Heaton should return as no1 goalie

[Goody1975]

No. 1 - Pope
No. 2 - Heaton
No. 3 - Hart

Not a massive amount between Heaton and Hart but believe Heaton is the better communicator, that said Pope is on a different level from the other two.

[Terry Cochrane]

Using Hart as a scapegoat for the defensive frailties is pretty straw clutching if you ask me. Whilst it’s easy to say “oh he doesn’t organise his defence” he was always known for being a good talker to his colleagues. Fact is from what we saw yesterday you can’t apportion blame on Hart for the shocking waste of possession by Westwood, Tarkowski et al time after time.

Weird game yesterday. Could have been 5-5.

[burnleymik]

If anything goes wrong he continues to encourage.

Hart doesn't speak to the rest of his team.

If he concedes a goal he either kicks the goal post down or screams at his defence as he did at Ben Mee this afternoon.

He comes across as a player that wants to play for himself.

Not for Burnley I'm afraid.

I personally watched him last week, when Cork was down recieving treatment for his injury, walk around to most Burnley players on the pitch, trying to gee them up, even though we were 3-0 down, inlcuding coming up to Woods!

To say he doesn't talk to any of the team or that he is only in it for himself is absolute nonsense.

I know people are looking for a scapegoat for the way the defence is playing, but putting it on Hart, who has been is diamond in the rough for us this season, is a mistake.

[Jamesy]

Scapegoat for the way the defence is playing? It’s not just the defence it is the whole ten players in front of him.
Replacing Hart isn’t suddenly going to stop us giving the ball straight back to the opposition in midfield with poorly placed passes. It isn’t going to make us track back better and pick up the runners. It isn’t going to make us cut out silly errors and poor back passes. It isn’t going to stop Ashley Barnes rolling around feigning injury when clearly he hasn’t been touched. Need I go on?
I think Joe Hart has been excellent so far this season under difficult circumstances i.e. busiest keeper in the Premier League, because he is playing behind ten of the poorest outfield players.

[Dy1geo]

From what I have seen this season Hart has won the Jersey and until he makes a few clangers he should be our No 1. Some of his saves this season have been of the top order.

As for so called dressing room griping, Professional footballers get paid by the club and should play to 100% of their ability regardless of who is in the team. It is not a pub side where people spit out the dummy if the manager drops one of their mates. If Pope is fit for the January window I would look at offers for Heaton.

[Bfcshaun]

My take on it is this.
Joe Hart is not at fault for our predicament regarding lack of form however he may be a cause in the patently obvious drop in spirit.
1) Tom Heaton was never dropped due to lack of form nor by conceding shed loads of goals. He was very unlucky with dislocation of shoulder.
2) in my opinion Heaton as been a better keeper than Joe Hart in last three seasons.
3) Bringing in another keeper on decent wages (when we had 3 others and one injured til new year) isn't going to go down well.
4) I think Tom Heaton could understand having to fight Nick Pope for his place back but the situation he has found himself in can not be particularly fulfilling.
It's ok to point Tom Heatons performance at Burton but lets be honest the team that was put out resembled a reserve team and that's what gets players backs up.
I remember le tissier stating when he was dropped to reserves because a manager didn't rate him because he didn't try at full tilt. He held the belief that managers knew how good he was and his weaknesses so playing well in a game he was expected to run riot in wouldn't matter.
Not sure of the answer to current problems but I do think Tom Heaton deserved to be treated better for what he has done in his time here.

[NL Claret]

Allowances can be made for some players but not for the scapegoats.

The Hart thing with fans / UTC posters gets weirder by the day.

[Jamesy]

My take on it is this.
Joe Hart is not at fault for our predicament regarding lack of form however he may be a cause in the patently obvious drop in spirit.
1) Tom Heaton was never dropped due to lack of form nor by conceding shed loads of goals. He was very unlucky with dislocation of shoulder.
2) in my opinion Heaton as been a better keeper than Joe Hart in last three seasons.
3) Bringing in another keeper on decent wages (when we had 3 others and one injured til new year) isn't going to go down well.
4) I think Tom Heaton could understand having to fight Nick Pope for his place back but the situation he has found himself in can not be particularly fulfilling.
It's ok to point Tom Heatons performance at Burton but lets be honest the team that was put out resembled a reserve team and that's what gets players backs up.
I remember le tissier stating when he was dropped to reserves because a manager didn't rate him because he didn't try at full tilt. He held the belief that managers knew how good he was and his weaknesses so playing well in a game he was expected to run riot in wouldn't matter.
Not sure of the answer to current problems but I do think Tom Heaton deserved to be treated better for what he has done in his time here.

