Would You Swap With Wolves?
Would You Swap With Wolves?
With Burnley's performances not being as good as one would like at present and Wolves getting results by playing smooth, flowing football I was curious as to whether supporters would like to swap places with them. The reason for the difference between the clubs is obvious, they have been taken over by a wealthy Chinese benefactor who has spent millions of his own money on transfers and wages, something we can't do.
So the question is would you have been happy if the same person had bought Burnley rather than Wolves and put his money into Burnley's squad. I can see both sides on this. As it stands we are always going to struggle in the Premier League because of the difference in resources between ourselves and virtually every other club. For a few years now we have been relying on Sean Dyche's managerial expertise to defy the odds against us, but realistically that can't go on for ever. The only way we are going to stay at this level is if we do manage to get a wealthy benefactor who can finance the club.
On the other hand, we maintain a local identity as a town club that to some extent goes against the grain of the Premier League sleaze. And I think we would lose that if we were to be taken over by an outsider with no previous links to the club. You might argue that this is just the way things are in the modern world and you have to go with the flow, but personally I think I would rather we played in a lower division and kept our identity intact rather than selling out to some outside benefactor. As I say, I can see both sides and I would be interested to read what other supporters think.
So the question is would you have been happy if the same person had bought Burnley rather than Wolves and put his money into Burnley's squad. I can see both sides on this. As it stands we are always going to struggle in the Premier League because of the difference in resources between ourselves and virtually every other club. For a few years now we have been relying on Sean Dyche's managerial expertise to defy the odds against us, but realistically that can't go on for ever. The only way we are going to stay at this level is if we do manage to get a wealthy benefactor who can finance the club.
On the other hand, we maintain a local identity as a town club that to some extent goes against the grain of the Premier League sleaze. And I think we would lose that if we were to be taken over by an outsider with no previous links to the club. You might argue that this is just the way things are in the modern world and you have to go with the flow, but personally I think I would rather we played in a lower division and kept our identity intact rather than selling out to some outside benefactor. As I say, I can see both sides and I would be interested to read what other supporters think.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I think you've summed up the direction that football is going in, unfortunately. The skill of the manager is becoming less and less important as seasons go on, because the money is going up. You do not need to be a good manager to get a team promoted from the Championship when you basically have unlimited money, for instance. You just buy who you like and slap a 100k weekly wage on them. Simple. The only way it would ever end is if some sort of cap came back in. If a wage cap was brought in, clubs like Burnley would stand a much better chance. That won't happen, so eventually it's going to hit a breaking point.
Any club who throws money at players and basically buys promotion, or buys the Premier League has zero respect from me, personally. So I don't think I would want it to happen with Burnley. Some sound investment to give us a bump, sure. But not to such a stupid level of Wolves.
Any club who throws money at players and basically buys promotion, or buys the Premier League has zero respect from me, personally. So I don't think I would want it to happen with Burnley. Some sound investment to give us a bump, sure. But not to such a stupid level of Wolves.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Id rather stick pins in my eyes than swap with Wolves..
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I'm currently watching Wimbledon v Pompey - much more authentic than the PL with it's plastic fans, diving overpaid players and clappers at Leicester
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
No. It's too long a journey.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
It would only serve to continually jack up the finances of the league and we would
simply end up continually chasing our "dream" which would never come to fruition imo.
Eventually a breaking point would be reached where the whole thing could collapse.
I, for one, don't want any part of that scenario and am rightly very proud of what we have
achieved so far. Long may we continue to buck the trend.
I can honestly say that if we received a major injection of cash from someone or something
outside the club, I would stop going on the turf. I would not stop supporting my team but I
wouldn't want any part of it. Where would be the pleasure and sense of achievement ?
Not for me I'm afraid.
simply end up continually chasing our "dream" which would never come to fruition imo.
Eventually a breaking point would be reached where the whole thing could collapse.
I, for one, don't want any part of that scenario and am rightly very proud of what we have
achieved so far. Long may we continue to buck the trend.
