VOTE for a second Brexit vote...

LoveCurryPies · Post by **LoveCurryPies** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:55 pm

The Independent have launched a petition to give us a second chance to vote on Brexit. 866, 787 (at the moment) and aiming for 1million by the weekend: https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp ... rexit-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:57 pm

Why.? We don't need another vote

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:01 pm

What a waste of time organising a petition for another vote.
We have had the vote, given our decision and proved that there are no leaders of any political persuasion who are capable of ensuring that we leave the EU with a minimum of fuss.
Que sera sera.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:03 pm

conyoviejo wrote:Why.? We don't need another vote

Totally agree we should just scrap Brexit all together but as that is unlikely with this gutless treacherous government ive signed this petition 12 times with different aliases

Goobs · Post by **Goobs** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:05 pm

If there is a second vote then I won't be voting and it'll be the last time I bother voting again probably. With our current system your vote is rendered pointless in certain areas anyway and if we don't bother to uphold the results of a vote anyway then what is the point?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:05 pm

Whatever your views on Brexit and a second referendum it's a pretty meaningless petition, even if it gets to 1 million. Now if it got to 20 million that might be a different matter.

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:10 pm

"The Independent " . The most ironic Newspaper title ever ?

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:12 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Totally agree we should just scrap Brexit all together but as that is unlikely with this gutless treacherous government ive signed this petition 12 times with different aliases

How many Aliases did you use to vote in the last Election

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:12 pm

I was told by a local campaigner that if you want your voice heard you all have to report things to the authorities individually, as a petition is only counted as one person no matter how many sign.

Strange but when was the last petition that made a difference?

Leisure · Post by **Leisure** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:14 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Totally agree we should just scrap Brexit all together but as that is unlikely with this gutless treacherous government ive signed this petition 12 times with different aliases

Now they would be treacherous if they allowed a 2nd vote!

Jimmymaccer · Post by **Jimmymaccer** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:14 pm

And if I don’t like the outcome of that second vote, can I have another?

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:18 pm

LoveCurryPies wrote:The Independent have launched a petition to give us a second chance to vote on Brexit. 866, 787 (at the moment) and aiming for 1million by the weekend: https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp ... rexit-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When it gets to 17.4 million let me know.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:27 pm

What nonsense. Best of 3?

Remainers are just as ill informed as Leave voters, there was no conspiracy (apart from the one now to keep us in), no reason to have another.

The Irish border thing is one red herring just for political purposes. If the EU can have a totally open border (on Sundays) in the middle of the Amazon jungle (which they do, in French Guiana which is officially part of France and the EU), Ireland, with two sides who have equivalent standards, should not be a concern.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:04 pm

Has anybody ever started a petition to stop petitions? That would be good.

As per a couple of comments already made - this petition needs c 20 million signatures to carry any weight at all (and that's assuming only a modicum of cheating by people not eligible to vote signing + multiple signings).

claret2018 · Post by **claret2018** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:12 pm

Cool, another Brexit thread

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:05 pm

https://www.ft.com/content/cf49c956-c35 ... 197280d3f7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

John Major calls for second ‘fact not fantasy’ Brexit vote

"no form of Brexit will remotely match up to the promises made by the leave campaign in the referendum: they were vote-gathering fantasies, not serious politics."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... john-major" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:37 pm

I'm gonna wait for the vote about the vote for whether we need another vote...

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:16 pm

conyoviejo wrote:Why.? We don't need another vote

Why not? Leave voters keep telling us how good referendums are. Or they were when they wanted one, but now that we want one suddenly they're undemocratic and treasonous, or something.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:23 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Why not? Leave voters keep telling us how good referendums are. Or they were when they wanted one, but now that we want one suddenly they're undemocratic and treasonous, or something.

If the results are never implemented then what is the point?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:29 pm

Damo wrote:If the results are never implemented then what is the point?

Certainty. The government asked us two years ago and we responded with a resounding "um, well, we don't really know. Leave, i guess."

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:37 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Certainty. The government asked us two years ago and we responded with a resounding "um, well, we don't really know. Leave, i guess."

So there's no point in referendums then?

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:38 pm

I found it amusing today to see that the Brexit organ the Daily Express devoted it's front page to the People's Vote march in London on Saturday.

Almost admitting that they are getting a touch nervous about developments.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:59 pm

Damo wrote:So there's no point in referendums then?

