, which was foisted upon a largely unwilling public, and once underway was inescapable.

A lot more support for a second referendum than the first one, and nothing wrong with another expression of democracy. If remain wins a second vote I’d be happy to have a third if the public mood changes again.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/04/15/he ... tant-issu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

72% of the electorate turned out to vote in the referendum. That's hardly a small percentage of the public is it?

[Imploding Turtle]

72% of the electorate turned out to vote in the referendum. That's hardly a small percentage of the public is it?

You have to be particularly stupid to think that only those who voted in the referendum are the ones who wanted it.

[RingoMcCartney]

So why are you so afraid of a vote on the final deal?

I've been here before.

No I'm not afraid of a vote on the final deal.

So if it's on the final deal and respects the referendum result.

The 2 questions on the ballot paper should be.

1 do you want to leave the EU with the deal negotiated by her Majesty's government?

2 do you want to leave the EU on WTO rules?

The result still stands. You get your precious vote on a deal.

Everybody's happy.

APART FROM THOSE WHO CAN'T ACCEPT THEY LOST.

Now as you know I prefer not to engage with idiots as I find they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

So your allotted time is over.

[Damo]

You have to be particularly stupid to think that only those who voted in the referendum are the ones who wanted it.

And even more stupid to imply that's what I said.

[Imploding Turtle]

I've been here before.

No I'm not afraid of a vote on the final deal.

So if it's on the final deal and respects the referendum result.

The 2 questions on the ballot paper should be.

1 do you want to leave the EU with the deal negotiated by her Majesty's government?

2 do you want to leave the EU on WTO rules?

The result still stands. You get your precious vote on a deal.

Everybody's happy.

APART FROM THOSE WHO CAN'T ACCEPT THEY LOST.

Now as you know I prefer not to engage with idiots as I find they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

So your allotted time is over.

See? You're afraid that the public have changed their mind, or that a majority would rather remain than leave with no deal.

As everyone expected, you're a complete fraud.

[Damo]

Why would anyone, particularly remainers want a vote on the final deal when the alternative would be no deal anyway?

[Imploding Turtle]

And even more stupid to imply that's what I said.

I'm going to have to walk you through this one, aren't I?

OK. Someone else said that only a small percentage of people wanted the referendum. You then cited that the 72% of people who voted in it wasn't a small percentage. Therefore you're implying that the people who wanted the referendum and the people who voted in it are the same people.

[Jakubclaret]

Lots of leavers already feel betrayed with having any sort of deal anywhere, hard brexiteers wanted a complete cut out, & now any talk of peoples vote/2nd referendum (hard to separate the two) is quite frankly insulting & is rubbing salt into the wounds. People voted completely in or completely out no halfway deals, that’s what some thought the whole idea was meant to be about.

[Damo]

I'm going to have to walk you through this one, aren't I?

OK. Someone else said that only a small percentage of people wanted the referendum. You then cited that the 72% of people who voted in it wasn't a small percentage. Therefore you're implying that the people who wanted the referendum and the people who voted in it are the same people.

Well 34% of the electorate voted to leave, so I'm guessing they all wanted a referendum.
Even if they are the only people who wanted the referendum, then one third of the entire, voting age population of the UK is hardly a small percent of people is it?

[Imploding Turtle]

Well 34% of the electorate voted to leave, so I'm guessing they all wanted a referendum.
Even if they are the only people who wanted the referendum, then one third of the entire, voting age population of the UK is hardly a small percent of people is it?

That's a better argument.

[Imploding Turtle]

Lots of leavers already feel betrayed with having any sort of deal anywhere, hard brexiteers wanted a complete cut out, & now any talk of peoples vote/2nd referendum (hard to separate the two) is quite frankly insulting & is rubbing salt into the wounds. People voted completely in or completely out no halfway deals, that’s what some thought the whole idea was meant to be about.

**** their feelings. I only want done what the majority of us want done, and if some pathetic babies think that making sure what we're about to do, based on the deal we're about to get/not get is actually what we want, is in some way a betrayal then that's for them to deal with. The bloody snowflakes.