I can honestly say that if we received a major injection of cash from someone or something
outside the club, I would stop going on the turf. I would not stop supporting my team but I
wouldn't want any part of it. Where would be the pleasure and sense of achievement ?
Not for me I'm afraid.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Would I want my club to have a 5 year plan of regularly playing in Europe?
Do I want my club to win a trophy?
Do I want to see the beat players possible playing for Burnley?
So I want to see entertaining football?
Do I want to sit in decent facilities whilst watching the above?
All of them are a yes, so of course I'd swap with wolves, however i support Burnley, the above wont happen to us, and it's a hypothetical question, and can't happen so it's irrelivent.
Do I want my club to win a trophy?
Do I want to see the beat players possible playing for Burnley?
So I want to see entertaining football?
Do I want to sit in decent facilities whilst watching the above?
All of them are a yes, so of course I'd swap with wolves, however i support Burnley, the above wont happen to us, and it's a hypothetical question, and can't happen so it's irrelivent.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I saw the subject and thought "swap what with Wolves?"
OK, so the question is really do we want a wealthy foreign benefactor at Burnley?
No, thank you.
Yes, there are many teams In Premiership and Championship who have money "pumped" into them and players' wages continue to go up. But, every team is still limited to 11 starters and only 3 subs from 7.
It is the skill of the manager and the coaching staff that get their 11 picks to perform and see where they are at the end of the season.
It is also the skill of the club's owners/directors that see that the club is "set up" correctly and Burnley have got that in Mike Garlick and John Banaszkiewicz. Both Mike G and John B have founded and run successful global businesses - not bad for two Burnley fans!
For me, buying success is hollow. Building success, when the field "is tilted against us" is what makes where Burnley are today so much more satisfying.
UTC
OK, so the question is really do we want a wealthy foreign benefactor at Burnley?
No, thank you.
Yes, there are many teams In Premiership and Championship who have money "pumped" into them and players' wages continue to go up. But, every team is still limited to 11 starters and only 3 subs from 7.
It is the skill of the manager and the coaching staff that get their 11 picks to perform and see where they are at the end of the season.
It is also the skill of the club's owners/directors that see that the club is "set up" correctly and Burnley have got that in Mike Garlick and John Banaszkiewicz. Both Mike G and John B have founded and run successful global businesses - not bad for two Burnley fans!
For me, buying success is hollow. Building success, when the field "is tilted against us" is what makes where Burnley are today so much more satisfying.
UTC
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Spot on.Funkydrummer wrote:Where would be the pleasure and sense of achievement ?
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Did we not have the 2nd highest wage budget in the league when we won the title? It's almost like fans try to make up other teams ''simply bought success'' while we didn't buy a thing and have done all of this on a shoe string whilst ignoring we had a 10 million quid striker upfront. We were one of the big spenders when we went up, doesn't mean we didn't deserve it, we invested wisely to gain success that wouldn't have come without the required investment, Wolves in the same boat.Paul Waine wrote:I saw the subject and thought "swap what with Wolves?"
OK, so the question is really do we want a wealthy foreign benefactor at Burnley?
No, thank you.
Yes, there are many teams In Premiership and Championship who have money "pumped" into them and players' wages continue to go up. But, every team is still limited to 11 starters and only 3 subs from 7.
It is the skill of the manager and the coaching staff that get their 11 picks to perform and see where they are at the end of the season.
It is also the skill of the club's owners/directors that see that the club is "set up" correctly and Burnley have got that in Mike Garlick and John Banaszkiewicz. Both Mike G and John B have founded and run successful global businesses - not bad for two Burnley fans!
For me, buying success is hollow. Building success, when the field "is tilted against us" is what makes where Burnley are today so much more satisfying.
