Peoples Vote

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:49 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Funny how you claim to know, then when it turns out that you are demonstrably wrong your argument becomes "we'll never know".

How can you be sure as remain never won, nobody knows, I’m pretty sure I’ve said night to you twice tonight, you don’t seem to be 1 for taking hints. Night. Technically 3 now.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:09 pm

LoveCurryPies wrote:Because, having listened to 2 years of debate in the media and observing the Brexit negotiations, we are perhaps now better informed than we were for the first vote.

Hi LCP, I don't intend this to be a comment about you personally, but after reading many of the comments on this thread I couldn't argue that any of us are any better informed about anything connected with the UK and our relationships with the EU27 and the rest of the world, whatever the outcome of the Brexit negotiations.

And, I think the same can be said about the debate in the media, etc, etc, etc. It's nearly all just been two years of emotional stuff, "you are wrong," "I believe this..." "this won't go right...." and so on.

I know the electoral commission would advise only two questions on a referendum - however, maybe everyone should be required to answer 10 qualifying questions, that will demonstrate their knowledge of the issues and then only those who achieved a reasonable pass mark, let's say 7 out of 10 correct, would have their actual vote counted.

It would be fun to set the10 questions...

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:11 pm

LoveCurryPies wrote:Because, having listened to 2 years of debate in the media and observing the Brexit negotiations, we are perhaps now better informed than we were for the first vote.

..and we actually have Brexit and give it 5 years people will be even more informed, from both sides of the argument. Maybe you should make a case for a vote then?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:15 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I started this thread in good faith that even though the obvious thing to do in everybody's interests is to scrap this whole Brexit fiasco that now there is enough support for a peoples vote even I will support it (the result is a foregone conclusion now we are far more informed and I dont see why we need to waste more time and money to land at the inevitable conclusion)

The only people against this seems to be the brainwashed thick pillocks of which we see a fair few in Burnley and on this board. They can bleat on about the arrogance of "intelligent remoaners" like me who like to look at facts and reality but in truth these idiots are just irrelevant extremists whose voices will thankfully soon be long forgotten

I am happy to be entertained by their babyish nonsense on here safe in the knowledge in the real world common sense and humanity will prevail

Its attitudes like this that helped to bring about Brexit.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:18 pm

On referendum night BEFORE the results had come in, Paddy Ashdown made a solemn promise to the British public:

“I will forgive no one who does not respect the sovereign voice of the British people once it has spoken, whether it is a majority of one per cent or 20 per cent.

When the British people have spoken you do what they command. Either you believe in democracy or you don’t.”

https://youtu.be/-Bv_1z2lFlw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:19 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:"intelligent remoaners" like me

Despite all the arguments and debates our PM (however terrible she might be) has stood firm and outright stated there will be no second referendum on leaving or remaining in the EU, no people's vote, no second chance. She understands how damaging that would be to British democracy.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:24 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I started this thread in good faith that even though the obvious thing to do in everybody's interests is to scrap this whole Brexit fiasco that now there is enough support for a peoples vote even I will support it (the result is a foregone conclusion now we are far more informed and I dont see why we need to waste more time and money to land at the inevitable conclusion)

The only people against this seems to be the brainwashed thick pillocks of which we see a fair few in Burnley and on this board. They can bleat on about the arrogance of "intelligent remoaners" like me who like to look at facts and reality but in truth these idiots are just irrelevant extremists whose voices will thankfully soon be long forgotten

I am happy to be entertained by their babyish nonsense on here safe in the knowledge in the real world common sense and humanity will prevail

Which side are you actually on? Are you a Brexit fifth columnist?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:30 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:How can you be sure as remain never won, nobody knows, I’m pretty sure I’ve said night to you twice tonight, you don’t seem to be 1 for taking hints. Night. Technically 3 now.

No one's forcing you to reply.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:38 pm

dsr wrote:Which side are you actually on? Are you a Brexit fifth columnist?

I dont take sides I just want whats best for us all...there's only one stop!

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:06 am

burnleymik wrote:..and we actually have Brexit and give it 5 years people will be even more informed, from both sides of the argument. Maybe you should make a case for a vote then?