There is no good argument against finding our whether we want the deal, no deal, or to remain. If a majority still want us to leave then that majority will vote for us to leave again, but this time we'll actually know what kind of Brexit they want.

[Jakubclaret]

**** their feelings. I only want done what the majority of us want done, and if some pathetic babies think that making sure what we're about to do, based on the deal we're about to get/not get is actually what we want, is in some way a betrayal then that's for them to deal with. The bloody snowflakes.

There is no good argument against finding our whether we want the deal, no deal, or to remain. If a majority still want us to leave then that majority will vote for us to leave again, but this time we'll actually know what kind of Brexit they want.

I think you’ve missed out on what happened on the 23rd June 2016, the decision has already been reached, it feels like lots of ifs buts & maybes are now being brought into the mix. You seem to be suggesting remain is 1 option of a 3. Damn right people will feel they’ve been betrayed people have already decided & a decision has been reached.

[Damo]

Remain won't be an option. Any vote will be deal or no deal.
Hardcore Brexiteers want no deal don't they?
Would of thought remainers were keen on getting some kind of arrangement

[Sproggy]

There won't be a 2nd referendum. You'll all have to wait for the next general election and go big on the Lib Dems.

[South West Claret.]

So 65 odd posts later and still no one has put up a credible answer as to why we should not have “the first informed referendum” on staying or leaving Europe. Hardly surprising given there isn’t one... about 178 days to go now.

[Jakubclaret]

Remain won't be an option. Any vote will be deal or no deal.
Hardcore Brexiteers want no deal don't they?
Would of thought remainers were keen on getting some kind of arrangement

Any deal focused on reducing net migration would be the favourite.

[ClaretAndJew]

Nothing will happen.

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

So 65 odd posts later and still no one has put up a credible answer as to why we should not have “the first informed referendum” on staying or leaving Europe. Hardly surprising given there isn’t one... about 178 days to go now.

How can it be any more informed than last time? When no one has any idea of the deal.
The chances of a no deal are being blown up by both the remain and leave sides, but interestingly the EU are always saying they expect to agree a deal.
How can we have a referendum when we are trying to negotiate a deal?
No country has ever left the EU before, so no one really knows what will happen, so there still will be information supplied by both sides in any future referendum will be unreliable at best and probably mostly lies.

The only way to have an informed referendum would be to have one thats conducted after the deal is done or after we leave. Then we can see for ourselves accurately what being outside of the EU means compared to being inside the EU. So the only sensible future referendum would be one that decides to rejoin the EU or not. It will probably take at least 10 years before we can properly assess the consequences of leaving the EU.

So we should leave it 10 years so we can have a fully informed referendum. #FACTSandEVIDENCE

[burnleymik]

So 65 odd posts later and still no one has put up a credible answer as to why we should not have “the first informed referendum” on staying or leaving Europe. Hardly surprising given there isn’t one... about 178 days to go now.

"informed", incredibly disingenuous.

What you actually mean is let's try again to see if we can get a remain vote this time.

[burnleymik]

How can it be any more informed than last time? When no one has any idea of the deal.
The chances of a no deal are being blown up by both the remain and leave sides, but interestingly the EU are always saying they expect to agree a deal.
How can we have a referendum when we are trying to negotiate a deal?
No country has ever left the EU before, so no one really knows what will happen, so there still will be information supplied by both sides in any future referendum will be unreliable at best and probably mostly lies.

The only way to have an informed referendum would be to have one thats conducted after the deal is done or after we leave. Then we can see for ourselves accurately what being outside of the EU means compared to being inside the EU. So the only sensible future referendum would be one that decides to rejoin the EU or not. It will probably take at least 10 years before we can properly assess the consequences of leaving the EU.

So we should leave it 10 years so we can have a fully informed referendum. #FACTSandEVIDENCE

Absolutely agree.

The only way we can actually be "informed" is if we give Brexit a try for a period of time. This is what the aim should have been all along.