UTC
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I'd swap managers with Wolves and 90% of the playing squad.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
You’re missing the point that we had parachute income that we had earnt by a previous promotion without breaking the bank, and it was that income that enabled us to have a higher wage bill than a club of our size normally would have. Don’t devalue the building process this club has been through.KRBFC wrote:Did we not have the 2nd highest wage budget in the league when we won the title? It's almost like fans try to make up other teams ''simply bought success'' while we didn't buy a thing and have done all of this on a shoe string whilst ignoring we had a 10 million quid striker upfront. We were one of the big spenders when we went up, doesn't mean we didn't deserve it, we invested wisely to gain success that wouldn't have come without the required investment, Wolves in the same boat.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
No. Think we’ve got great owners.
There is a alternative....go support Wolves!
Hope you enjoy their short term success. So often, these foreign investments turn sour.
There is a alternative....go support Wolves!
Hope you enjoy their short term success. So often, these foreign investments turn sour.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
That’s easy for you then, buy a season ticket at WolvesKRBFC wrote:I'd swap managers with Wolves and 90% of the playing squad.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Why would I do that when I'm a Burnley fan? I'd swap everything with Man City but that's the point, I'd swap to make Burnley better not swap the team I support.Rick_Muller wrote:That’s easy for you then, buy a season ticket at Wolves
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Hi KRBFC, I'm guessing you are referring to 2015/16 when we won the Championship? Burnley were in the Premier League the season before - for 1 season. I'm sure most of us would think that "success" is counted over a longer period than 1 season. I'm also pretty confident - just read this board - that we wouldn't count it a success if Burnley was playing Championship football again next season. Many would also recognise that Burnley have spent the money that they've gained from being in the Premier League, including parachute payments and this is different from a "generous benefactor" "pumping in" outside funds.KRBFC wrote:Did we not have the 2nd highest wage budget in the league when we won the title? It's almost like fans try to make up other teams ''simply bought success'' while we didn't buy a thing and have done all of this on a shoe string whilst ignoring we had a 10 million quid striker upfront. We were one of the big spenders when we went up, doesn't mean we didn't deserve it, we invested wisely to gain success that wouldn't have come without the required investment, Wolves in the same boat.
So, if Wolves are where they are without any new money - good luck to them. And, we can all add the names of other clubs to this list.
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I think you are wrong about us having the 2nd highest wage bill when we won the Championship. I think it was more like tenth, but I am not sure on that.
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Hull City, Blackburn Rovers, Aston Villa, Portsmouth...all relatively 'big' clubs (well they all have a rich footballing history), and all have/had wealthy sugar daddies who have thrown money toward buying success before dying or getting bored or just generally upsetting the fans. Through various ownership, Wolves have been financially propped up for years but with only a very limited presence in the Premiership.
Burnley have a small but very stable Board, comprising local business men who as I understand it, were 'fans' before they made their money and became involved with the club. They in turn did their homework in appointing someone they thought could do a job with finance that wasn't 'sugar daddy' led.
It's an effective and sustainable management structure that we should be appreciative of whilst the owner of Hull tries to sell the club on, Villa go through continuing turmoil, Portsmouth battle it out in the lower leagues and who knows what is going on with those Indian chicken farmers?
Burnley have a small but very stable Board, comprising local business men who as I understand it, were 'fans' before they made their money and became involved with the club. They in turn did their homework in appointing someone they thought could do a job with finance that wasn't 'sugar daddy' led.
It's an effective and sustainable management structure that we should be appreciative of whilst the owner of Hull tries to sell the club on, Villa go through continuing turmoil, Portsmouth battle it out in the lower leagues and who knows what is going on with those Indian chicken farmers?
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
What about in 2008/09 when Flood came in and pumped in money which got us promoted? I didn't see any Burnley fans complaining about how we gambled our future and our success doesn't count because we spent money.Paul Waine wrote:Hi KRBFC, I'm guessing you are referring to 2015/16 when we won the Championship? Burnley were in the Premier League the season before - for 1 season. I'm sure most of us would think that "success" is counted over a longer period than 1 season. I'm also pretty confident - just read this board - that we wouldn't count it a success if Burnley was playing Championship football again next season. Many would also recognise that Burnley have spent the money that they've gained from being in the Premier League, including parachute payments and this is different from a "generous benefactor" "pumping in" outside funds.
