Sensible policing or a snivelling coward ?

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:21 pm

It really smacks of using a lack of ppe to cover for a lack of courage and I'm sure many a policeman and woman would have not given a thought for themself to help a colleague in need.

How comforting it must be knowing these pseudo politicians in police uniform have got your back.

Elbarad · Post by **Elbarad** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:57 pm

Sounds like the policeman at the Parkland, FL shooting who hid outside while school kids were shot. Coward

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:41 pm

I think some people are quick to judge. Instinct for self-preservation is pretty strong in everyone and I'm pretty sure there are some on here who are screaming "coward!", when they would do something similar in the heat of the moment. And there's no point in dying just because it doesn't look cowardly, as callous as that sounds. If he had no weapon and was in the back of the car, there was presumably i) no time to get into the front seat and drive the car at the terrorist (plus, how are you going to knock him down without knocking your colleague down?) and ii What if he did get out the car? What then, with no weapon? It's a horrible situation that no one expects to be in, it's pretty easy to sit in judgement without knowing how it'd feel.

lesxdp · Post by **lesxdp** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:17 pm

My understanding is that he saw the attacker running towards the PC so at that time he could as has been suggested done something to distract the attacker, be it have the car driven towards him, sound the horn, and of course get out of the car and distract him. If he only came on the scene after PC Parker had been killed then just maybe his actions were sensible, but I don't think he has shown the quick thinking and brave actions expected of a serving police officer.

chekhov · Post by **chekhov** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:20 pm

I assume if he'd got out of the car and tackled the knife-wielding jihadi, and got killed in the process he would have been hailed as a hero.
The fact that he didn't means he is being condemned as a coward. The truth might be somewhere in between.
We just love to put folk in boxes. Me, I'm not going to judge someone or something of which I've no way of having the full picture.
Nor does anyone else here casting judgement.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:25 pm

I think taking an oath is fine, in theory, but without being in that situation you never know how you'll feel, regardless of your training.

If he had died he'd be another statistic and the terrorist would have more kills.

Double edged sword really. Die and be an apparent hero or live and be called a coward by people on a message board.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:40 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think living with himself is enough punishment without the rest of us, who have no idea how we'd have reacted in that situation, piling on the abuse.

That is of course, you assuming none of us have been in that position before which you cannot be 100% sure about as a irrefutable fact.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:49 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:That is of course, you assuming none of us have been in that position before which you cannot be 100% sure about as a irrefutable fact.

I think that if you've been doing that job for 30 years then instinct would kick in.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:53 pm

HatfieldClaret wrote:I think that if you've been doing that job for 30 years then instinct would kick in.

I haven't commented because I've never been in that position, the point I was making is its impossible to lay a judgement on anybody or plural when you are not 100% sure.

LoveCurryPies · Post by **LoveCurryPies** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:19 pm

By doing nothing he has effectively given the green light to every copper to protect themselves first, rather than risk harm helping someone in dire need.

I’m proud to say I have throughout my life intervened when seeing other people being beaten up. Something just kicks in when you think this isn’t acceptable. Saw 2 scousers booting a guy on the floor so ran at them and tackled them both to the ground. Whilst doing that I thought “I hope the guy on the ground runs for help while they beat me”. Surprisingly they ran off.

Yes, it’s terrifying but it’s better than living with the thought you walked away.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:21 pm

He could have distracted the murderer by shouting, hurling anything at him( even if he then jumped back in the car, ordered his driver to drive at him. It doesn't look good as it's self preservation but a serving policeman or serviceman is expected to put their body on the line and to protect colleagues. It will not inspire confidence in the police officers beneath him in the pecking order.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:25 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:That is of course, you assuming none of us have been in that position before which you cannot be 100% sure about as a irrefutable fact.

And even if you were in a situation like it you still as equally don't know irrefutably how you'd have reacted in that exact situation.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:37 pm

There will undoubtedly be many posters on here who have been in some pretty scary situations, out of control moments and absolute chaos and carnage.

This man found himself in one, and his own self preservation came before anything. He lacks honour, he lacks courage, and I hope he struggles to live with it. Harsh? Maybe, but he bottled it bigtime, and for a man in his position - a position where he may well have to ask his officers to place themselves in harms way - that is unforgiveable.

Precious little faith in the police as it is... this doesn't help.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:40 pm

Chip Harrison wrote:Which one of us would completely unarmed, tackle an armed murderer who was carrying a massive knife and had murderous intent all over him.