That sounds like a decent theory but it's obviously not quite that simple. If that does happen we'll most likely lose our vetoes, rebate, ability to opt out of the euro ...

It would be somewhat ironic if the brexit at all costs policy resulted in us being in the EU on a less favourable basis than before.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:40 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:I started this thread in good faith that even though the obvious thing to do in everybody's interests is to scrap this whole Brexit fiasco that now there is enough support for a peoples vote even I will support it (the result is a foregone conclusion now we are far more informed and I dont see why we need to waste more time and money to land at the inevitable conclusion)

The only people against this seems to be the brainwashed thick pillocks of which we see a fair few in Burnley and on this board. They can bleat on about the arrogance of "intelligent remoaners" like me who like to look at facts and reality but in truth these idiots are just irrelevant extremists whose voices will thankfully soon be long forgotten

I am happy to be entertained by their babyish nonsense on here safe in the knowledge in the real world common sense and humanity will prevail

" I started this thread in good faith " ..... I doubt it very much

" Brainwashed thick pillocks " and " These idiots are just irrelevent extremists ... who talk babyish nonsense ", are your descriptions of people who wish the democratically elected Government of this Country, to carry out the wishes of the majority of the British people who voted in a Referendum in 2016, in which the major Political parties and the vested interests outspent their opponents by 60/40 % !!

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:13 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:To avoid all that bullshit, since we had the stupid referendum in the first place, it should be us who decide what we do, not the shower of **** that's in parliament.

The current 'shower of ****' was democratically elected by us. Why do you disparage this choice yet expect a referendum to be of more value?

Whilst we will certainly have a better idea of what is at stake when leaving the EU we still have the same sources of information - media, campaigns etc. - with the same weaknesses. I don't see why the electorate, including me, can do any better in future then we did in the past. I'd rather leave it to Parliament to decide.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:27 am

Despite all the arguments and debates our PM (however terrible she might be) has stood firm and outright stated there will be no second referendum on leaving or remaining in the EU, no people's vote, no second chance. She understands how damaging that would be to British democracy.

If you are putting your faith in Theresa May not changing her mind then you might want to have a quick check on how often she has done in the last couple of years on really important stuff.

Look, I don't think anyone really wants a 2nd vote if we can avoid it, but the only way to avoid it is to get a deal to leave with the EU. At the moment it looks like it all depends on just how many ERG votes to stop a Government deal they are. They claim 40+ (considerably down on the 80+ they claimed a month ago). At the launch of their bonkers manifesto for Brexit only 14 turned up. So they have 14 backers, DUP have what, 11?, 12? . Now today the papers are reckoning 30+ Lab MPs could vote for the deal as its better than no deal - the numbers are really close which ever way you look at it.

This deal is the only one on the table that isn't "No Deal" or a "No Brexit" (with No deal being the most likely).

Now even the most ardent of you* (the ones who know what they are talking about) have been telling us that there always would be a deal, because a No deal is a disaster.

You'd hope that there are enough MPs to get this through, because even though its far from ideal, it is still better than the economic and political chaos that follows a "No Deal". Its about time that the country woke up and started realising that.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:05 am

I accept that not everyone is an economist (in fact, as far as I am aware, nobody on this thread is, though a few of us have a financial background).

But the bit that always astounds me is the focus on the near time not the long term. No Deal is actually "no deal yet". Say there is no deal, say there is a 3% drop in GDP for quarter 1 in 2019/20 and quarter 2 in 2019/20 (a recession) then a deal is struck by May's replacement and things level out and then start to rise, with growth 1% above France and Germany in 10 years time due to our free trade flexibility and limits on low skilled migration. Compare and contrast that to a "bad deal" like Chequers that ties us in, gives us an economy worse than if we had remained, and does so in perpetuity?

In the above scenario, the long term economics of the UK would be (in order of best impact): No Deal Yet, Remain, Chequers. That's probably factual and can be proven (if my above crude assumption was deemed correct, which it obviously isn't precisely but is an example).

If we pivoted straight to a Canada+++ deal with the EU coming to some flexibility on a customs arrangement (still a possibility) the order could be: Free Trade Deal, No Deal Yet, Remain, Chequers.

