Blind Man On A Horse...............

Taylor - Not good enough really is he... c'mon? We need help here

Hart - I want Heaton given a chance. Nothing Hart saved Heaton would not have.
Heaton bosses the back 4 / sorts all defending better.
Pope also does when fit.
We were so out of shape and wide open at times. Keeping it tight used to be our strength...

Hendrick - offers so little. Can anyone disagree?

We punt and hoof it far too much.

Cork, I like and had just a bad day to deal with - but was poor.

I can't understand how we have become so bad?
Both CB's were not great but it has to be said they were left stranded by the FB's many times with a MF not working in either direction...
Tarks is no a 50 yard passer is he? He is just punting it to anyone tall.

Change the starting 11.

Maybe start passing the ball better.

Agreed. Taylor, Hart and Hendrick are all excellent players but I think Heaton is our best option. Taylor is ok until Ward is fit again. Hendrick plays well in midfield but We can do better with 2 strikers up front

Biggest problem is our #1 striker is still the same striker that was playing for us 6 years ago when Dyche took over an average Championship squad

We have progressed so much in defence and midfield but Dyche has really struggled in signing strikers with Gray and Barnes being the only good signings. Juke, Sordell, Vossen, Hennings, Long, Walters & wells have been complete flops with Wood looking pretty average albeit Id give him at least this season before passing full judgement and Vydra still an unknown quantity

hart has been incredible, his acrobatics have prevented defeats going into double figures.

Wile E Coyote wrote:hart has been incredible, his acrobatics have prevented defeats going into double figures.

read the OP

"Hart - I want Heaton given a chance. Nothing Hart saved Heaton would not have.
Heaton bosses the back 4 / sorts all defending better.
Pope also does when fit".

Hart has made great saves but ... don't shoot me here ... he does mot take crosses - and again his left side low down is targeted.
Just saying,,,
Admitting also he was left bare at times today by those in-front of him.
I think Heaton is a better Keeper also.

Norhing Hart let in would have been saved by Heaton (or Pope)

We looked a bit sluggish at times - both the 2nd and 2rd goals yoi could see coming - especially the 3rd as Willian had been angling to do that all afternoon.

Taylor did ok - goals all camr either diwn the middle or the ir left.

Hendrixk did ok as well- disgraceful that people were cheeri g as he was subbed.

Decent first half and we got caught flatfooted for the second. They also played very well. But worrting that yet again our subs made v little impact and Cork still struggling

HunterST_BFC wrote:
Hart - I want Heaton given a chance. Nothing Hart saved Heaton would not have.

I like Heaton, but I am not sure about this. Hart deserves his shirt and it should be his to lose.

Taylor - I still think he will grow into the role, makes mistakes sure, but so do many others. Think it made a big difference today when he actually had some decent cover in front of him.

Totally agree that we hoof it long far too often and it usually comes straight back putting us under pressure again, but there were signs today, especially first half, where we got it down and tried to play. The passing was far better than recent games.

Also, I think apart from Willian, most of the Chelsea attacks came straight through the middle or over the top, which has nothing to do with the fullbacks leaving the CB's exposed.

I think we can actually pass the ball quite well for periods, but we revert to hoof it as soon as we are under any kind of pressure.

when you're up against teams like city or chelsea, , you get that ball in the box immediately.
the cross should be instant, or a shot. otherwise the chance rarely occurs
no place for game plans where the ball is hopefully knocked around to create a never going to happen opening.

Lowton, Mee and Tarks where all poor on various goals today, let's replace everyone - if only we had twentunfety billion to do it with

Taylor had an excellent game and kept Alonso quiet.Joel pulled off a series of magnificant saves and must keep the shirt.Jack Cork was very poor today looked a shadow of his true self.Dithering on the ball snd poor choices in passing.Geoff Hendrick looked like a pub player off the pace all game.But why we didnt play Vokes and Barnes againgst Chelsea from the start.
Positives Robbie Brady and Defour played well as did Ben Mee

Aye, let's drop the guy who's been our best player this season.

Spiffing idea!

