Can we have another discussion of Brexit?

[Erasmus]

I have read most of what has been written on previous threads and amidst some useful points on both sides there has been a lot of squabbling over small points as well as unnecessary abuse.

I have been trying to sift through and get to the main points in the discussion in order to reach some conclusion. I have to say I voted Remain though with no real conviction because I didn't understand what I was voting for or against. If I had believed the 340 million slogan I would certainly have voted leave. My real concern over what is happening is the effect it will have on the people of the country, on me, my family and my community. What effect will Brexit have on people's lives and how it will enhance the prosperity and well being of the population?

From what I have heard I can see a number of ways in which leaving the EU could make our lives worse, so I have to say I am now more in favour of staying in than I was before. The main reasons for this are:

1. The predictions of the economic effects of Brexit are unreliable. We don't know whether or not it will damage the economy and hence public services and livelihoods. But it is does seem there is a risk that this might be the outcome. So is it worth putting people's health and prosperity at risk?

2. The whole process of Brexit seems to be inherently problematic to the extent that it has reduced the government to a state disunity and being utterly dysfunctional. This at a time when public services are in a sorry state and immediate government action is needed to avert a greater crisis.

3. The peace process in Northern Ireland could well be damaged by the outcome of the negotiations.

4. Immigration. I see problems with large scale immigration into the country because we are over-populated and because of the threat it poses to community cohesion in some areas. However, I have to reluctantly accept that immigration is essential to sustain the balance between the economically productive and non-productive sections of society. This in the context of an imbalance caused by the ageing population. Given this situation, I think migration from Europe would benefit us more than migration from Africa and Asia if only because integration would be smoother and easier, and Europeans are more likely to possess the skills we need.

All of these points can of course be disputed, but to my mind they are serious enough to make one concerned about the negative effects on people's lives that Brexit may bring.

Of course there are two sides to this discussion, and there are ardently held views from both sides. But what I am struggling to see is how Brexit will make our lives better. What will the people of the country gain from Brexit? Will we better off? Will our failing public services be improved? I just don't see how Brexit will improve my life or that of my community or indeed of the population as a whole.

So I am particularly anxious for those who so passionately support leaving to say what it is people have to gain from Brexit and how it will make our lives better, and I would very much appreciate a serious presentation along these lines.

[Bin Ont Turf]

1. There's always going to be a risk. Who knew the risks when Thatcher and Blair were voted in?

2. I think that they were doing pretty well at being shite in some cases before the mention of Brexit.

3. They are still shooting and beating each other up. It's only the state and ex IRA sponsored corralling that keeps a lid on it.

4. You show me someone who voted leave to stop all migration from Europe and I'll show you a complete idiot. It was and is all about control.

[bfcjg]

Oh **** me no.

[burnleymik]

Until we actually give it a go we will never know the exact answer to any of those questions, posed by either remain or leave.

All we have is speculation from both sides.

What I can do is try and give you some positives that I feel we could achieve from a Brexit supporters standpoint...

1. We would have the ability to strike trade deals that specifically suit the UK economy and businesses.
2. We would have full control of immigration, including the ability to have quality over quantity.
3. We could help the poorest in our society by negotiating deals for the essential goods, such as food, clothing etc, without the tariff barriers.
4. We could control our own taxes/incentives and allow ourselves to be ultra competitive and entice big business to the UK.
5. We could help the third world countries that cannot trade via the EU because of the large tariffs imposed on their goods in order to keep EU business competitive.
6. We wouldn't have to help fund an extra layer of bureaucracy, which I feel the EU is and at an incredible cost.
7. We could stop sending vast sums of money to the EU.
8. We could stop supplementing rich land owners to keep empty fields and get our own farmers back working.
9. The return of British Fishing communities.
10. Have more control over regulation and costs of domestic fuel suppliers.
11. Ability to start making our own policies again that have been left to the Eu for too long.

