Still badly missing pace up front

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Jakubs Tash
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Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Jakubs Tash » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

There have been some very interesting threads over the last few days (and yesterday in particular) citing where supporters feel we are currently short or what the issues seem to be. One thing is for certain, there is something just not quite right at the moment but it is difficult to actually put a finger on it.

I believe one of the things is having some genuine pace up front. Someone who can stretch the opposition and run in behind them (without having to try and get a two yard head start and being off side). We have missed pace since Gray left and there is only arguably Vydra out of the current crop of forwards who have a decent turn of pace...although even his pace doesn't look electric (and he also doesn't really play on the shoulder of the defender). There has been quite a bit of debate recently about the goalscoring ratios of our current forwards and what they can offer but none of them really offer this.

It was clear that we tried to sign another forward in the summer so I'm sure the manager will be looking to try and add in this area come January. But what we really don't need imo is another target man/battering ram - we need a centre forward who can scare the defenders with his pace. A quick centre forward with the required ability (touch) won't be cheap....but surely this would be money well spent. Morata showed yesterday how a forward with pace can terrorise and occupy two centre halves. Always on the half turn and creating chance after chance.

theroyaldyche
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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by theroyaldyche » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:55 pm

Vydra needs to play. Simple
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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Papabendi » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:57 pm

Doesnt seem to harm Glenn Murray's ability to find the net.
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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by tim_noone » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:02 pm

I wouldn't know if wells had pace...the lad that went to Walsall had it...the lad that went back to spurs had it...mc niel?has it...darikwa while not up front had it...and vydra seems to have it.... You won't win owt with kids though!

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Jakubs Tash » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:04 pm

Papabendi wrote:Doesnt seem to harm Glenn Murray's ability to find the net.
Brighton have a very different way of playing and their midfield 5 has significant differences to ours too.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Vegas Claret » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:07 pm

Papabendi wrote:Doesnt seem to harm Glenn Murray's ability to find the net.
that's cause they have fast tricky wingers

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by bfcjg » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:11 pm

We have been desperate for pace up front but for some reason we don't seem to want to play that way. I think Defour is ideal for playing killer balls through centre halves to a pacy forward such as Vydra.

aggi
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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by aggi » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:14 pm

It was notable how high a line Chelsea played at times yesterday. They were clearly well aware that we didn't have anyone who had the pace to beat their defenders.
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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Top Claret » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:25 pm

Dyche needs to pot this 4411 formation it isn't working. Dyche needs to slot Hendrick back into midfield, play 451 and let Brady have some freedom to move forward and attack. We are far to negative and play far to deep.
The defence is also a problem Mee is having a stinker of a season, we really do have a problem with the central defenders. I would even drop Mee for Long, he can't be any worse

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by beddie » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:35 pm

I've said on numerous ocassions that to compete at this level you have to have pace right through the team, the problem is those players cost you a lot of money. The Directors will have to address this and start to pay biggest fees and wages otherwise we'll get left behind. Dyche needs a lot bigger pot than he's ever had both in January and next summer should we be fortunate to stay up. Antonio and Moses to name just two are the next level we should to be looking at.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:38 pm

I really don't think we'll bring anybody in, in January. I hope that's not the case, but I think it will be.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by beddie » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:07 pm

FactualFrank wrote:I really don't think we'll bring anybody in, in January. I hope that's not the case, but I think it will be.
Well if we don't were only going one way.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by northernpowerhouse » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:28 pm

I agree but Vydra playing behind Wood will do for now.
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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by karatekid » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:10 pm

aggi wrote:It was notable how high a line Chelsea played at times yesterday. They were clearly well aware that we didn't have anyone who had the pace to beat their defenders.
This. Opposition teams know they can push their back line ten yards further up to squeeze our midfield wlth the knowledge that if we do put one through and beat the linesmans offside flag then their defenders will have plenty of pace to get to the ball in front of our striker. Whoever it is. :(

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by ontario claret » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:17 pm

Lennon was missing, and Brady and Defour just getting their feet under them. We'll be better. Keep the faith. UTC.
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UpTheClaretsFCBK
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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:18 pm

I think the people still piping about ''fast tricky wingers'' and ''pace'' may as well start calling for Dyche's head.

He's been with us 6 years now and he's never signed anyone with those attributes and consistently picked them, in fact, he's actively released people (E.g Stanislas)

He's signed Wells, Vydra, Nkoudou, Sordell, Wells and Lennon. They've all either not really played much or not done that well.

It's obviously not an attribute he see's as being as important and others do.