I didn't think we were that bad today all things considered. I felt I could see what we were trying to do against an exceptional side unlike previous games against lesser sides.

Answering your op sort of. I think Dyche missed a real opportunity today at 3 nil when he changed Hendrick for Barnes, IMO opinion that was the ideal opportunity to see if Vydra could slip into the number 10 role in that formation.

A mate of my sons is a Man City ST Holder, he said of last week that we looked unfit & after the first 30mins looked knackered. Wasn't there, but if true its slightly worrying.

Can't be long before Ben Gibson is starting.

Taylor is the biggest problem as we have narrow wingers and this requires our full backs to get forward and Taylor doesn't do that enough.

Hendrick is fine in midfield but is of little use as a no 10. So we need to decide if we're going to play 2 up front or not, this half pregnant approach doesn't work

Hart - Doesn't deserve to be dropped, I prefer Heaton or Pope but Joe deserves the shirt

Ridiculous to even consider dropping Hart at the moment. As stated above, he's saved us
from a few avalanches against us. Some of the saves he's pulled off, TH wouldnt have got to.

My paper today gives scores out of 10 for every player. Mark Noble sent off got a 4, many Huddersfield players got 4's only one player in the whole of the PL games this weekend got a 3 and he played for us, if Dyche can't see and fix what we can all see then we may well be in the doo doo, oh and yes it was our so called No 10.

Hart is what most keepers are, a good shot stopper. but don`t let this mask his inability to command even the six yard box or organize the back four as TH does, their lack of confidence in his ability to deal with anything over the top or through the middle has led to them dropping deeper and that brings its own problems, our problems are not just down to that Tarks seems to have lost his discipline and is all over the show which exposes Mee and I feel Heatons ability to talk to and organize the defence IMO is urgently needed if we are to redress the shambles that our once secure defence has become

claretgimmer wrote:Hart is what most keepers are, a good shot stopper. but don`t let this mask his inability to command even the six yard box or organize the back four as TH does, their lack of confidence in his ability to deal with anything over the top or through the middle has led to them dropping deeper and that brings its own problems, our problems are not just down to that Tarks seems to have lost his discipline and is all over the show which exposes Mee and I feel Heatons ability to talk to and organize the defence IMO is urgently needed if we are to redress the shambles that our once secure defence has become

How many England caps has Hart got compared to Heaton?

How many is he currently getting, what he once was is irrelevant it`s what he does now

claretgimmer wrote:Hart is what most keepers are, a good shot stopper. but don`t let this mask his inability to command even the six yard box or organize the back four as TH does, their lack of confidence in his ability to deal with anything over the top or through the middle has led to them dropping deeper and that brings its own problems, our problems are not just down to that Tarks seems to have lost his discipline and is all over the show which exposes Mee and I feel Heatons ability to talk to and organize the defence IMO is urgently needed if we are to redress the shambles that our once secure defence has become

I would say Hart and Heaton's weaknesses are very similar neither of them are the type to command the 6 yard box when the cross comes in and position themselves to make the save rather than attack the cross. So in that respect Hart isn't the problem if the answer is Heaton.

And if we really need the goalkeeper to tell our now fairly established Premier League defenders where they should be then the problems are a lot bigger than anybody could ever imagine. I sit quite near to the front of the Jimmy Mac and I would say Joe Hart is very loud and very demanding of the players in and around him.

Why not bring Gibson in and move Mee to left back or go 3-5-2 ?

Woodleyclaret wrote:Taylor had an excellent game and kept Alonso quiet.Joel pulled off a series of magnificant saves and must keep the shirt.Jack Cork was very poor today looked a shadow of his true self.Dithering on the ball snd poor choices in passing.Geoff Hendrick looked like a pub player off the pace all game.But why we didnt play Vokes and Barnes againgst Chelsea from the start.
Positives Robbie Brady and Defour played well as did Ben Mee

I thought Mee was poor again yesterday.