I am sure there are lots more, but for me those are some of the main reasons. I wanted us to try something new. I didn't feel the EU was acting in the interest of the UK anymore, but more for their own interests and more specifically Germany.

[AndrewJB]

1. There's always going to be a risk. Who knew the risks when Thatcher and Blair were voted in?

2. I think that they were doing pretty well at being shite in some cases before the mention of Brexit.

3. They are still shooting and beating each other up. It's only the state and ex IRA sponsored corralling that keeps a lid on it.

4. You show me someone who voted leave to stop all migration from Europe and I'll show you a complete idiot. It was and is all about control.

The risks are clear when you’re putting potential obstacles in the way of 70% of your exports. And we already control our own currency, borders, and laws. Leaving will just mean we have far less influence on the decision making within the EU.

[Erasmus]

That's a long list there, Mik, but most of them don't seem to have much to do with people. For example, point 11, ability to make our own policies again. I have never made any policies and nor has anyone I have ever known. So how will that make our lives better?

So are you saying that Britain will be economically better off after Brexit and therefore able to improve public services? I haven't heard much of that argument so far but if it so then that is one way that it could improve people's lives.

[Bin Ont Turf]

The risks are clear when you’re putting potential obstacles in the way of 70% of your exports. And we already control our own currency, borders, and laws. Leaving will just mean we have far less influence on the decision making within the EU.

The talk of control was specifically about migration.

Any EU citizen can come here, the good and the absolute shite. Let's try and control the absolute shite.

[burnleymik]

That's a long list there, Mik, but most of them don't seem to have much to do with people. For example, point 11, ability to make our own policies again. I have never made any policies and nor has anyone I have ever known. So how will that make our lives better?.

Quick example, the horrible Tony Blair wanted to scrap VAT on on domestic energy, but couldn't because of EU policy. That would have directly helped out lots of British people.

There are lots of other little examples like that which would have a direct impact on people's lives.

[burnleymik]

So are you saying that Britain will be economically better off after Brexit and therefore able to improve public services? I haven't heard much of that argument so far but if it so then that is one way that it could improve people's lives.

I am going to be honest and say I do not know if we will be better off, no one does, but for lots of people they are already at the bottom and a chance for something new is very enticing. In all honesty we have to give it a go before we can say either way what is possible.

[brexit]

No
Simples
The only thing that is certain when we leave the political entity that is the EU is we will regain or sovereignty
"Sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies."
Everything else is speculation and anybody who did not realise that when they voted is a deluded muppet.

[Erasmus]

Well I am not much of a one for taking risks. For the past five years I have been dependent on the NHS for my life, literally, and even in that time I have seen how the strain of underfunding is taking a toll. It worries me a lot to think that our economy could be seriously impaired by what we must regard as a leap in the dark. So I don't see that we do have to give it go unless we can be certain that it won't harm government finances. And I don't see that we can be certain about that.

[burnleymik]

Well I am not much of a one for taking risks. For the past five years I have been dependent on the NHS for my life, literally, and even in that time I have seen how the strain of underfunding is taking a toll. It worries me a lot to think that our economy could be seriously impaired by what we must regard as a leap in the dark. So I don't see that we do have to give it go unless we can be certain that it won't harm government finances. And I don't see that we can be certain about that.

You don't seem to really want to discuss Brexit at all, you are more concerned about the NHS and that is down to government policy, not Brexit. Even if we leave it will still be down to the government on how much we spend on the NHS.

Personally I think it will be very similar to what happened at the Brexit vote. A sudden jolt and then things will slowly return to normal, but that is just my opinion.

[brexit]

Just on this point I work for the EU and bounce between Strasbourg and Tallinn (with the occasional jolly in Austria) on a weekly basis on a large IT infrastructure project crucial to the European Council Functioning. 60% of the guys on the project are British and we have been asked to sign new contracts with a 30% pay increase and a sign on bonus if we will continue to work until 2022. I have heard similar stories from legal, finance and logistics, the EU are worried about the talent and expertise that will be lost after Brexit.
As with most things there is a Political face on this from the EU but the reality of what Brexit means for the EU project and it's continuing progress is beginning to bite and there are some very worried civil servants in Strasbourg.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Erasmus has made some sensible points on these threads over the last year, so I’m happy to discuss.