Do you foolishly give up your own life because another officer died by blindly rushing at this terrorist, or do you wait another 30 seconds and an armed officer kills the terrorist. It would have just been the waste of another life. I hope I am never put in that situation, but what would he have done if he had rushed unarmed at the murderer? Just what would the outcome have been. What would you have done?

He has just killed your colleague, is running free with a knife trying to kill anyone in front of him. As a trained officer of the law, if you stand back whilst he kills members of the public there is something very wrong.

Remember he is not just an ordinary citizen, he is a trained professional with many years experience.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:54 pm

I’m sorry, but intervening a fight from a couple of thugs, as brave as that is, is not the same as confronting a terrorist with a knife hellbent on murder.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:56 pm

The bloke was on his own with no protection. The two other people were civilians. His lack of action could be argued as him not being prepared to put them in danger too.
Still, nice to know we've got so many brave wannabee super-heroes on this board.
Sleep well.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:56 pm

And I don’t care how long he’s been a police officer or how well he’s been trained, if he has a big knife and you don’t then you’re on a hiding to nothing. This isn’t a fit 25 year old navy seal.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:02 pm

willsclarets wrote:And I don’t care how long he’s been a police officer or how well he’s been trained, if he has a big knife and you don’t then you’re on a hiding to nothing. This isn’t a fit 25 year old navy seal.

Not only that he is supposed to be a leader of Officers of the law.

He will have been trained in how to deal with armed combatants and will have probably dealt with some in his career. To lock himself in his car and watch his colleague die, without trying to do anything at all, not even distraction is unacceptable for a person in his position.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:04 pm

So you keep saying. Others disagree.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:09 pm

Yeah, that is why it's a discussion board. Doh.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:17 pm

I couldn't watch somebody who works for me be attacked without trying to intervene. I've done it once and it's in your nature,this officer must obviously follow rules and protocol and risk assessments not his gut instinct and heart. I'm sure the family of the dead policeman understood his reticence.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:19 pm

bm, you're not discussing the issue, you're merely repeating the same point. Doh.
Anyway, you crack on, you reckon you'd have saved the day, good on yer.

Evenin' all and mind how you go......

: dixon.jpg (6.21 KiB) Viewed 2475 times

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:21 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:And even if you were in a situation like it you still as equally don't know irrefutably how you'd have reacted in that exact situation.

Yes but remember I'm not the 1 who was initially critising others for exactly the same thing you was doing. quite a important point, do you agree?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:28 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Yes but remember I'm not the 1 who was initially critising others for exactly the same thing you was doing. quite a important point, do you agree?

I'm criticising people?

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:28 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:bm, you're not discussing the issue, you're merely repeating the same point. Doh.
Anyway, you crack on, you reckon you'd have saved the day, good on yer.

Evenin' all and mind how you go......

dixon.jpg

How did you draw the conclusion that I would save the day Eddie? Maybe your over-active imagination is working too hard again.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:31 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think living with himself is enough punishment without the rest of us, who have no idea how we'd have reacted in that situation, piling on the abuse.

?

NCClaret · Post by **NCClaret** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:34 pm

I’ve given assistance to fellow Police Officers who’ve been in varying degrees of danger, some life threatening, on many occasions. Thankfully, I’ve been the recipient of such assistance too. Personally, and for the vast majority of fellow officers who I served with, the last thing on your mind at times like this is consideration of your own safety. Rather, it is duty and helping your brothers and sisters in arms. Reading this sorry debacle surrounding PC Palmers murder I am apoplectic, distraught and disgusted at the situation as described. Rest in Peace Police Constable Keith Palmer, YOU did your duty.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:44 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:?

That's my opinion. Is holding a different opinion "criticism" now?

I even used "us", to include myself so that no idiot could possibly take it personally. I guess i was wrong.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:50 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:That's my opinion. Is holding a different opinion "criticism" now?

I even used "us", to include myself so that no idiot could possibly take it personally. I guess i was wrong.

I don't have to trip you up, you're more than capable of doing that for yourself, you're in knots, this Turtle bunker must be a insulated environ, can't be bothered adding. Night.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:50 pm

NCClaret wrote:I’ve given assistance to fellow Police Officers who’ve been in varying degrees of danger, some life threatening, on many occasions. Thankfully, I’ve been the recipient of such assistance too. Personally, and for the vast majority of fellow officers who I served with, the last thing on your mind at times like this is consideration of your own safety. Rather, it is duty and helping your brothers and sisters in arms. Reading this sorry debacle surrounding PC Palmers murder I am apoplectic, distraught and disgusted at the situation as described. Rest in Peace Police Constable Keith Palmer, YOU did your duty.