We need to give Vydra a proper chance and Id like to see Gibson in there as soon as possible.Mee needs to know hes not undroppable

vinrogue wrote:My paper today gives scores out of 10 for every player. Mark Noble sent off got a 4, many Huddersfield players got 4's only one player in the whole of the PL games this weekend got a 3 and he played for us, if Dyche can't see and fix what we can all see then we may well be in the doo doo, oh and yes it was our so called No 10.

Sean has a blind spot when it comes to Jeff and the No 10 role,play the guy in his best position which is CM,or don't start him at all.

claretgimmer wrote:Hart is what most keepers are, a good shot stopper. but don`t let this mask his inability to command even the six yard box or organize the back four as TH does, their lack of confidence in his ability to deal with anything over the top or through the middle has led to them dropping deeper and that brings its own problems, our problems are not just down to that Tarks seems to have lost his discipline and is all over the show which exposes Mee and I feel Heatons ability to talk to and organize the defence IMO is urgently needed if we are to redress the shambles that our once secure defence has become

Tbh I think blaming Hart is rubbish. He is far more than just a “shot stopper”. He is vocal and always been a leader. Do you honestly think he is not trying to organise the defence. Heaton and Hart are both very similar keepers - very agile and talented keepers but like many in this league they do not command their area like Courtois used to do and like Pope definitely did for us last year.

We have big problems at left back. Mee has had a poor season. Bardsley was awful when he played and Lowton who I like a lot has had 3 or 4 stinkers this year. Tarks was not great yesterday but he has been our best defender and outfield player by a mile this year.

So whilst Tarks and Hart have been our best players this season it is impossible for a defence to cope in this league when so many are playing below form and they are not being protected by your midfield either.

You might be able to get away with 2 or 3 players playing poorly - you can’t get away with it when only 2 or 3 are playing well.

expoultryboy wrote:Why not bring Gibson in and move Mee to left back or go 3-5-2 ?

Indeed, we might as well as our two full backs at the moment are performing poorly and the opposition seems to have miles of space on the wings as our full backs tuck in so narrow anyway.

With Brady back we would have two decent wing backs, we could play two up front and have a midfielder that joins up with the forwards. However the danger is we end up with a back five, and play even deeper.

I accept Heaton isn`t the greatest commander of the 6yd box in the air aka Pope, but he isn`t rooted to his line when balls are played behind the back four which I feel Hart is, as for organising the defence premier league or Lg2 defenders and keepers need to communicate at all times and although I sit well up in the JHU I hear TH loud and clear barking at the back four but I have never heard so maybe he is quieter than Heats ?

HunterST_BFC wrote:Hendrick - offers so little. Can anyone disagree?

Didn't play well yesterday but totally disagree in general this season. He's been one of our better players. Quite honestly, the first one out for me on current form would be Jack Cork.

Hart has been our player of the season so far and by some distance.

Foulthrow wrote:Hart has been our player of the season so far and by some distance.

Exactly..... But he wasn't born in Burnley, and his family don't support burnley so he hasn't got a chance with some of our fans

Cork has dodged criticism on here despite being pretty awful all season, whilst Hart, the obviously POTY, is receiving calls to be dropped.

Mental.


EDIT: I also honestly get the impression some are almost asking for some of our losses to be down to Hart f*ck ups, and are disappointed that they aren’t. You know, just so they can proudly say they were right all along about him. Also mental.

The analysis on MOTD2 summed a lot up in that we are giving opposition players far too much space and time on the ball and for Chelsea yesterday it must have felt like a training exercise, it was only when there fans started the ole’s that we seemed to try to hunt the ball. Also we are constantly backing off opposing players running with the ball. It used to be that you could defend your box and allow players to shoot from outside knowing only a “worldly” would get a goal but now players are so good give them a small gap in the goal and they will find it. On a positive note if we play like we did in the first 10-15 minutes yesterday we will have no problems staying up.

'Taylor had an excellent game and kept Alonso quiet'

They were on opposite sides of the pitch and about as far away from each other as was possible. Alonso played as a standard left back and barely ventured across the halfway line.

On Saturday the second goal was key. Barclay shot past Lowton and Tarkowski. Lowton turned round almost completely and Tarky half turned and let the ball go through his legs. Last year that just did not happen. Also it is one that Popey might, just might, have got a hand to.