How the hell we could have a People's Revote when the vast majority can't hold those kind of finances in their heads beggers belief, it is the silliest of silly ideas and would obviously lend itself to the status quo, that's why referenda are binary, simple and generational.

People may mock my economic optimism of us having freedom and control, and it may prove to be wrong (though we are duty bound to find out). But No Deal is far from the worst case scenario when viewed with a medium or long term lens.

(yes, I would prefer the Canada+++ deal, and if the EU reject May's cherry picking of Chequers but agree a backstop wording, that kind of deal could be what we end up with. I live in hope. But we should not avoid No Deal Yet at ALL costs - that would be just politicians saving their jobs at the next election)

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:23 am

No Deal is the worst case scenario - period, short, medium or long

Unless you are saying that a Canada ++ is the same as a "No Deal", which it blatantly isn't.

People need to be aware of what a "No Deal" actually will result in, and everytime someone attempts to talk about, a lot of people who should know better are happy to either ignore it or just shout "Project Fear" very loudly.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:25 am

Still, at least the government appear to be taking it seriously.

Look at this job advert on the govt website for instance (though they only appear to want 3 of them)

https://www.civilservicejobs.service.go ... de=1603914" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:27 am

And then you have small businesses like this wondering what the hell is going on

https://twitter.com/GrandpaJem/status/1 ... 1107761152" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:30 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:No Deal is the worst case scenario - period, short, medium or long

Unless you are saying that a Canada ++ is the same as a "No Deal", which it blatantly isn't.

People need to be aware of what a "No Deal" actually will result in, and everytime someone attempts to talk about, a lot of people who should know better are happy to either ignore it or just shout "Project Fear" very loudly.

Lancaster, normally I read you posts on this and get your points and understand your thinking. On this thread though you have gone from no deal won't get voted through parliament giving the people a 2nd vote to no deal is the worst scenario.

My own view is a deal will be done, as it is in both parties interests to agree to a deal and nearer you get to the deadline the easier a compromise is reached.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:48 am

I'm still hopeful, but there was a lot of agreement last week that things were looking up as both the UK and the EU moved slightly, but the details that have come out since suggests that we are still miles apart on crucial areas.

I'm unsure of the procedures in place to get to a situation where we would have a peoples vote, but I think it would involve the deal not getting through parliament and some sort of acknowledgement from most parties that we need to go another way to avoid a "No deal". There is certainly more than enough MPs who want to avoid a "No Deal" to get that through. But it would need one of the big two to change its stance as well I think.

If it gets to that stage, there is no way that remain will not be an option on the deal. You have to realise that is very likely.*

*if it gets to that stage, I still think the most likely scenarios (in descending order are) Deal - No deal - peoples vote

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:52 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm still hopeful, but there was a lot of agreement last week that things were looking up as both the UK and the EU moved slightly, but the details that have come out since suggests that we are still miles apart on crucial areas.

I'm unsure of the procedures in place to get to a situation where we would have a peoples vote, but I think it would involve the deal not getting through parliament and some sort of acknowledgement from most parties that we need to go another way to avoid a "No deal". There is certainly more than enough MPs who want to avoid a "No Deal" to get that through. But it would need one of the big two to change its stance as well I think.

If it gets to that stage, there is no way that remain will not be an option on the deal. You have to realise that is very likely.*

*if it gets to that stage, I still think the most likely scenarios (in descending order are) Deal - No deal - peoples vote

( in other words. I have definately definately definately accepted the referendum result. But please please please let there be another vote in order to try and stop it being enacted )

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:40 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:No one's forcing you to reply.

It's kind of difficult when somebody quotes you, same as I'm doing now, I'll cut you a deal if you don't quote me I won't vica versa, we are clearly miles apart in terms of cognitive thinking, you can keep your cognitive dissonance separate then.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:47 pm

Sounds promising

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1049989071718805505" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:10 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Sounds promising

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1049989071718805505" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You better put the stop brexit brigade like James O'Brien, Alistair Campbell and Lord Adonis on suicide watch.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:17 pm

claretandy wrote:You better put the stop brexit brigade like James O'Brien, Alistair Campbell and Lord Adonis on suicide watch.