I agree with your point no.2 that Heaton has been better than Hart when he was fully fit. However just to reiterate, I believe other areas of the team and tactics need addressing more urgently than the keeper situation. Joe has done well IMO and whichever keeper we have between the sticks is going to be rather busy.

[Lowbankclaret]

Unfortunately this is becoming a pointless discussion.
As much as I like Heaton, there were several saves Hart made the Heaton would not have got to.

There’s some claret tinted glasses looking at Heaton at the moment.

Maybe there’s a point about talking to the back four, maybe Heaton directs them to danger they cannot see which helps the defence.

I don’t see Hart being dropped any time soon, but let’s see.

[Burnley1989]

I am gobsmacked that someone would think that a goalkeeper isn’t heavily involved in organising corners, telling defenders when a man is out wide out of their view etc etc

Anyone that has played football at any level knows how much involvement a keeper has in organising not only his defence, but the whole defensive shape of a team

And how do you know he doesn’t? I’m talking about defending, he’s not responsible for that. I’ve played Saturday football as a defender, with some poor goal keepers, I’ve never blamed them for me losing my man.

[IanMcL]

Heaton commands respect.
Hart is not bringing good fortune.

Time for a change.

[Vegas Claret]

Hart has spent his entire career being a winner, maybe it's the small time mentality elsewhere that is the real issue

[Rick_Muller]

Hart has spent his entire career being a winner, maybe it's the small time mentality elsewhere that is the real issue

Hart has also spent most of his career with a much better defence in front of him - either he learns what our defenders need from him or we need Heaton or Pope back.

[Tall Paul]

Hart has spent his entire career being a winner, maybe it's the small time mentality elsewhere that is the real issue

When's the last time he won anything?

[deanothedino]

When's the last time he won anything?

2016, same year Heaton last won anything. Difference is, Hart has won significantly more things and he's younger!

[Vegas Claret]

Hart has also spent most of his career with a much better defence in front of him - either he learns what our defenders need from him or we need Heaton or Pope back.

or maybe our team should strive to be at his level ? I'm just putting it out there as people are saying Hart has disturbed the balance and maybe it's for the better and the other lads need to pick up their levels. I could also be 100% wrong !!

[Rick_Muller]

or maybe our team should strive to be at his level ? I'm just putting it out there as people are saying Hart has disturbed the balance and maybe it's for the better and the other lads need to pick up their levels. I could also be 100% wrong !!

fair comment.

I do think this issue is at the root cause of our poor form though - and given the option of making the rest of the team get up to Hart's high standards that he expects and has experienced at Man City for example is probably much more difficult (practically nigh on impossible tbh) than getting Hart to understand that our players need more from him along the lines of what Heaton or Pope did/does.

Either Hart learns from what Heaton and Pope did/does for us and gets the back line performing efficiently, or Heaton or Pope should be options to replace him however good he is appearing to be in the nets - all my opinion of course.

[Vegas Claret]

fair comment.

I do think this issue is at the root cause of our poor form though - and given the option of making the rest of the team get up to Hart's high standards that he expects and has experienced at Man City for example is probably much more difficult (practically nigh on impossible tbh) than getting Hart to understand that our players need more from him along the lines of what Heaton or Pope did/does.

Either Hart learns from what Heaton and Pope did/does for us and gets the back line performing efficiently, or Heaton or Pope should be options to replace him however good he is appearing to be in the nets - all my opinion of course.

I won't disagree with any of that, I just think if I am correct (which I probably wont be) then it's a sad indictment of the rest of the team. All conjecture at this point but it seems Dyche has made his mind up that Hart plays regardless at this point

[JTClaret]

You mean Heaton, the goalie who was relegated and had a relegation escape with us?
Only Pope has been part of a successful Burnley team in the Premier League.

Heaton's a great keeper... but I've got to the point now that I just feel the sooner he goes the better.
Blaming the keeper that has conceded 13 but saves god knows how many is just madness.