The one that I recalled from a few months ago (I have just searched for it to refresh my memory) was that staying in the EU was to be favoured in an era of Trump and Putin, due to equality, fraternity and individual liberty.

I think those three things are very British (and have some equivalence in much of Europe). But we should question if the Brussels folk truly epitomise those values. It seems to me to be a neoliberal construct, with an element of survival of the fittest. Look at the treatment of the Greeks (saddled with austerity until 2060 due to a few dodgy politicians - they had a sovereign right to early retirements and short working days if that was what they voted for). Look at globalisation in the europisation sense. Look at the ban on state subsidies. Look at the Euro, using the sweat of Southern Europe to make Germany richer. Look at the way the UK are now being bullied, very similar to the Greeks. Look at the GDP per capita of the U.K. now being overtaken by many EU countries and caught up by others while we continue to subsidise those countries with our large payments.

Erasmus, you ask how Brexit can make our lives better. It is more about how the EU has made lives worse. And trusting in Britain after we have gone. I have talked at length about the economic models and their falsehood (ex trade minister Lilley ripped apart the Chequers one in the papers today) but the above is what has really shaped my thinking on this. If it’s broke, and we can’t fix it, we have to leave.

(Yes, I believe in an EU of partnership, frictionless trading and some loose migration - but I don’t believe in what it has become)

[Pstotto]

1. European culture sucks. England and its sense of humour died in 1973 with Vicky Leandros and 'Come What May.' The Eurovision Song Contest says everything about Europe. It's a prat competition for prats judged by prats. Euro Pop and the useless Ibiza disco-beats have killed the nightclub scene. ABBA were and still are, the very worst thing to ever reach our shores musically.' The dross of that rubbish and all the pillocks it has enfranchised. "Ninety Nine Red Balloons' the same and now we are show room dummies.

2. German cars are the some of the most ugly products ever in the history of design.

3. Our education system has been ruined for foreign business. The dumbing down of culture is the biggest sin in English history.

4. UEFA is actively trying to create Eurasia via its sport competitions. Sport is now used entirely as a politcal tool. It comes from abroad. Foreign footballers have ruined our leagues. 30 years ago, you would never have accepted totally foreign teams playing on our stadiums. They want it to be the axis power structure of 1939 with Germany the Western rulers, Russia the East and Turkey the hub.

5.The Chinese are busy hoping to create a blitzkreig motorway from Beijing to London. Wake up folks.

6. The anxiety about Brexit is entirely self-created and not as a result of the condition. It's playing silly buggers because they are all on drugs in Westminster.

7. Immigration is not necessary for a working economy. That is a myth. We have become a service economy. There is no such thing.

8. No trade deals. We hold the aces and can easily manufacture and build better products. Triumph Motorcycles for drones, lazer pens and trinkets no more.

9. We are draining our country for an American dream ideal that doesn't suit and also to fly a flag of altruism to scumbags from elsewhere that don't deserve to come here and shop at Morrisons on our tax bill.

10. stuff Ireland.

[gawthorpe_view]

Vote Leave.

[Erasmus]

Mik, I am concerned about the economic consequences of Brexit which may limit the capacity of the government to improve our public services. I think this is central to the debate about Brexit. I hope you are right about the sudden jolt.

Crosspool, good point you make about the EU as neoliberal construct. I think this is why Corbyn was so equivocal about the debate over leaving and why left wing MPs were opposed to our joining the Common Market. But I still come back to the point about people's lives. Has the EU made lives worse and will leaving make our lives better? There is no perfection in this world, so the question is which is the least bad option.

I know Greece got badly hit, but at the same time I am old enough to remember Greece (and Ireland) before they joined the EU. Certainly the good outweighs the bad.