EDIT:

Andre Gray is probably an exception.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Right_winger » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:10 pm

It’s clear that Dyche see strength, height and physicality as his primary targets. Workhorses and battering rams at the Dyche way. We can’t be having any of those fancy players
With pace and trickery that may actually cause excitement... no no we can’t play like that first and foremost let’s rigidly stick to our defensive positions and not venture past the half way line. Defence at all costs.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:28 pm

FactualFrank wrote:I really don't think we'll bring anybody in, in January. I hope that's not the case, but I think it will be.
Would be utterly ridiculous for us not to bring anyone in it is has been evident for weeks the squad needs a refresh and improvement in quality. At a bit of a loss to understand why some fans think we won’t sign anyone.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by jrgbfc » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:51 pm

Problem is in January players won't want to commit to a side who might be in the Championship come next season. The time to strengthen was over the summer but we inexplicably chose not to. After our previous symbolic efforts in the transfer market I'm not holding out much hope for January.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by tim_noone » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:03 pm

Right_winger wrote:It’s clear that Dyche see strength, height and physicality as his primary targets. Workhorses and battering rams at the Dyche way. We can’t be having any of those fancy players
With pace and trickery that may actually cause excitement... no no we can’t play like that first and foremost let’s rigidly stick to our defensive positions and not venture past the half way line. Defence at all costs.
Tbf the minute he has tried the fancy stuff which we all want really...but against the better sides they suss us out like on Sunday after 15 minutes. We need to adopt the old approach with them and play the smart game against supposed lesser teams.to his credit he as never parked the bus.and if Brady had nicked the one early chance it would have been so different IMO.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by CharlieinNewMexico » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:53 am

Vydra Wood, Vydra Wood, he'll never Vydra Wood (Shamen)

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by houseboy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:59 pm

Top Claret wrote:Dyche needs to pot this 4411 formation it isn't working. Dyche needs to slot Hendrick back into midfield, play 451 and let Brady have some freedom to move forward and attack. We are far to negative and play far to deep.
The defence is also a problem Mee is having a stinker of a season, we really do have a problem with the central defenders. I would even drop Mee for Long, he can't be any worse
Long is a good player and would, currently, probably do a better job.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by houseboy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:01 pm

FactualFrank wrote:I really don't think we'll bring anybody in, in January. I hope that's not the case, but I think it will be.
I think it will depend on league position. If we need the points but are in a reasonable position I think they will invest but if we are looking down and out they will keep one eye on Championship income and hope for the best. I just cannot see our board throwing money at it if they think we will go down.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by houseboy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:12 pm

karatekid wrote:This. Opposition teams know they can push their back line ten yards further up to squeeze our midfield wlth the knowledge that if we do put one through and beat the linesmans offside flag then their defenders will have plenty of pace to get to the ball in front of our striker. Whoever it is. :(
Agreed. We have been around long enough now for teams to do their homework and those that do will find it easy to beat/avoid defeat by us. We really have no threat at the moment which is why fans, me included, are tearing our hair out as to why Vydra, a significant signing and one who genuinely looks the business when he plays, isn't getting a run in the side. He is fast, tricky and can score goals and would be a perfect partner for just about any of our other strikers. His continued ommission is leading me (and others) to conclude that there is a personal problem between him and Dyche. It is obvious where our main problem lies and there appears to be a solution but Dyche isn't using it so what is the problem? Yes the defence is sh!te compared to last year but then if we had more punch up front they would have a lot less to do, let's face it after ther way they performed last season our defenders must be punch drunk by now, they could do with a day off (okay they've had a few days off this season but you get the drift).

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by IanMcL » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:15 pm

Maybe Lennon could be there for a ball over the top.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Jakubs Tash » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:26 pm

houseboy wrote:Agreed. We have been around long enough now for teams to do their homework and those that do will find it easy to beat/avoid defeat by us. We really have no threat at the moment which is why fans, me included, are tearing our hair out as to why Vydra, a significant signing and one who genuinely looks the business when he plays, isn't getting a run in the side. He is fast, tricky and can score goals and would be a perfect partner for just about any of our other strikers. His continued ommission is leading me (and others) to conclude that there is a personal problem between him and Dyche.
Maybe Vydra isn't being picked against the better teams due to his work (or lack of it) when out of possession? I haven't seen enough of him to come to that conclusion but I have read the thoughts of some Derby fans when he was about to sign and many of them didn't think Vydra worked very hard off the ball to win it back.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Jakubs Tash » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:29 pm