[ewanrob]

But surely its not just about the how many goals let in or saves made.... or who is the better keeper, the question is...is having Hart in the goals causing a rift with the remainder of the squad.

[Braindead]

So certain people are clamouring to drop literally the only player who can come out of the recent consistently shite performances with any credit?

Is it because he isn't local?

[dougcollins]

No. It's based on a more balanced rationale.

If part of the reason that our defence is not doing what it did last year is because of Hart, in terms of organisation, angles, communication, etc, etc, then whoever is fit out of Heaton and Pope should come back in immediately.

That would be Heaton then.

I really like Joe, he seems like a good bloke and is a top keeper. Has been MOM every game. But so what.

[Giftonsnoidea]

West Ham we’re dropping like a stone with him in the nets last season, when they dropped him results improved dramatically, doesn’t take columbo to put two and two together....

[SGr]

Genuine disbelief that I’m still seeing this argument. Absolutely zero evidence that Hart is in slightest bit responsible for our failings, with him literally being the player of the year thus far.

Seems to me people just want to believe they were right about Hart all along, simply can’t come to terms with the fact he has been our best player this season.

Oh, and if the conspiracy that Heaton not playing is causing unrest and disharmony is somehow true, then that’s even more reason for him to be sold in January. Hard hitting truth.

[ElectroClaret]

....doesn’t take columbo to put two and two together....

No, and even Columbo's raincoat could deduce that if it wasn't for JH, we'd have
run out of fingers keeping count of the goals flying in at our end in most games.

[Joe14]

If we insist on Hart surely we can teach him to catch??? His punches too??? Pants. Couple of good saves, ship 4 or 5 goals and everything is hunky dory

Heaton anyday of the week for me. Just for his halfway line free kicks. Better keeper.

My fear is we are waiting for 6/7/8 goal leak before we drop Hart.

[alwaysaclaret]

If we insist on Hart surely we can teach him to catch??? His punches too??? Pants. Couple of good saves, ship 4 or 5 goals and everything is hunky dory

Heaton anyday of the week for me. Just for his halfway line free kicks. Better keeper.

My fear is we are waiting for 6/7/8 goal leak before we drop Hart.

It's not rocket science, can't believe how many think Joe Hart is the best thing since sliced bread, I was one of the first to say bring him in when we signed him, but only on loan, we simply needed a keeper "on a 3 month deal" I thought maybe with our proven coaching he could get us out of a hole short term, Heaton has been fit for at least the last 4/5 weeks fit and there's absolutely no reason why we shouldn't put him back in he's rightful position and watch the results improve. While Hart is there we will continue to ship goals imo.

[Chip Harrison]

It's not rocket science, can't believe how many think Joe Hart is the best thing since sliced bread, I was one of the first to say bring him in when we signed him, but only on loan, we simply needed a keeper "on a 3 month deal" I thought maybe with our proven coaching he could get us out of a hole short term, Heaton has been fit for at least the last 4/5 weeks fit and there's absolutely no reason why we shouldn't put him back in he's rightful position and watch the results improve. While Hart is there we will continue to ship goals imo.

I wonder why every England manager picked Hart and not Heaton?

Heaton has made 2 world class saves in his time at Burnley. The Zlatan one hit him, but he was in the right place. The one from Charlie Austin was just brilliant. Meanwhile, Hart made 2 world class saves in one game against City.

I rate all 3 keepers, but all the England managers, all the City managers but for Pep, and Sean Dyche can't all be wrong about Joe Hart.
When Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal were paying record breaking fees for goalies, why did none of them come in for Pope or Heaton, knowing they would be fit soon? OK, maybe a fitness risk, but the amount they would have paid for either of them would be peanuts to those clubs.

[Down_Rover]

I wonder why every England manager picked Hart and not Heaton?

Heaton has made 2 world class saves in his time at Burnley. The Zlatan one hit him, but he was in the right place. The one from Charlie Austin was just brilliant. Meanwhile, Hart made 2 world class saves in one game against City.

I rate all 3 keepers, but all the England managers, all the City managers but for Pep, and Sean Dyche can't all be wrong about Joe Hart.
When Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal were paying record breaking fees for goalies, why did none of them come in for Pope or Heaton, knowing they would be fit soon? OK, maybe a fitness risk, but the amount they would have paid for either of them would be peanuts to those clubs.