[burnleymik]

Mik, I am concerned about the economic consequences of Brexit which may limit the capacity of the government to improve our public services. I think this is central to the debate about Brexit. I hope you are right about the sudden jolt.

I know Erasmus, but you are asking for guarantees on the NHS and economy spending, no one can give you that, even if we remain. Nothing is certain either way. We are already told we have no money for the NHS, so what difference would it make?

We have already seen the EU apply economic pressure to Greece, Portugal, Ireland and now Italy. What if they do that to us? How would that effect our economy and the NHS? Like I said there are no definitive answers either way.

[brexit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CrosspoolClarets]

Only you can decide Erasmus, the obvious statement from me is that in many ways the EU has made all of our lives better and in many others has made it worse. Any rational person accepts that, it’s how the two sides balance each other out that defines their view.

The Euro and the accession of the eastern states are the things that seem to have shifted it, irreversibly, to my position of thinking Leave is best, then help reform it later.

The NHS that has kept you and many others going - I have been helping to run it for many, many years. I can’t see any short term economic impact affecting it. It will always be the first call on taxpayers money. The biggest factor is how well it is run, the second biggest is political desire to fund it. Brexit won’t affect those. Don’t believe the scare stories about us running out of staff either - if we want them, we will try to get them.

[AndrewJB]

I know Erasmus, but you are asking for guarantees on the NHS and economy spending, no one can give you that, even if we remain. Nothing is certain either way. We are already told we have no money for the NHS, so what difference would it make?

We have already seen the EU apply economic pressure to Greece, Portugal, Ireland and now Italy. What if they do that to us? How would that effect our economy and the NHS? Like I said there are no definitive answers either way.

This is a bit mad. We can’t predict what the economy will look like with Brexit, but to say we can’t if we remain is silly. Our economy as determined by our relationship with the EU would be no different than it is now. And it’s not the EU applying pressure to Greece or Portugal out of sadistic propensities. It’s because of the Euro, and the debts those countries are struggling to pay off. Britain isn’t in the Euro. I don’t agree with how Greece and Italy and Spain and Ireland (and anyone else) have been expected to implement Neo liberal policies to reduce their debts (there is scope for other measures), but Britain can only influence things by being in it.

[burnleymik]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme

Should have realised sooner. Good spot.

[burnleymik]

This is a bit mad. We can’t predict what the economy will look like with Brexit, but to say we can’t if we remain is silly. Our economy as determined by our relationship with the EU would be no different than it is now. And it’s not the EU applying pressure to Greece or Portugal out of sadistic propensities. It’s because of the Euro, and the debts those countries are struggling to pay off. Britain isn’t in the Euro. I don’t agree with how Greece and Italy and Spain and Ireland (and anyone else) have been expected to implement Neo liberal policies to reduce their debts (there is scope for other measures), but Britain can only influence things by being in it.

What control do we have over the economy now that we wouldn't if Brexit happened? I would argue we would have more control.

[BennyD]

When Brexit happens; it’s not an if, it’s a when.

[Woodleyclaret]

No lets just get out pay nothing and get on with sorting out our non European trade deals

[AndrewJB]

What control do we have over the economy now that we wouldn't if Brexit happened? I would argue we would have more control.

Seventy percent of our exports go to EU countries. Parts of our economy are protected by EU tariffs. The EU is already making trade deals around the world that we are a part of. These are the benefits of staying in. There is plenty of scope for U.K. entrepreneurs to sell their wares within this framework (in fact I can’t recall a single one saying otherwise). I know our government has messed up our economy, and will continue to do so whether we stay or leave, but leaving will remove a great deal of certainty that business currently has.

[Erasmus]

Sorry to disappoint, but my user name has nothing to do with the EU's Erasmus programme, which I had never heard of before. It comes from a bit of a silly idea I had about fifteen years ago when I thought of myself as a passionate supporter of Burnley Football Club with a mind rational enough to bring reason to that passion. Like the Catholic faith of the medieval Erasmus.