When you read this it is quite humbling . Cheers NC I'd sooner have you and the officer who was murdered minding my family and friends as opposed to this bloated cowardly box ticker.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:53 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:I don't have to trip you up, you're more than capable of doing that for yourself, you're in knots, this Turtle bunker must be a insulated environ, can't be bothered adding. Night.

At this point all you're doing is tripping yourself up and claiming to have meant it.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:58 pm

burnleymik wrote:How did you draw the conclusion that I would save the day Eddie? Maybe your over-active imagination is working too hard again.

No, bud, you were the one criticising the police officer for doing nothing, the implication being that you would have acted differently ie tried to save the day. Or not. We'll never know. Or care.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:03 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:No, bud, you were the one criticising the police officer for doing nothing, the implication being that you would have acted differently ie tried to save the day. Or not. We'll never know. Or care.

The implication was totally and utterly fabricated by you.

If you read what I said you would have seen my suggestion about an untrained civililian getting involved, but hey, don' t let that get in the way of your childish sniping.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:07 pm

I won't, love.
Sleep tight.

Dy1geo · Post by **Dy1geo** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:33 pm

Dy1geo · Post by **Dy1geo** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:34 pm

I have just read the book Gurkha by Kailish Limbu and it has the Gurkha motto “Better to die than live a coward” as the strapline. I know what he and his colleagues would have done in the situation and he also spoke about the bravery of the other British soldiers at the base putting their lives at risk for others.

Over here that Millwall fan put his own live at risk tackling those terrorists wielding knives with no weapon to hand of his own.

If the head of police saw what he saw he should have overruled the others and done his utmost to help out.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:47 pm

willsclarets wrote:I think some people are quick to judge. Instinct for self-preservation is pretty strong in everyone and I'm pretty sure there are some on here who are screaming "coward!", when they would do something similar in the heat of the moment. And there's no point in dying just because it doesn't look cowardly, as callous as that sounds. If he had no weapon and was in the back of the car, there was presumably i) no time to get into the front seat and drive the car at the terrorist (plus, how are you going to knock him down without knocking your colleague down?) and ii What if he did get out the car? What then, with no weapon? It's a horrible situation that no one expects to be in, it's pretty easy to sit in judgement without knowing how it'd feel.

The question is, what is expected of a policeman? In my opinion, a policeman should get out of the car and fight back, to protect the public (and his collegaue), even at risk of his own life. He has been trained in fighting a man with a knife, after all - he's not a complete innocent abroad.

But if he isn't capable of doing that; if, when push comes to shove, he freezes or panics or turns his back - then yes, we're all fallible. I have never been in that position myself, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if fear had lead me to behave the same way. But then, I'm not a policeman - and nor should he be. Has he resigned?

(This bloke wasn't a policeman. https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/no ... t-15166747" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:04 pm

NCClaret wrote:I’ve given assistance to fellow Police Officers who’ve been in varying degrees of danger, some life threatening, on many occasions. Thankfully, I’ve been the recipient of such assistance too. Personally, and for the vast majority of fellow officers who I served with, the last thing on your mind at times like this is consideration of your own safety. Rather, it is duty and helping your brothers and sisters in arms. Reading this sorry debacle surrounding PC Palmers murder I am apoplectic, distraught and disgusted at the situation as described. Rest in Peace Police Constable Keith Palmer, YOU did your duty.

Why did he do his duty, just out of interest? Because he died? The situations of both men are incomparable by situation alone. Your disgust is simply not fair given the information you have.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:07 pm

Plenty of stories of real heroes who have put others before themselves at great risk to themselves. Sat in your car with the doors locked is not being one. It's clear on the board who would be carrying out risk assessments and be reading their job description whilst colleagues are being hacked down. Thankfully there were plenty on heroes and examples of great leadership in the wars. Cowardice was not dealt with.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:08 pm

Dealt with

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:14 pm

I’ll level with you. Having no weaponary and with what must’ve been a timescale akin to a blink of any eye, I would’ve stayed in that police car. If I’d had 30 seconds notice I’d have driven the car at the terrorist. Did the accused have that time? Probably not. If I’d had a weapon of any kind, would I try and save my colleague? Yes, most likely. Did the accused have anything to combat a knife held by a younger and fitter man? No.
It’s not a matter of courage, it’s a matter of common sense. Death was final for that poor bloke, but the guy in the back of the car knew that too. With little or no options as far as I can see, he’d have been foolish to take on the assailant.

NCClaret · Post by **NCClaret** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:41 pm

willsclarets wrote:Why did he do his duty, just out of interest? Because he died? The situations of both men are incomparable by situation alone. Your disgust is simply not fair given the information you have.