[Bin Ont Turf]

Need to wait the 40 odd years we have had to for another vote.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not sure we can cope with 40 years of this!

Bottom line is there isn't a need for a vote if the deal is acceptable to the majority of MPs and acceptable to a sizeable majority of the voting public.

Course, the latest polls suggest 79% of leavers are happy to see Scotland independent and for Ireland to be back in the troubles as long as they get their brexit. I'm not fussed about Scotland, but anyone who thinks Brexit is worth actual real lives being lost again in Ireland has my universal, total and utter contempt.

[JohnMcGreal]

I'm not sure we can cope with 40 years of this!

Bottom line is there isn't a need for a vote if the deal is acceptable to the majority of MPs and acceptable to a sizeable majority of the voting public.

Course, the latest polls suggest 79% of leavers are happy to see Scotland independent and for Ireland to be back in the troubles as long as they get their brexit. I'm not fussed about Scotland, but anyone who thinks Brexit is worth actual real lives being lost again in Ireland has my universal, total and utter contempt.

Those people are political extremists and it's high time they were treated as such. We shouldn't be taking their views seriously at all, frankly.

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

Yes the political extremists that would force Ireland to build fixed border controls on the Ireland side of the Northern Ireland border. They would risk the peace of the whole of Ireland just to satisfy their own political ideology. Yes those political extremists in Brussels are the ones i'm talking about.

[Imploding Turtle]

Yes the political extremists that would force Ireland to build fixed border controls on the Ireland side of the Northern Ireland border. They would risk the peace of the whole of Ireland just to satisfy their own political ideology. Yes those political extremists in Brussels are the ones i'm talking about.

So having borders is political extremism now, is it?

[Damo]

I don't get it.
There is a plan in place to prevent a hard border in Ireland, yet some of you remainers want an oppertunity to veto that plan by having a vote on the final deal?
I'm starting to think the extremist remainers actually want no deal.
Talk about cutting your nose of to spite your face. Junkerphiles

[Imploding Turtle]

I don't get it.
There is a plan in place to prevent a hard border in Ireland, yet some of you remainers want an oppertunity to veto that plan by having a vote on the final deal?
I'm starting to think the extremist remainers actually want no deal.
Talk about cutting your nose of to spite your face. Junkerphiles

Why do you think we would vote to veto it? Do you think Remainers are going to vote for no deal? Of course not. That would be your lots choice.

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

So having borders is political extremism now, is it?

So your in favour of Trump's wall then I presume, interesting!

[Imploding Turtle]

So your in favour of Trump's wall then I presume, interesting!

I don't give a **** about the wall. If I was american i'd oppose it because it's a waste of money and won't do anything. But what has that got to do with anything?

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

I don't give a **** about the wall. If I was american i'd oppose it because it's a waste of money and won't do anything. But what has that got to do with anything?

So if Trump builds a wall, you say if your an American you would oppose it. But if your beloved EU tells Ireland to build border controls (a wall) in Ireland, you have no problem with that even if building that structure were the catalyst for further troubles and loss of life.

And you call Brexiteers extremists??

[Imploding Turtle]

So if Trump builds a wall, you say if your an American you would oppose it. But if your beloved EU tells Ireland to build border controls (a wall) in Ireland, you have no problem with that even if building that structure were the catalyst for further troubles and loss of life.

And you call Brexiteers extremists??

Is the EU going to be telling Ireland to build a wall? Or are you just making **** up to make yourself feel better about your pathetic argument?

[Imploding Turtle]

Also, do you notice what you're doing? You're using the threat of sectarian violence to frighten people into giving you what you want.
I remember when the mere possibility of an emergency budget was enough to cause cries of "Project Fear!" from you people.

I think we all know who the real fearmongers are.

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

Also, do you notice what you're doing? You're using the threat of sectarian violence to frighten people into giving you what you want.
I remember when the mere possibility of an emergency budget was enough to cause cries of "Project Fear!" from you people.