[South West Claret.]

In answer to the thread title no we can’t thank you so much

[Pstotto]

'Britain can only influence things by being in the EU????? Drivel. Splendid isolation and we put our own house in order first and not bother about Greece or Ireland etc.

Remember we have to make the shift from an economy to an economic viability, as as much a self-sustaining unit as possible, given an over-populated world and worse.

Ever expanding wants and needs v. ever decreasing resources. The sh*t will hit the fan as it's a dissonant equation.

Globalization needs to stop. There are stuff like idiot Buddhists going to Brighton and letting out invasive species to celebrate life. There was a court case about it. Utter muppets are coming to our shores. There are African folk coming to England whose honour is to kill folk for their animist valour etc. Why aid the third world? They don't care for us. Disease, all sorts of muck.

Brexit is our chance to start something anew and set an example as a global leader of sensible culture again, rather than the back to front appeasement of all and sundry as a perversion of Christian virtue.

[South West Claret.]

I don’t want to appear nosey but are you mad?

[Pstotto]

No, I'm a blue sky thinker. Meanwhile what is mad, is the prat music on MOTD2 linking yesterday's highlights together. Talk about de-balls-ing football and attempting to do it to every watcher in the process. That's the EU at war with us on our own media.

It is called Association football but not that musical Pavlonian association-remit. That is media war against the Englishman.

A few weeks ago on Final Score, they played 'Dancing Queen' by ABBA over the end of the Burnley match and fixed it so that Joe hart was mouthing the words.

[Paul Waine]

Well I am not much of a one for taking risks. For the past five years I have been dependent on the NHS for my life, literally, and even in that time I have seen how the strain of underfunding is taking a toll. It worries me a lot to think that our economy could be seriously impaired by what we must regard as a leap in the dark. So I don't see that we do have to give it go unless we can be certain that it won't harm government finances. And I don't see that we can be certain about that.

Hi Erasmus, we've had a good 40 years in the EEC/EU and it's been good to be part of it and grow with it for most of these years. I wish we'd copied the national health systems of many of the best systems in Europe - that would have removed most of the "strain of underfunding" from the NHS. I speak (type) as someone who has also seen how the NHS operates over recent years - great in responding to emergencies, not so great about dealing with everything that they've classed as "non-urgent" and like any institution when things go wrong, a corporate tendency to deny that things are wrong or that there's anything that they need to change.

However, the EU isn't perfect - and in recent years the UK (and perhaps other countries) have grown apart from some of the EU's central themes - not least the euro. I know some argue that we can always veto what we don't like/don't want to do, but there are limits to this approach. Isn't it better for the EU, as well as the UK, if the UK steps away and lets the EU follow the path it wants to follow without us. Maybe the EU can be successful with the eurozone (and other projects) with the UK outside the EU?

Maybe the UK can follow a more open world wide approach, rather than the EU's protectionist European approach. Maybe the UK and the EU can co-exist as other countries co-exist without needing to be in a political union and a "one way or no way" approach. Maybe diversity of approaches is better than a single "we all must follow the same rules approach."

I wouldn't worry about "70%" of our trade. It won't all disappear and stop. Whatever "bump" there might be will be less than the impact of the world financial crisis.

[Spaceman]

No, I'm a blue sky thinker. Meanwhile what is mad, is the prat music on MOTD2 linking yesterday's highlights together. Talk about de-balls-ing football and attempting to do it to every watcher in the process. That's the EU at war with us on our own media.

It is called Association football but not that musical Pavlonian association-remit. That is media war against the Englishman.

A few weeks ago on Final Score, they played 'Dancing Queen' by ABBA over the end of the Burnley match and fixed it so that Joe hart was mouthing the words.

You sound mad . No third world aid ? Stuff Ireland ? Go get some counselling for that anger . Blaming the other is a well known psychological disorder.

[Pstotto]

'Blaming the other?' If I'm mad, you're a clown.