Only if you're certain that the public hasn't either a) changed it's mind, or b) wants the deal that's available.
And you have no idea of either.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:07 pm

No concrete evidence swathes of leavers have changed they minds, I’d argue some are even more determined to see this through than before which flies in the face of a change of heart remainers are desperate to pitch. If we are dealing with indecisive people (don’t think we are) where is the certainty the mind won’t be changed again once it all gets decided or redecided or reredecided, quite a humourous concept & a warped take on democracy, remainers in a nutshell.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:14 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Only if you're certain that the public hasn't either a) changed it's mind, or b) wants the deal that's available.
And you have no idea of either.

There was nothing about any deal stipulated in the referendum. And how can people change their mind when the process has not been completed yet?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:18 pm

Damo wrote:There was nothing about any deal stipulated in the referendum. And how can people change their mind when the process has not been completed yet?

Do you think that people can only change their mind after a mistake has been made?

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:29 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Do you think that people can only change their mind after a mistake has been made?

Yes they can. That's fine. But there was a referendum that gave two choices. Leave or remain.
People voted to leave and that process hasn't been completed yet. So to reject people's descision would mean that rerendums, or any vote really is pointless.

In any case, you rarely see anyone calling for a second vote because they are silly enough to vote for something they didn't want.
The people calling for a second vote are the people who didn't get the result they wanted in the first place.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:33 pm

Or are people who are genuinely concerned that this shower of **** posing as our government, our negotiating team, have no idea what's happening even now.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:48 pm

The longer this goes on as it is doing, with every day another downside to leaving taking the headlines - mainly on the BBC - the more convinced I am that it's not happening.

If there ends up being a second vote, I will vote the same way again, because I am even more determined now that we leave.

That will be the last vote I ever cast.

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:16 pm

Anyone for rock, paper, scissors?

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:16 pm

I don't understand how anyone can be certain we should leave or stay.
Both sides seem to have absolutely no idea what they are talking about or what is likely to happen.
I think a second vote ,whether as a referendum or as an election, needs to happen if and when there is some clarity.
The whole thing has been a farce so far.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:49 pm

Its funny because cynically, the people who want this "peoples vote" want us to choose from;

A.) this incredibly unpopular chequers deal that nobody wants
B.) Remain

They know nobody wants Mays deal, so they are trying to rig the game so that we remain in the EU.

Truth be told, this may actually have been the plan all along from the tories.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:52 pm

Its like any divorce. You only know if its good after the event.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:20 pm

FCBurnley wrote:Its like any divorce. You only know if its good after the event.

True to certain degree, but you can also have a fair idea of the outlook if you think of what led to this relationship breakdown to finally conclude this divorce.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:33 pm

If the participation rate is considerably lower than the first vote which it is absolutely guaranteed to be due to the apathy this as created towards our politicians on both sides of the debate, how then can any result of a second vote be considered more credible?

Potentially we are going to ignore the result of 33 million people voting and act on the result of say 20 million people voting. If Democracy was ever proven to be ******* pointless this would well and truly be it.

gawthorpe_view · Post by **gawthorpe_view** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:38 pm

box_of_frogs wrote:Anyone for rock, paper, scissors?

Best of three?

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:52 pm

Considering only Leave were telling porkies, I'm wondering if the emergency budget will happen before or after WW3 kicks off. More importantly will it happen straight away or will I get a night's kip on the 29th?

Just checking.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:52 pm

bobinho wrote:The longer this goes on as it is doing, with every day another downside to leaving taking the headlines - mainly on the BBC - the more convinced I am that it's not happening.

If there ends up being a second vote, I will vote the same way again, because I am even more determined now that we leave.

That will be the last vote I ever cast.

I disagree with this. We have a duty to send a message, however we choose to do so. Initially, I voted for Brexit, it doesn’t benefit me (I work at times in the EU and am there today) but I thought it the right thing to do. If this is overturned, people need teaching a big lesson. I will thus vote to be as disruptive as possible - Corbyn initially. When basic rate income tax goes up to 35% people can decide if they were right to overturn a democratic vote. The best way to get an educated electorate in a generations time.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:00 pm

It amazes me how many people seem to want Brexit to happen for no other reason than ‘it’s what we’ve voted for, it must happen whatever’. Even in the face of the mounting evidence that this isn’t going to end well there’s a determination to drive the U.K. bus over the edge of a cliff because it seemed a good idea two years ago.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:10 pm

I can’t see the problem with the Irish border; the EU want a soft border, both lots of Irish want a soft border and we do too. Just leave it as it is. Only in the EU can 3 sides argue about something they all agree on. Or.....could it be just a ruse to keep us in longer, which gives them more time to push for another referendum. Surely not, that would be too obvious and very crass.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:12 pm

martin_p wrote:It amazes me how many people seem to want Brexit to happen for no other reason than ‘it’s what we’ve voted for, it must happen whatever’. Even in the face of the mounting evidence that this isn’t going to end well there’s a determination to drive the U.K. bus over the edge of a cliff because it seemed a good idea two years ago.