I'd watch. Are they going to do season tickets?

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:59 pm

claretandy wrote:You better put the stop brexit brigade like James O'Brien, Alistair Campbell and Lord Adonis on suicide watch.

If this goes through with that Customs Union backstop it's more likely that Ress-Mogg and the ERG will be on suicide watch

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:21 pm

To be fair to quite a lot of people on both sides of this (not on here obviously!) the fear has always been "No Deal". Anything is better than "No Deal"

Be interesting to see how the DUP react. NI is being given a hell of an advantage here, lets hope that the DUP realise it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:01 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:It's kind of difficult when somebody quotes you, same as I'm doing now, I'll cut you a deal if you don't quote me I won't vica versa, we are clearly miles apart in terms of cognitive thinking, you can keep your cognitive dissonance separate then.

So you're denying responsibility for your own actions and blaming them on a liberal.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:40 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Sounds promising

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1049989071718805505" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I’m just picking up on all this, had a long boring report to write all day. Brexit is light relief.

That Peston thread also uses the quote “what the EU side sees as May’s capitulation (manifested by her negotiator Olly Robbins)”

I asserted above that this is a bad deal, done for political expediency. A bad deal that is worse than a (temporary) no deal. Yes, I do know the panic and GDP hit that no deal would bring. It is worse than Canada (which I hope that the EU will still push us towards) but it is better than this.

I can see the appeal to Remainers like Robbins. They can claim in 5 or 10 years we have left, and will blame the economic mire on Brexit voters. We will then rejoin, again cursing those same Brexit voters. Job done. The establishment rejoice. It’s what they are good at.

It is the worst of all worlds. Half out, having naffed off the EU, who will punish us for a decade, with an inability to conduct trade deals. Is the EU really worth it?

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:25 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:So you're denying responsibility for your own actions and blaming them on a liberal.

Did you not see the thread about starting a sentence with "So"?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:31 pm

burnleymik wrote:Did you not see the thread about starting a sentence with "So"?

So what if I didn't?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:09 pm

I can see you've got your "unelected bureaucrats denying us our Brexit" story all organised there Crosspool!

Its a fabulous deal for NI though, and I know this is still not getting through, the EU have bent over backwards on the NI border and the checks.

I'm looking more long term to be honest, while dealing with the short term dislocation this will bring, we have time to sort out our economy for the new world that we'll otherwise be entering completely unprepared.

You have to be realistic as well Crosspool, the rate of people coming of age and the rate of people dying is only going to weaken your cause more and more each passing day, I reckon 10 years before we are back in is a tad optimistic!

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:11 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I can see you've got your "unelected bureaucrats denying us our Brexit" story all organised there Crosspool!

Its a fabulous deal for NI though, and I know this is still not getting through, the EU have bent over backwards on the NI border and the checks.

I'm looking more long term to be honest, while dealing with the short term dislocation this will bring, we have time to sort out our economy for the new world that we'll otherwise be entering completely unprepared.

You have to be realistic as well Crosspool, the rate of people coming of age and the rate of people dying is only going to weaken your cause more and more each passing day, I reckon 10 years before we are back in is a tad optimistic!

Very strange to say it is a fabulous deal for NI - they will be banned from buying many products from the wider U.K. if standards diverge, and will have to follow EU regulations no matter how they change, without any say. Their farmers will have to do 100% checks on the border instead of 10%. They won’t be able to receive any of the goods the U.K. can receive from new trade deals. The Unionists, you know, the ones we are meant to be loyal to, rightly fear they will be pushed towards a Republic.

But the whole of the U.K. is tied too - until the EU agrees that the U.K. gets a customs process in order to match the NI Customs Union. Now, if the EU fears the U.K. chopping tariffs after that, why on earth would it agree these processes are in place? We would be handcuffed, forever. There won’t be any new world as you call it Lancs. Boris is correct tonight - we would be an EU colony.

I’ll ignore your last comment about people dying off - that illusion has been proven to be false many, many times. Young people change as they age. Always have. Always will.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:15 pm

Between 20 and 50? Not so much Crosspool

Its a fantastic deal for the North which you can't see because you have ignored the border issue from Day 1.