[Erasmus]

Thank you for the responses. It's reassuring to read that there is a good deal of confidence that there won't be any major economic problems when we leave.

However, there isn't much by way of suggestions as to how leaving will make people's lives better and I get the impression that most of support for leaving is ideological rather than pragmatic. By that I mean a vision of how our country should position itself in the world.

I can fully appreciate that way of thinking although I don't share it and my view is shaped by purely pragmatic concerns for the welfare of the people. My ideology would be roughly equivalent to the greatest good for the greatest number and the best means by which we can alleviate poverty and suffering in the country. Hence whether or not Brexit is a good thing would depend entirely on the extent to which it facilitates, or at least does not inhibit, the attainment of those goals.

[burnleymik]

My ideology would be roughly equivalent to the greatest good for the greatest number and the best means by which we can alleviate poverty and suffering in the country.

Are you looking at this from purely a selfish perspective? I mean why do you think there was such a large vote for Brexit amongst the working classes and poorest in society? These people are suffering as a direct result of having to cope with the open door immigration policy, they are forced to compete for housing, GP appointments, Schooling places etc etc. I am not convinced being in the EU is exactly helping the poorest in our society....

[Erasmus]

No, not purely selfish. As I said above, immigration does cause problems but unfortunately it seems essential if we are to cope with an ageing population that is economically non-productive. I also think that immigration from Europe causes less problems than immigration from Africa and Asia.

[burnleymik]

No, not purely selfish. As I said above, immigration does cause problems but unfortunately it seems essential if we are to cope with an ageing population that is economically non-productive.

You can't have it all ways. You can't want to help the poorest, whilst impoverishing them with open door policies to help fund the ageing population.

Controlled immigration would be much more favourable and without Brexit that isn't fully possible. Surely you agree we would be far better off taking workers from anywhere in the world, in the specific areas we need, rather than just anyone because they live within the EU?

[houseboy]

I have a great idea for this site. Why don't we have a seperate section solely for Brexit discussions? Anyone who wants to join in can then do so. What this would then mean is that, as Brexit would have its own section so that it can be freely discussed, we could then totally ban any reference to it outside of that section so that no thread can, as is often the case, flip over from a discussion about Burnley's defence to an argument about Brexit. Any mention of the word Brexit could then cause the post to be automatically deleted but free speech would be preserved because there would be a place for that for all to go to.

I have posted many times on here with regard to Brexit and my views, like those of most others, are known. I think many (most?) of us are now bored with it. Give it its own platform and have done with it.

Just a thought.

[Spaceman]

'Blaming the other?' If I'm mad, you're a clown.

Actually I have worked as a clown so well done.
I think though that reading all the anger on here coming from brexit has a pattern. A sense of losing control or rather wanting control back . Of imagined refugee hordes. Of closed borders. Of European laws none of us can name. It suggests a lack of control in your own life and an externalisation of that need. A wish for a strong leader to take charge and enforce the rules . A need for someone to blame to take the pressure of our own lifes failings.
Love is the answer . I hope all you angry people find love soon and feel the joy of life . Or at least chill out and have a pot noodle and a ****

[Pstotto]

Everyone is facing a repulsive personality who is a monomaniac and who one cannot get back at. It is the computer graphics on everyone's screen. if that were a person in a pub doing the hand gesture karate to swipe for every sentence, one would rather be talking to someone else. However the internet has everyone at their mercy for abusing them with subliminal disordering at all times.

[Erasmus]

Migration from the EU isn't impoverishing people, just the opposite. Someone posted on another thread figures to show that EU migrants are net contributors to the national exchequer. In other words, they pay more in taxes etc than has to be spent on them. It's the other way round for non-EU migrants. Problems with schools, doctors, hospitals etc are not caused by EU migration, which as we see to some extent alleviates the problems, but by underfunding by a government that daren't raise the taxes it needs.