So, if Wolves are where they are without any new money - good luck to them. And, we can all add the names of other clubs to this list.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I think you would swap managers with anyone. You just don't like Sean Dyche. You sneer at anything he has achieved and delight in any of his failures. You have little or no understanding of the truly remarkable 6 years that Burnley Football Club have experienced under his guidance and no doubt will continue to do so until that era comes to its inevitable conclusion.KRBFC wrote:I'd swap managers with Wolves and 90% of the playing squad.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I think you're wasting your time putting forward such a reasonable and well thought out viewpoint with that particular poster.Rick_Muller wrote:You’re missing the point that we had parachute income that we had earnt by a previous promotion without breaking the bank, and it was that income that enabled us to have a higher wage bill than a club of our size normally would have. Don’t devalue the building process this club has been through.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Sounds about right.Erasmus wrote:I think you are wrong about us having the 2nd highest wage bill when we won the Championship. I think it was more like tenth, but I am not sure on that.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I hark back to the days before social media.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I wonder if Citeh fans prefer the pre Shinwatra/Arab days?
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Wolves are just the latest of an increasing number of clubs who have been heavily backed by an external/foreign investor - in some cases it's worked out, in others it hasn't.
Personally, I'd prefer to identify with my club and that's still the case. I imagine that's more challenging if you are City, Chelsea, Leicester etc. but I guess everyone readjusts.
For whatever reason it just doesn't feel like it would work at Burnley - bearing in mind the club's strong identification with the community and the fact that our history is defined by both success and failure. Wolves heritage is relatively similar and all appears well at the moment, I would say the jury's out on whether or not it's sustainable.
The odds are very much stacked against us however they improve year-on-year if/when we continue to survive in the PL. There's only 20 places available 7/8 of which will never change. As Stoke and West Brom have found it only needs one year of mis-management to undermine several years of previous success.
Stability is key to our survival and the current business model appears to give us the best possible chance of maintaining our status. It's practically impossible to think beyond survival, it's just about degrees of comfortable - last season probably being the high point.
Personally, I'd prefer to identify with my club and that's still the case. I imagine that's more challenging if you are City, Chelsea, Leicester etc. but I guess everyone readjusts.
For whatever reason it just doesn't feel like it would work at Burnley - bearing in mind the club's strong identification with the community and the fact that our history is defined by both success and failure. Wolves heritage is relatively similar and all appears well at the moment, I would say the jury's out on whether or not it's sustainable.
The odds are very much stacked against us however they improve year-on-year if/when we continue to survive in the PL. There's only 20 places available 7/8 of which will never change. As Stoke and West Brom have found it only needs one year of mis-management to undermine several years of previous success.
Stability is key to our survival and the current business model appears to give us the best possible chance of maintaining our status. It's practically impossible to think beyond survival, it's just about degrees of comfortable - last season probably being the high point.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I think EarbyClaret talks a lot of sense there. I think all Burnley are perhaps missing is a bit of cash injection. Nothing stupid. Just a bit. Because I don't see any/many other clubs who, relatively, are better ran. We must be one of the best ran clubs in the country.
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
For all the money in the PL who would have thought that six years ago, before SD took over we would be playing in a European competition?
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
They've had a good couple of years.
Can we make a decision on swapping after a few more?
I want to see what happens if it doesn't go to plan over there.
Can we make a decision on swapping after a few more?
I want to see what happens if it doesn't go to plan over there.
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
No thanks. Brexit Burnley! UTC. English club for Burnley fans. Stuff Wolves.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
It would be fair to look at some of the teams that have been relegated from the PL alongside us.
How have they balanced finances, regrouped and gone again ?
If you asked fans of Portsmouth, QPR, Hull if they would swap with us, I'm sure they'd jump at the chance.
How have they balanced finances, regrouped and gone again ?
If you asked fans of Portsmouth, QPR, Hull if they would swap with us, I'm sure they'd jump at the chance.