And if the Unionists want to have different rules to things like gay marriage and abortions to us, then my sympathy is limited.

They want it back to what it was, with people getting killed rather than risk they might end up in the Republic of Ireland.

I'm 100% sure that there are Unionists who are not in the DUP who think that is completely mental.

EDIT - like I said on here many times, the desire for a pure Brexit brings the additional risks of no brexit, or Irish unification, or Scottish independence, or even Welsh independence.

You ask me is the EU worth it?

I say to you, just how is Brexit worth it?

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:41 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:They want it back to what it was, with people getting killed...

And there you have it. Any pretence of rationality or coherence gone as Lancaster says that Northern Irish Unionists pine for the return of the Troubles. That's how twisted you get when you obsess about this from one viewpoint.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:49 pm

Nothing annoys me more than selective quoting.

Its like you think no one will notice?

Care to try again?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:58 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
They want it back to what it was, with people getting killed rather than risk they might end up in the Republic of Ireland.

If nothing annoys you more than selective quoting. Dont say things that people can simply select to quote, when they need to prove you have never accepted the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed. Despite claiming on numerous occasions you've accepted the referendum result. And you're so radicalised in your Europhilia, that you're prepared to say such idiotic and desperate garbage as,

"They want it back to what it was, with people getting killed rather than risk they might end up in the Republic of Ireland. "

You're a liar, you despise democracy and when proven wrong with independently sourced facts, you block people, rather than admit you're wrong.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:09 am

Obviously not.

So I'll put what I said again just for the avoidance of doubt

This is what I said

They want it back to what it was, with people getting killed rather than risk they might end up in the Republic of Ireland.

I think that is pretty fair.

I also think that the continuing refusal of anyone who wants Brexit to understand the issue of the Irish border to be maddening.

You either have a hard border under WTO rules and break the GFA, or you have NI in some sort of customs union (which is the option that May appears to have gone for, because she realises the alternatives are a lot worse.)

It really is that simple.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:15 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:If nothing annoys you more than selective quoting. Dont say things that people can simply select to quote, when they need to prove you have never accepted the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed. Despite claiming on numerous occasions you've accepted the referendum result. And you're so radicalised in your Europhilia, that you're prepared to say such idiotic and desperate garbage as,

"They want it back to what it was, with people getting killed rather than risk they might end up in the Republic of Ireland. "

You're a liar, you despise democracy and when proven wrong with independently sourced facts, you block people, rather than admit you're wrong.

"independently sourced facts"

I've not been following your gripe with Lancaster but i'm interested in what independently sourced facts you've used. Ever.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:58 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I also think that the continuing refusal of anyone who wants Brexit to understand the issue of the Irish border to be maddening.

You either have a hard border under WTO rules and break the GFA, or you have NI in some sort of customs union (which is the option that May appears to have gone for, because she realises the alternatives are a lot worse.)

It really is that simple.

Then you must be maddening yourself by your own refusal to understand, because there is no rule that says WTO countries must have a hard border. The rule is that WTO rules on trade must be followed, but there's no prescription on how.

At its simplest, they could do something (off the top of my head) like counting the trucks that come into the country - number plate recognition by camera - and checking the VAT return of the relevant companies to see what they claim to be importing/exporting. If this "making tax digital" nonsense is to have any practical use at all, this will be it. Then do spot checks as required on trucks arriving at their destination in the same sort of way as VAT officers can do now. Obviously a lot of cross-border co-operation would be needed, but as both sides are working to the same end, that should be possible.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:53 am

Its not that simple though is it?

The GFA and the WTO clearly state things that are incompatible in regards to the Irish Border. This is the only simple bit in this. The key is finding a solution. The key isn't ignoring it or pretending that 300 + roads that cross the border won't be a massive problem that can be solved with traffic cameras.

There is a reason that no Brexit supporting politician has come up with a credible idea for the Irish Border.

There is a reason why every Brexit supporter just ignores it and says its being blown out of all proportion.