Look at the facts around the whole case as we have reported. People draw conclusions from this, some right, some wrong. You may disagree with my sentiments - which believe me are temperate compared to many I've seen - but don't tell me I'm wrong. On different forums there are countless responses from serving and past officers who share the same feelings; the vast majority of those, like myself having experienced to some degree or other the need to give and receive assistance when your life is in peril. To see that has not been given at a time of need is hard to comprehend.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:54 pm

Is it police protocol for unarmed officers to tackle knife-wielding lunatics? Easy to call this man a coward, but at the end of the day he is a human being with a family, like the rest of us. I can guarantee that a good number of the ‘have-a-go heroes’ who’ve posted on this thread would have done exactly the same.

From what I gather about the event, this policeman’s actions didn’t contribute to the loss of a life, and had he acted more ‘bravely’ then he would have probably increased the death toll by one. But I guess he then would have been a hero rather than a bloated, overpaid, ring-fenced golden pension claiming snivelling coward. I’d rather be alive than dead and brave.

Billyblah · Post by **Billyblah** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:57 pm

We do have the facts, through his and the testimony of others. There will also be cctv footage which if not already in the public domain, will be made so afterwards.With all of that in mind, he is hardly in a position to be creative with the truth.
Whilst I can't see him losing his gold plated pension, I can see him being heavily criticised in the judge's summing up.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:26 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Is it police protocol for unarmed officers to tackle knife-wielding lunatics? Easy to call this man a coward, but at the end of the day he is a human being with a family, like the rest of us. I can guarantee that a good number of the ‘have-a-go heroes’ who’ve posted on this thread would have done exactly the same.

From what I gather about the event, this policeman’s actions didn’t contribute to the loss of a life, and had he acted more ‘bravely’ then he would have probably increased the death toll by one. But I guess he then would have been a hero rather than a bloated, overpaid, ring-fenced golden pension claiming snivelling coward. I’d rather be alive than dead and brave.

Yes. If they have to. If the public is at risk, the police are supposed (in the public's mind) to put themselves in the firing line, even at risk to themselves; within the upper echelons of the police force, that attitude is less prevalent and they are much more likely to have the attitude "sod the public, what about my pension".

This policeman did not know that the man wouldn't go on to kill more civilians.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:32 pm

dsr wrote:Yes. If they have to. If the public is at risk, the police are supposed (in the public's mind) to put themselves in the firing line, even at risk to themselves; within the upper echelons of the police force, that attitude is less prevalent and they are much more likely to have the attitude "sod the public, what about my pension".

This policeman did not know that the man wouldn't go on to kill more civilians.

I doubt the police officer was thinking about his pension during that brief, manic moment. It’s nice to consider him greedy and bring his totally unrelated pension into the discussion though as he’s more successful than most of us. And we hate it when people are more successful than us.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:52 pm

Imagine if more officers behaved like their leader? If they see some loonatic with a knife they just lock themselves in their vehicles...I mean after all that is what the Deputy commissioner would do..

This man is supposed to set an example to his teams below, the example he set here is awful. Not sure how he could ever command respect from fellow officers after this.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:01 am

Rileybobs wrote:I doubt the police officer was thinking about his pension during that brief, manic moment. It’s nice to consider him greedy and bring his totally unrelated pension into the discussion though as he’s more successful than most of us. And we hate it when people are more successful than us.

I wasn't saying he in that moment was thinking of his pension, just that the general attitude in the upper echelons of the police force is that the police mustn't put their lives at risk in an attempt to save the lives of the public. "Health and safety gone mad", in fact. Such as the time that Boris Johnson went on about a few years ago, when a old lady was bleeding to death in her garden while her elderly neighbour looked after her, and the police wouldn't go in to help and wouldn't allow the ambulance men to go and help either, because they were frightened that the knifeman might still be there.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:50 am

ZizkovClaret wrote:It could well be that, in such circumstances, protocol dictates his PPO would be in charge

I'm sorry, but as the head of the biggest police force you cannot watch one of your officers get murdered in front of you without doing anything to try and prevent it. He's not royalty, he's a policeman with a responsibility to the men under him. Consequently, all Met officers will now know that when sh!t really happens the 'grown ups' will not be covering their backs. Deplorable.

Corky · Post by **Corky** » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:29 am

What also struck me as being strange was that, if I remember his statement correctly, after the incident had taken place he attempted to get out of the car but was told not to. Then he was driven away to his office so that he could co-ordinate operations. That seemed to me somewhat callous as surely he would want to comfort the dying PC and also get information at first hand as to what happened.

The idea that he would be hands on co-ordinating I think was a bit of a smoke screen.