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Unpopular view but yes. Because I would like us to stay in the Premier League and play some nice football. I just wonder why no-one has come in for Burnley.Erasmus wrote:With Burnley's performances not being as good as one would like at present and Wolves getting results by playing smooth, flowing football I was curious as to whether supporters would like to swap places with them. The reason for the difference between the clubs is obvious, they have been taken over by a wealthy Chinese benefactor who has spent millions of his own money on transfers and wages, something we can't do.
So the question is would you have been happy if the same person had bought Burnley rather than Wolves and put his money into Burnley's squad. I can see both sides on this. As it stands we are always going to struggle in the Premier League because of the difference in resources between ourselves and virtually every other club. For a few years now we have been relying on Sean Dyche's managerial expertise to defy the odds against us, but realistically that can't go on for ever. The only way we are going to stay at this level is if we do manage to get a wealthy benefactor who can finance the club.
On the other hand, we maintain a local identity as a town club that to some extent goes against the grain of the Premier League sleaze. And I think we would lose that if we were to be taken over by an outsider with no previous links to the club. You might argue that this is just the way things are in the modern world and you have to go with the flow, but personally I think I would rather we played in a lower division and kept our identity intact rather than selling out to some outside benefactor. As I say, I can see both sides and I would be interested to read what other supporters think.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
A good number of them certainly do. It isn’t hard to imagine that a sudden obscene level of financial investment from the Middle East would make fans feel more detached from the team they have spent their lives supporting.Alanstevensonsgloves wrote:I wonder if Citeh fans prefer the pre Shinwatra/Arab days?
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Clubs that get invested in have a travel network or just a place that brings people in naturally. Man City have Manchester. Chelsea have London, Wolves have Birmingham.Stayingup wrote:Unpopular view but yes. Because I would like us to stay in the Premier League and play some nice football. I just wonder why no-one has come in for Burnley.
Burnley? Nothing, really.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
How much did Mr Flood put in? Did he leave it in the club when the financial crisis hit? Did he put more money into the club when we ended up back in the Championship?KRBFC wrote:What about in 2008/09 when Flood came in and pumped in money which got us promoted? I didn't see any Burnley fans complaining about how we gambled our future and our success doesn't count because we spent money.
I've no problem club owners putting money in, but would I swap with Wolves or any other club who have been bought by a wealthy (or claimed wealthy) overseas owner - rather than ownership by Burnley football fans - see above.
UTC
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Alanstevensonsgloves wrote:I wonder if Citeh fans prefer the pre Shinwatra/Arab days?
Interesting question. Where I live it is split United City so I do know diehards of both, not fair weather, go to a lot of games all over the place.
One of the City lads , who used to be involved in one of the fanzines in the 90s, went nearly every game in their season in the third tier and season ticket holders for years. He gave up his season ticket a couple of years before they won the PL. He turned down a ticket for the QPR game when they won it. Only goes now for the social occasion for the odd game. He lost interest with it and watched RL and did the 92 instead.
Spoke to another diehard blue last month and couldn't believe him when he said he was struggling to find the motivation to go. It's not what it used to be he said, the pre match beers before the Fulham game were his highlight of the day.
Both lads in their mid 40s. I must admit I struggle with the modern game and it's become about not losing to stay on the gravy train. The odds in the games between the top sides and the others shorten by the season. 14 clubs are battling, scraping and been ugly to get 38 points.
Wolves can spend all the cash they want, what will they actually achieve? A finish between 7th and 12th.
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
As I recall, Brendan Flood put in about £10 million in the form of loans through his company. This enabled us to go from having one of the lowest wage bills in the Championship to just above half way and that enabled us to put a team together that came fifth and won promotion. However, not long after the contracts were signed the 2008 financial crash sent the company into administration and the administrators demanded repayment of the loan.
That was why we had a transfer embargo and the reason why Barry Kilby and the other directors were so relieved and delighted when we won at Wembley. The Premier League money meant we could pay back the loans and avoid administration. But it is also meant that in our first season in the Premier League we were chronically underfunded.