Fair play to Hart overall though as he pulled three out of the net on Saturday.

It's hard to put a finger on what has happened to our defence, even the media are talking about it now. All I know is that as good as City and Chelsea are we shouldn't be shipping 9 goals in two games with one of them at home. It's NOT Hart's fault, he has been brilliant. I don't think any of those 9 goals were down to him. Something is oddly wrong and no-one, even Dyche, seems to know what it is. We don't appear to be the worst side in the division but performance wise I'm not so sure. We have ground out results against bad sides (Southampton, Huddersfield and Cardiff - although to be fair we looked okay at Southampton) and somehow, miraculously, managed to hammer Bournemouth despite being outplayed for most of the game.

I don't think Hendrick is a bad player but he's being consistently played in the wrong role. Cork is having a poor season but we KNOW he is better than this so that is a mystery. Maybe the key to the defensive problems is the absent Ward, who knows. Mee is up and down and Tarks is not playing particularly well although he looks good compared to the others. Brady and Defour WILL make a difference but they have to bed in after such long lay offs. Goodness knows what is wrong between Vydra and Dyche but going off what we need and the way he has played when he has been on he should be a shoe in at the moment.

As for the strikers we have a bunch of decent Championship players who try their best but frankly, and I have been consistent with this, they are not first choice strikers. Any or all of them would probably be okay with a quality partner but as main strikers or even worse lone strikers I'm sorry but no, they aren't good enough. There has to be some quality out there, especially abroad, that won't break the bank.

I'm not being doom and gloom here because I do think we will be fine in the longer term but we need to at least start playing well against the lesser sides because up to now, on the balance of play, we should have one point. Even the 1-0 loss at Wolves could have been a cricket score the way we played. Grinding out results against the better teams, and I mean the Evertons and Leicesters not the top six (although we did that quite well last season) is okay, but struggling to get a point at home to Huddersfield and an undeserved win at Cardiff don't make for good reading.

Taylor had a good game on Saturday, far better than the other three. He offered little going forward, but who did.
Hart has been left to hang by the men in front of him, and although I would love to see Tom back, Hart had done little to nothing wrong.
I was surprised Hendrick wad pulled on Saturday, he did lead up to the first goal, but was played into a bad position. Most of his game he was ok.
Cork has been off the pace all season, and he looks very slow. If he is out injured it's a great time to try JBG, Defour, Hendrick and Brady across the middle. It would allow Vydra to play behind Sam up front, win win.
Mee was better than of late Saturday, but I would like to see Gibson on the pitch, a better footballer, and he can't possibly be slower. Our strength was in cutting the options of the opposition, Tarks and Mee haven't done that this season.

Hart
Lowton Tarks Gibson Taylor
Brady Defour Hendrick JBG
Vydra
Vokes

With a lot of sympathy for Tom.

Houseboy - we have too many players week in week out playing poorly.
Mee - poor season and lots of mistakes.
Taylor not good enough from what I have seen so far and again lots of mistakes.
Ward - think he was playing with an injury and he lost confidence. (The sh-it storm at Ireland with that nutter Roy Keane cannot have helped)
Bardsley - looked shocking when we played him and offers zero going forward and an accident (or red card) waiting to happen at back.
Lowton - I like him a lot. He's not been helped by Lennon`s form but he's also had 3 or 4 stinkers himself. When Lowts plays well he gives us a different dimension because of the quality of his forward play, crossing, passing etc.
Cork - poor season and giving the ball away so much. I actually thought he had a decent game at City and was optimistic because this coincided with the return of Defour but he was awful yesterday.
Lennon - he's had one good game, a couple of ok games and the rest he's been totally ineffective.
Barnes - not getting picked and when he has he has not looked himself (but for maybe a couple of games)
Wood - has been absolutely shocking....do not know what has happened to the lad but it shows you how difficult it is to get a decent striker even if you are forking out big money.