IanMcL wrote:Maybe Lennon could be there for a ball over the top.
We need a number 9 - a centre forward. Let's not fall into the trap of 'balls over the top' as this didn't work when we had Gray in the team. It's about stretching the opposition when there is opportunity but having the ability to be a focal point when required too.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by jrgbfc » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:34 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:Maybe Vydra isn't being picked against the better teams due to his work (or lack of it) when out of possession? I haven't seen enough of him to come to that conclusion but I have read the thoughts of some Derby fans when he was about to sign and many of them didn't think Vydra worked very hard off the ball to win it back.
Maybe that is our main problem. Dyche is picking his forwards on work rate and how good they are defensively. How about thinking how we can cause other teams problems? We even looked scared stiff of taking the game to Huddersfield at home.
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Jakubs Tash
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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Jakubs Tash » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:51 pm

jrgbfc wrote:Maybe that is our main problem. Dyche is picking his forwards on work rate and how good they are defensively. How about thinking how we can cause other teams problems? We even looked scared stiff of taking the game to Huddersfield at home.
I completely understand that argument and agree with you to a large degree. But it is also very understandable why Dyche selects players on what they bring to the team defensively against the 'top 6' teams. It was clearly a mistake not to pick Vydra v Huddersfield (particularly given his goal record against them previously) but I suspect we'll see a lot more of him in the next 5 games.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by houseboy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:19 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:Maybe Vydra isn't being picked against the better teams due to his work (or lack of it) when out of possession? I haven't seen enough of him to come to that conclusion but I have read the thoughts of some Derby fans when he was about to sign and many of them didn't think Vydra worked very hard off the ball to win it back.
If that is true it would make sense because Dyche demands hard work. It would also explain why Dyche has problems signing some players because word gets around and maybe some are frightened off by that possibilty.

The problem is if that is what Dyche wants (and it seems to be the case) then we are going to struggle signing a lot of players because many excellent/great players have not been the hardest working. Even now if you watch City, Chelsea, Liverpool etc. you see players strolling around like there is no tomorrow but when called upon they can change a game single handidly. It has been the case for many years, even the legend that is Diego Maradonna would 'disappear' in a game but forget him at your peril.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Silkyskills1 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:34 pm

'Even now if you watch City, Chelsea Liverpool etc. you see players strolling around'

Not too sure about that. On Sunday I will accept that it was relatively comfortable for the Chelsea players to have the ball in their own half but that was because we conceded that area to then after the first 10 minutes or so. Other than that the so-called top teams are constantly on the move, maintaining possession and creating space for forwards to work in. A totally different level to the one we operate in.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by claretspice » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:10 pm

Looking forward to getting Lennon into the team when Defour is playing in a match where we have something of the ball - then I think we'll see the best of him and he'll give us that pace on the break that we don't quite have.

Very few teams outside the top teams in the PL have searing pace up top - most have a focal point, but they have pace out wide and from behind to join in quickly and get beyond that front man. Vokes is good at linking with that sort of player provided the ball into him is right and the support is on hand. We've just got to join the dots together.

If there are games this year when we have Lennon on one flank, Vydra (or indeed Brady) in behind, and JBG or Brady on the other flank, we'll have a pacey threat to rival most teams.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by ClaretAL » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:21 pm

claretspice wrote:If there are games this year when we have Lennon on one flank, Vydra (or indeed Brady) in behind, and JBG or Brady on the other flank, we'll have a pacey threat to rival most teams.
Absolutely agree.

If anyone has been around Gawthorpe that can add some meat to the bones, but i really dont understand what /Vydra has done wrong? Of the cameo appearances he has had I think he has done well and gives us another dimension as opposed to long ball centre or flanks which our opposition know to well now. to have Vydra, Lennon and Brady making 3 different runs would scare the **** out out of most defences, and open up a whole new game for the likes of Defour

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Silkyskills1 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:31 pm

'We've just got to join the dots'

A little more than joining dots. That's a whole new game plan compared to anything I've seen in recent years.

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by Jakubs Tash » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:13 pm

claretspice wrote:Very few teams outside the top teams in the PL have searing pace up top.
...but that doesn't mean you can't have it if you're not a 'top team'.

I like the idea of Lennon right, Brady left and JBG behind a forward but only if the wide players play wide and don't drift in field. Lennon looks a completely different player when playing on the right, hugging the line and facing his full back. Imagine a quick, clever centre forward playing on the shoulder of the centre half with those three and Defour behind them....

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Re: Still badly missing pace up front

Post by karatekid » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:28 pm

If Vydra is being left out because he doesn't work hard enough off the ball to win it back then surely this is something SD knew before he signed him. Isn't it?

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