You know that as well as I do.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:41 am

Many people have come up with a solution to the Irish border. Only this week the former head of U.K. Border Force has come out and said there is no reason why current technology cannot do the job. Brexiteers are the sensible ones in this. It is hardly the Turkish / Syrian border is it?

It is entirely a political calculation by the EU, with May capitulating.

There are one or two important things to put in place (like for agriculture) but it doesn’t need this backstop, nor does it need NI staying in the single market. That’s using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:46 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:It is hardly the Turkish / Syrian border is it?

It used to be like that though at places such as Warrenpoint. Wasn't safe to be a soldier in those type of areas.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:11 am

I genuinely don't know why you post stuff like that Crosspool. It used to be that. I should know, used to work for a ferry company out of Warrenpoint (not as bad as Spijed is making out btw!) and a haulage firm out of Dundalk.

Once you've had your papers checked on the ferry by armed marines, or stopped by an army patrol in armagh with your wife and a baby in the car it does make you understand the real issues a lot better.

And regarding the current tech doing the job, you'd still need the physical checks at the ports for certain stuff. Which is exactly what the EU are suggesting as well, with the added bonus of us remaining in a customs union that is the only way to guarantee frictionless trade.

This gives us the time we need to sort this out properly as well. You still get the Brexit you voted for, I don't get the economic dislocation I've been warning about since Day 1. Win/win really.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:37 am

I reckon part of the Brexiters doubts about this Irish border problem, is that at no stage was this issue ever raised during Scottish independence debate or the post EU referendum fallout. Why not? Was it because literally no-one realised there was a border problem until well into the talks? Or is it because, as I suspect, the Irish border has been magnified as an issue by those who want to throw a spanner in the works?

If the EU can't solve their side of the border, that's an issue that the Irish government will have to take up wth the EU. We're on the outside and can't solve it for them. But we can solve our own side under WTO rules, and with the right political will, we would.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:41 am

181 days to go now for our first “informed referendum”... I can hardly wait

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:53 pm

If Scotland Votes for Independence after Brexit, firstly would Scotland be accepted into the EU in it's own right and if so would there have to be a hard border between the UK & Scotland?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:54 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:If Scotland Votes for Independence after Brexit, firstly would Scotland be accepted into the EU in it's own right and if so would there have to be a hard border between the UK & Scotland?

I expect Spain would block Scotland's entry.

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:01 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I expect Spain would block Scotland's entry.

Why would that be...

What i'm getting at is that Nicky S, was trying to use staying in Europe as a selling point for the last Independence vote, but assuming that independence meant they stayed as an EU member as the rest of the UK pulled out was a little flawed thinking or mischievous misinformation.
Surely to have a hard border to the UK and not be in the EU would be a big challenge for them.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:11 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Why would that be...

What i'm getting at is that Nicky S, was trying to use staying in Europe as a selling point for the last Independence vote, but assuming that independence meant they stayed as an EU member as the rest of the UK pulled out was a little flawed thinking or mischievous misinformation.
Surely to have a hard border to the UK and not be in the EU would be a big challenge for them.

You have it the wrong way around, it was the No campaign that used being an EU member as a reason to vote against independence. Nicky S and the SNP were the ones who said in their election manifesto that if Scotland was taken out of the EU against their will then that would be grounds for a second independence referendum.

And the reason Spain would oppose it would be to not reward Scotland for gaining independence, especially through a referendum, since that's what Catalonia also want and which the Spanish authorities violently oppose.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:54 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You have it the wrong way around, it was the No campaign that used being an EU member as a reason to vote against independence. Nicky S and the SNP were the ones who said in their election manifesto that if Scotland was taken out of the EU against their will then that would be grounds for a second independence referendum.

And the reason Spain would oppose it would be to not reward Scotland for gaining independence, especially through a referendum, since that's what Catalonia also want and which the Spanish authorities violently oppose.

The violence by the Spanish authorities that your heroes in the EU described as "proportionate"!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.politico.eu/article/brussel ... catalonia/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"However it is a duty for any government to uphold the law, and this sometimes does require the proportionate use of force.” Timmermans, Commission First Vice President.

Elderly ladies being dragged out of polling boothk by their hair and beaten- "proportionate" say the EU.