So that leaves :
Hart - our best player this year (but still he does not command his box like Pope which last year was massive in terms of giving the rest of the team a rest from opposition pressure or simply a punch falling to one of their team to score or cross it for a goal)
Tarks - he's been our best outfield player but still not up to the form of last year.
JBG - he's had some good games and he's been involved in most of our goals. That said he's not reached the form of last year.
Vokes - he's done ok in most games he has played. But its worrying that at this stage in our evolution that he is probably our best striker this year.
Hendrick - one of our better performers but not in the no 10 position that you can clearly see he dislikes himself (and he has said this in interviews in a polite way)
Vydra - who knows ? He played very well in his one start and it was great to see someone with legs up front making intelligent runs so that clever quality players like Lowton could play balls into.
McNeil - I thought he played very well when I have seen him. Disappointed (and don't understand) why we have not seen more of him

Defour and Brady will hopefully give the team a big lift but when you analyse our team player by player and position by position I think it would be hard to argue that across every single position and player we are performing worse than last year and in the case of some individuals a lot worse.

We are not a shoe in for relegation by any means - you don't become bad players all of a sudden....but at the moment we are the opposite of a perfect storm. Infact we are a perfect sh-it storm !!

Colburn_Claret wrote: Hart
Lowton Tarks Gibson Taylor
Brady Defour Hendrick JBG
Vydra
Vokes

.

Considering Vydra appears to be our 4th choice striker at the moment I can't see Dyche doing this unfortunately.

Colburn_Claret wrote: Hart
Lowton Tarks Gibson Taylor
Brady Defour Hendrick JBG
Vydra
Vokes

With a lot of sympathy for Tom.

One thing for sure - I wouldn't want Brady on the right and JBG on the left.

What is surprising me is our centre halves are getting caught under the ball when their keeper kicks it long and lowish up.the middle of the pitch. Smaller opposition players are wining headers. Spurs did this to very good affect to.Harry Kane in last season's home game when he scored three.

I suppose it didn't help yesterday giving Willian the freedom of Turf Moor. But we really need a good strong stopper type in midfield.

Goobs wrote:Considering Vydra appears to be our 4th choice striker at the moment I can't see Dyche doing this unfortunately.

Against City and Chelsea he was always going to go with a lone striker, I'd be surprised, and ****** off, if we don't go with 2 up top against West Ham. Horses for courses.

FactualFrank wrote:One thing for sure - I wouldn't want Brady on the right and JBG on the left.

It doesn't matter on paper, they swap during the game, all the time anyway.

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:I thought Mee was poor again yesterday.

I think Long might have done better than Mee or Tarks yesterday. But let's be fair they are left exposed these guys.

Bringing Vydra in for Hendrick is a no-brainer. He's creative, intelligent, pacy-ish. Needs to start.

I'd bring in Wood for Vokes. I know he's struggled but he's our best striker and he'll be fine with some proper support behind him (like he had from Barnes at the end of last season).

As for the defence... god knows.

Stayingup wrote:I think Long might have done better than Mee or Tarks yesterday. But let's be fair they are left exposed these guys.

Mee has been poor all season. Not sure what the problem is. Not getting the same protection? Sulking because no one came in for him over the summer?

Wouldn't drop Hart, he's been outstanding, our best player by a mile.

Made some incredible saves again yesterday.

I disagree that Heaton would've stopped them all, Joe Hart is a better goalkeeper, only your sentiment is telling you otherwise.

Yep Ben Mee is sulking as nobody came in for him and couldn't move on so he signed a new long term contract making it even more unlikely he will move on.

Where do we get these lot from ?

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:Wouldn't drop Hart, he's been outstanding, our best player by a mile.

Made some incredible saves again yesterday.

I disagree that Heaton would've stopped them all, Joe Hart is a better goalkeeper, only your sentiment is telling you otherwise.

I think Heaton is the better keeper and with him being club captain he should be starting for me.

I agree Heaton is the better keeper. he organises and leads. I felt safe against Olympiakos with him in goal.

But he was a shadow of his former self at Burton.

I would give him another chance tho. Hart has played well but has let in a lot of goals. Something is wrong with a defence that was so good last season.

It is down to guesswork now and we have to try something. Shuffling the ten in front of Hart didn't work so...