I think we all know who the real fearmongers are.

At last your correct with something we both can agree on, we do know who the real fearmongers are:

I'm not fussed about Scotland, but anyone who thinks Brexit is worth actual real lives being lost again in Ireland has my universal, total and utter contempt.

[Imploding Turtle]

At last your correct with something we both can agree on, we do know who the real fearmongers are:

You can't make up your mind what position to take, can you?

You: The EU are going to enforce a hard border bringing with it sectarian violence.
Also you: You Remainers are scaremongering over a hard border and sectarian violence killing people.

You're so ******* pathetic.

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

Everytime Turtle you just implode when your arguments are ripped to bits and when you do implode, all you have left is name calling. You never fail to disappoint. It's really really sad to be honest, it's the same cycle over and over again.

If you can't be a grown up and enter into civil debate without name calling and being abusive, (what was it again, oh yeah "You're so ******* pathetic" not the most mature comment?) it maybe best if you call it quits, saves you embarrassing yourself.

But lets take a moment to examine your other comments?

You: The EU are going to enforce a hard border bringing with it sectarian violence.
Also you: You Remainers are scaremongering over a hard border and sectarian violence killing people.

So whats the common denominator of both statements? The Leavers are actually saying neither. It's the EU and the Remainers that are scaremongering, not the leavers. Thank you for helping me demonstrate this.

[Lancasterclaret]

Nice selective quoting there Puthewheeliebinout.

Its astonishing just how many leavers (ie people like you) who appear to think Brexit worth breaking up the UK AND the end of the Good Friday Agreement.

Not me scaremongering, just a poll conducted yesterday and reported just about everywhere.

You must have missed it*

*not for the first time

[Lancasterclaret]

Anyway, after the initial optimism of last week about a deal , the specific issues beginning to emerge

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1049386948689825792" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[claretonthecoast1882]

Nice selective quoting there Puthewheeliebinout.

Its astonishing just how many leavers (ie people like you) who appear to think Brexit worth breaking up the UK AND the end of the Good Friday Agreement.

Not me scaremongering, just a poll conducted yesterday and reported just about everywhere.

You must have missed it*

*not for the first time

You can't really be surprised that a lot people are bored with the odious Sturgeon and her non stop whinging about being victims. I couldn't give 2 ***** about Scotland and if it wants to go alone then just go, it's like when someone announces they aren't posting on here anymore, nobody cares get on with it and go.

Nobody wants the troubles to return, but again comes down to compromises between people.

[Lancasterclaret]

Being annoyed at Sturgeon is one thing, but to the level where it means that we break up the UK?

Thats a hell of a step, especially for members of the "Conservative and Unionist Party" - completely unthinkable two years ago to be honest (not from their side obviously, but from ours)

Its a been a fairly amicable and ridiculously successful union for about 300 years when its all said and done (thats the Eng-Scottish one btw, as NI is a completely different gravy!)

And regarding compromises in NI - that is what the GFA is, and guess who were the only people to vote against it? - the DUP

Not only are they are bunch of god fearing creationists, they are quite happy to see a return to hard borders and people dying in NI rather than accept some checks between mainland UK and NI? - thats not a compromise, thats just mental and the only reason they have any traction is because the Conservatives wanting to remain in government so much they overlooked the fact that they were dealing with a bunch of religous, dogmatic fruitcakes.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Being annoyed at Sturgeon is one thing, but to the level where it means that we break up the UK?

Thats a hell of a step, especially for members of the "Conservative and Unionist Party" - completely unthinkable two years ago to be honest (not from their side obviously, but from ours)

Its a been a fairly amicable and ridiculously successful union for about 300 years when its all said and done (thats the Eng-Scottish one btw, as NI is a completely different gravy!)

And regarding compromises in NI - that is what the GFA is, and guess who were the only people to vote against it? - the DUP

Not only are they are bunch of god fearing creationists, they are quite happy to see a return to hard borders and people dying in NI rather than accept some checks between mainland UK and NI? - thats not a compromise, thats just mental and the only reason they have any traction is because the Conservatives wanting to remain in government so much they overlooked the fact that they were dealing with a bunch of religous, dogmatic fruitcakes.