[burnleymik]

Migration from the EU isn't impoverishing people, just the opposite. Someone posted on another thread figures to show that EU migrants are net contributors to the national exchequer. In other words, they pay more in taxes etc than has to be spent on them. It's the other way round for non-EU migrants. Problems with schools, doctors, hospitals etc are not caused by EU migration, which as we see to some extent alleviates the problems, but by underfunding by a government that daren't raise the taxes it needs.

Those stats were from a few years ago, since then the tax rules have changed and as a majority of migration from the EU is low skilled I very much doubt they are net contributors, but like I said in the other thread and am still waiting, if you have any data from 2016+ to say EU migrants are net contributors then I would like to see it. Also to claim the problems are not caused by EU migration is misleading, of course it has some bearing on the situation.

You opened this thread implying you are open to discussion, but it seems very clear your mind is already made up.

[Erasmus]

I tried to explain my reasons for supporting Brexit in the first post and one of these is immigration. If EU migrants contribute as much as they cost then they are not the cause of problems with public services. The root of that problem is under-funding, which in turn is caused by the economic downturn from 2008 and then the government's refusal to raise taxes to properly fund public services.

I really do understand support for Brexit based on ideological concerns about British independence, and to some extent sympathise with it. It's just that to my way of thinking the pragmatic concerns are more important.

I have not been posting on the other thread as it seems to have descended into the usual lines of pettiness and abuse.

[quoonbeatz]

Those stats were from a few years ago, since then the tax rules have changed and as a majority of migration from the EU is low skilled I very much doubt they are net contributors, but like I said in the other thread and am still waiting, if you have any data from 2016+ to say EU migrants are net contributors then I would like to see it.

here you go mik

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 42506.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[burnleymik]

here you go mik

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 42506.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thankyou for that. Interesting read, but the one thing it says very often is that these are all estimates and the way it is worded is also very ambiguous. Even as far as basing it on theoretical scenarios. Not exactly conclusive.

From the Report:

Estimating the migrant population’s contribution to the UK public
finances poses many conceptual and practical challenges. In this study,
we faced the same data constraints and theoretical dilemmas that characterise
the existing literature as set out below

Also, they are comparing the average EU citizen against the average British citizen, which I feel is misleading. Most EU citizens will be here to work, of that I have no doubt and to create their 2.3k average they have compared that directly to British citizens,of whom lots are not even in employment. It's not really a fair comparison, it's bound to drag down the average when you include unemployed in your data.

Finally they are also including the details of skilled migration in those numbers and as we have already stated many times we have no problem with skilled migration, it's low-skilled or unskilled migration which are creating the concerns and there is nothing in that data to address that, only overall, with estimates and lots of very inconclusive data.

The report is here if you are interested.

https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/recent- ... 250df6dbba" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tall Paul]

Epic goalpost shift.

[quoonbeatz]

Thankyou for that. Interesting read, but the one thing it says very often is that these are all estimates and the way it is worded is also very ambiguous. Even as far as basing it on theoretical scenarios. Not exactly conclusive.

From the Report:


Also, they are comparing the average EU citizen against the average British citizen, which I feel is misleading. Most EU citizens will be here to work, of that I have no doubt and to create their 2.3k average they have compared that directly to British citizens,of whom lots are not even in employment. It's not really a fair comparison, it's bound to drag down the average when you include unemployed in your data.

Finally they are also including the details of skilled migration in those numbers and as we have already stated many times we have no problem with skilled migration, it's low-skilled or unskilled migration which are creating the concerns and there is nothing in that data to address that, only overall, with estimates and lots of very inconclusive data.

The report is here if you are interested.

https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/recent- ... 250df6dbba" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

absolutely textbook.

[Bosscat]

NO

[mkmel]

Quick example, the horrible Tony Blair wanted to scrap VAT on on domestic energy, but couldn't because of EU policy. That would have directly helped out lots of British people.

There are lots of other little examples like that which would have a direct impact on people's lives.

Putting Iraq to one side name me one Prime Minister in the last say 60 years who was a better PM than Tony Blair?