That was why we had a transfer embargo and the reason why Barry Kilby and the other directors were so relieved and delighted when we won at Wembley. The Premier League money meant we could pay back the loans and avoid administration. But it is also meant that in our first season in the Premier League we were chronically underfunded.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
No nay never
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Wel.finish above wolves
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
6th it is then.theroyaldyche wrote:Wel.finish above wolves
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Certainly wouldn't swap accents anyway.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
It's great taking the moral high ground about too much money ruining the game etc but it isn't going to change.
If our Directors hold a romamtic notion that we can have longevity in the Premier League operating how we currently do regarding transfers then we will soon find our 'true level' somewhere in the mid table Championship.
I would have what Wolves have got in a heartbeat, their owners are in it for the long haul.
If our Directors hold a romamtic notion that we can have longevity in the Premier League operating how we currently do regarding transfers then we will soon find our 'true level' somewhere in the mid table Championship.
I would have what Wolves have got in a heartbeat, their owners are in it for the long haul.
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Similar history to ourselves having won all 4 divisions (I think), took the easy route and sold their souls.
No I wouldn't swap with Wolves.
No I wouldn't swap with Wolves.
This user liked this post: FactualFrank
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Just to add, I'm not detracting from how the Club is run currently. We have brilliant owners and the best manager, arguably, in all our supporters lifetime.
We can play good football in parts of a game but the majority is turgid without results whereas previously it was methodical with results.
That is a direct result of being unwilling/unable to improve our starting line up every transfer window.
We can play good football in parts of a game but the majority is turgid without results whereas previously it was methodical with results.
That is a direct result of being unwilling/unable to improve our starting line up every transfer window.
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I think we all would! You pay your money to be entertained not fall asleep with the dychenosaur football..KRBFC wrote:I'd swap managers with Wolves and 90% of the playing squad.
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
And you also pay your money to support your team whatever that may bring. Good times and bad.Claretuk wrote:I think we all would! You pay your money to be entertained not fall asleep with the dychenosaur football..
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
This simply isn't true.Erasmus wrote:With Burnley's performances not being as good as one would like at present and Wolves getting results by playing smooth, flowing football I was curious as to whether supporters would like to swap places with them. The reason for the difference between the clubs is obvious, they have been taken over by a wealthy Chinese benefactor who has spent millions of his own money on transfers and wages, something we can't do.
The current Wolves squad cost approximately £10m more than the current Burnley squad.
That just equates to one player.
The wage bill is not too far off equal as well
The appearance of a foreign investor has indeed helped them leapfrog their rivals, but not leapfrog current Premier league teams.
They have just followed a particular road that is proving beneficial, similar to Liverpool.
The ' product' looks good , but is inherently flawed in the long term as it cannot be ' built' on without extensive future investment.
Enjoy it whilst it lasts.
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
I would hate if BFC were taken over by a wealthy benefactor like at Wolves.
There's still something pure and real with our club. That's what the club should always be.
Couldn't think of anything worse than a plastic stadium and no identity.
I somewhat miss the days of watching a dire 0-0 at home to Grimsby in front of 8k
There's still something pure and real with our club. That's what the club should always be.
Couldn't think of anything worse than a plastic stadium and no identity.
I somewhat miss the days of watching a dire 0-0 at home to Grimsby in front of 8k
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Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Yes please. Better players and sexier football.
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
[quote="KRBFC"]What about in 2008/09 when Flood came in and pumped in money which got us promoted? I didn't see any Burnley fans complaining about how we gambled our future and our success doesn't count because we spent money.[/quote
Flood pumped money in? Really? How much?
Flood pumped money in? Really? How much?
Re: Would You Swap With Wolves?
Bloody hell. Things have moved on a lot you know. Ambition?ClaretAndBlue94 wrote:I would hate if BFC were taken over by a wealthy benefactor like at Wolves.
There's still something pure and real with our club. That's what the club should always be.
Couldn't think of anything worse than a plastic stadium and no identity.
I somewhat miss the days of watching a dire 0-0 at home to Grimsby in front of 8k