It isn't us who are trying to break anything up though with Scotland, it is her craze for independence.

The DUP in an ideal world wouldn't exist, but they do. That is a part of why when they got a share in power and people found amusement in the fact the tories had to deal with them going forward I struggled seeing anything to laugh at.

[Lancasterclaret]

Well no, because the poll conducted yesterday suggests Brexit is more important than the Union. Thats not backing the union at all and gives loads of ammunition for Sturgeons independence campaign.

If Brexit is the most important thing to people to that level of commitment, then its absolutely crazy.*

* I do appreciate (sadly) that there are a lot of people in the side of Brexit who believe everything will be fine and go back to normal when we leave, they are the ones who will say its worth it because they don't believe it will happen, just like they won't believe that anything that is pointed out to them about what will. Again, this is very dangerous because they are the sort of people who will react the worst when it all actually happens.

Agree fully on the DUP, but at a time like this they are slightly behind the Nazis or Mordor as the worst possible coalition partners for the UK government. They have never been in this position before for exactly that reason. They just add another complication into the mix that we don't need as a country at the moment.

[AndrewJB]

72% of the electorate turned out to vote in the referendum. That's hardly a small percentage of the public is it?

I voted in the referendum, yet I'm part of the larger percentage of the population who didn't want it in the first place.

Before the referendum the EU hardly rated as an issue.

[Damo]

Before the referendum the EU hardly rated as an issue.

It was an issue.
It was the reason of the surge in numbers of people who got behind Farage and UKIP.
It was the reason the Tories put it into their manifesto and the reason Cameron went begging for a better deal and his ultimate demise.
Maybe you just didn't notice at the time

[Jakubclaret]

It was an issue.
It was the reason of the surge in numbers of people who got behind Farage and UKIP.
It was the reason the Tories put it into their manifesto and the reason Cameron went begging for a better deal and his ultimate demise.
Maybe you just didn't notice at the time

It doesnt' take Einstein to work that out, I was absolutely staggered at the comment & the lack of understanding.

[Imploding Turtle]

Everytime Turtle you just implode when your arguments are ripped to bits and when you do implode, all you have left is name calling. You never fail to disappoint. It's really really sad to be honest, it's the same cycle over and over again.

If you can't be a grown up and enter into civil debate without name calling and being abusive, (what was it again, oh yeah "You're so ******* pathetic" not the most mature comment?) it maybe best if you call it quits, saves you embarrassing yourself.

But lets take a moment to examine your other comments?



So whats the common denominator of both statements? The Leavers are actually saying neither. It's the EU and the Remainers that are scaremongering, not the leavers. Thank you for helping me demonstrate this.

It's pretty funny that you accuse me of always resorting to name calling. I guess this little back and forth between you and I must be, by pure chance, the only time i've not resorted to it.

[CrosspoolClarets]

So 65 odd posts later and still no one has put up a credible answer as to why we should not have “the first informed referendum” on staying or leaving Europe. Hardly surprising given there isn’t one... about 178 days to go now.

There are many credible answers, many on this thread, but Remainers shut their eyes, whistle a little tune, and pretend not to see them (a bit like the claims that Leave voters didn't know what they were voting for, despite polls showing 80% want migration controlled, for a start, which is quite a clear statement of knowledge and intent).

Answers include because the 2nd referendum would be no more informed than the first, because it would rip the country apart (no, it isn't apart now, it is bruised, that's different), because voters cannot be expected to understand the minutiae of trade deals (most won't even of heard of a backstop), because there hasn't been a major shift to Remain in the polls, because Leave won and deserve to have that vote enacted, because the pre-referendum forecast has been proven to be wrong so we can't vote based on any better evidence, because we need to get back to a domestic agenda ASAP.

That's 7 answers. You asked for 1. They are all credible.