It’s what we voted and it must happen whatever, it’s called democracy. Also, what mounting evidence? The more I hear, the better it appears we will do when we are off the USE express.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:15 pm

BennyD wrote:It’s what we voted and it must happen whatever, it’s called democracy.

If we crash out with no deal it’s called stupidity!

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:17 pm

Damo wrote:Yes they can. That's fine. But there was a referendum that gave two choices. Leave or remain.
People voted to leave and that process hasn't been completed yet. So to reject people's descision would mean that rerendums, or any vote really is pointless.

In any case, you rarely see anyone calling for a second vote because they are silly enough to vote for something they didn't want.
The people calling for a second vote are the people who didn't get the result they wanted in the first place.

It gave two choices but the reality is that there weren't two possibilities. As has been said ad nauseam, but i'll repeat it for you, no one knew what Leave meant. No one. Not even the Leave campaigns had a clue. So how can you possibly know that if Leaving meant leaving with no deal that that referendum result would still have been a win for Leave? I think there are a lot of Leave voters who if they knew that Leaving the EU meant leaving without a deal then they wouldn't have voted to Leave in the first place, and we should find that out. Why shouldn't we? The leave campaigns all campaigned on the idea that there'd be some kind fo deal that mitigates the disaster of leaving.

I've asked this a bunch of times and i still await a worthwhile answer (just "but mah will of the peepul"), but why shouldn't we double check with the public that the Leave deal/no deal is really what we want right before we do it? This is supposed to be about honouring the will of the people so what possible harm can it do to check with us that it's really what we want right before we cut off our own nuts?

If the public still want to leave then we'll say so, and the next day we withdraw, job done. And if we don't want to leave then i'm sure you'll agree that it's a good job we double checked, right? Because "will of the people".

I'm convinced that the only reason Leave voters are opposed to the referendum is that they're really worried that what they want is no longer what the public wants, and so they're trying to get it done against the will of the public. I can't think of many things more undemocratic than that.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:18 pm

BennyD wrote:It’s what we voted and it must happen whatever, it’s called democracy. ...

Even if its not what the public want any more? That's not democracy.

Edit: oh, i forgot for a moment that you blocked me because i research my arguments.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:27 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It gave two choices but the reality is that there weren't two possibilities. As has been said ad nauseam, but i'll repeat it for you, no one knew what Leave meant. No one. Not even the Leave campaigns had a clue. So how can you possibly know that if Leaving meant leaving with no deal that that referendum result would still have been a win for Leave? I think there are a lot of Leave voters who if they knew that Leaving the EU meant leaving without a deal then they wouldn't have voted to Leave in the first place, and we should find that out. Why shouldn't we? The leave campaigns all campaigned on the idea that there'd be some kind fo deal that mitigates the disaster of leaving.

I've asked this a bunch of times and i still await a worthwhile answer (just "but mah will of the peepul"), but why shouldn't we double check with the public that the Leave deal/no deal is really what we want right before we do it? This is supposed to be about honouring the will of the people so what possible harm can it do to check with us that it's really what we want right before we cut off our own nuts?

If the public still want to leave then we'll say so, and the next day we withdraw, job done. And if we don't want to leave then i'm sure you'll agree that it's a good job we double checked, right? Because "will of the people".

I'm convinced that the only reason Leave voters are opposed to the referendum is that they're really worried that what they want is no longer what the public wants, and so they're trying to get it done against the will of the public. I can't think of many things more undemocratic than that.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:32 pm

Do some people really believe that we can have another referendum, vote stay this time and go back to where we were?

A bit like being in the middle of heated/acrimonious divorce proceedings, both parties run out of money to pay the lawyers - so decide they may as well stay together in a lovey-dovey relationship. No bleedin' chance.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:36 pm

LeadBelly wrote:Do some people really believe that we can have another referendum, vote stay this time and go back to where we were?

A bit like being in the middle of heated/acrimonious divorce proceedings, both parties run out of money to pay the lawyers - so decide they may as well stay together in a lovey-dovey relationship. No bleedin' chance.

Aye cause the complexities of economical and political strategies are exactly the same as a divorce.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:38 pm

"Like" doesnt mean "exactly same as".

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:39 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:Aye cause the complexities of economical and political strategies are exactly the same as a divorce.

The overly simplistic analogy is another key weapon of the Brexiteer.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:46 pm

The only vote that's needed at present is the one to get rid of the absolutely useless TM...