Southgate rated Heaton above Hart in last World Cup squad and Pep, Torino and Wet Spam got rid

[Ooogeorgeorgeoghani]

I wonder why every England manager picked Hart and not Heaton?

Heaton has made 2 world class saves in his time at Burnley. The Zlatan one hit him, but he was in the right place. The one from Charlie Austin was just brilliant. Meanwhile, Hart made 2 world class saves in one game against City.

I rate all 3 keepers, but all the England managers, all the City managers but for Pep, and Sean Dyche can't all be wrong about Joe Hart.
When Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal were paying record breaking fees for goalies, why did none of them come in for Pope or Heaton, knowing they would be fit soon? OK, maybe a fitness risk, but the amount they would have paid for either of them would be peanuts to those clubs.

If you are in the right place you don't make the world class save it becomes a simple block or catch , last year pope was simply in the right place all the time so not a fluke just good goalkeeping, it's also disheartening to strikers when they constantly see the keeper making a mockery of their best efforts so they stop shooting unless they are certain they can score , when Hart makes the save tipping it over it makes both him and the striker look good , don't get me wrong some of his reflex saves are world class but for me pope is no 1 at our club when fit

[Tall Paul]

I wonder why every England manager picked Hart and not Heaton?

Heaton has made 2 world class saves in his time at Burnley. The Zlatan one hit him, but he was in the right place. The one from Charlie Austin was just brilliant. Meanwhile, Hart made 2 world class saves in one game against City.

I rate all 3 keepers, but all the England managers, all the City managers but for Pep, and Sean Dyche can't all be wrong about Joe Hart.
When Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal were paying record breaking fees for goalies, why did none of them come in for Pope or Heaton, knowing they would be fit soon? OK, maybe a fitness risk, but the amount they would have paid for either of them would be peanuts to those clubs.

With respect to the last part of your post, doesn't the same apply to Hart? None of those clubs tried to sign (or keep) him either. I believe Liverpool were linked with Pope in the summer as well.

[Rick_Muller]

I'm waiting for people on here to understand that goalkeeping isn't just making worldy saves for the cameras...

[Down_Rover]

Genuine disbelief that I’m still seeing this argument. Absolutely zero evidence that Hart is in slightest bit responsible for our failings, with him literally being the player of the year thus far.

Seems to me people just want to believe they were right about Hart all along, simply can’t come to terms with the fact he has been our best player this season.

Oh, and if the conspiracy that Heaton not playing is causing unrest and disharmony is somehow true, then that’s even more reason for him to be sold in January. Hard hitting truth.

Beg to differ, lots of evidence from many posters that you choose to ignore.

Not doubting that Hart has made many saves but if he had a rapport with his defence and mutual trust he would not have to

Most of Heatons saves look routine because he trusts the defenders and anticipates accordingly

Neither Heaton or Pope conceded 13 goals in 3 games in a hat load of seasons and Hart does it for fun

Southgate, Torino, Wet spam and Pep worked it out. How long will it take us

[dsr]

Certainly for the last couple of years I have believed that Heaton, and then pope, were both better than Hart. I haven't changed my mind based on this year's performances.

[Swizzlestick]

Certainly for the last couple of years I have believed that Heaton, and then pope, were both better than Hart. I haven't changed my mind based on this year's performances.

Blimey dsr, we actually agree on something.

(Oh and get back to work! )

[dougcollins]

This isn't about what Joe does or doesn't do in terms of saves or whatever, but what the rest of the team do when he's playing. Nobody can say he isn't a great keeper, but we need to get back to a point where the keeper doesn't need to make those saves- and if that means Tom returns, do it now.

[Vegas Claret]

various websites reporting this morning that Watford, Leeds and Bristol City are keen on him in January

[KateR]

night of the long knives - change him even though he's been the best of a bad bunch in defense

If they 4 in front of him are doing it on purpose I would not only be shocked but thoroughly disappointed.

Defense is not what it was and that is clear for all, what the actual issue is about is not at all clear and would guess even SD and crew are scratching their heads and trying to do things in training to stop it.

Yet I think the proverbial blind man on a galloping horse can see the defense are not getting tight and allowed gaps both between and behind that last wall, that doesn't include the stupid mistakes being made.

Yet it's obviously easier to blame the new kid on the block and the bandwagon get's bigger and bigger with each poor performance.

Am not saying Hart is the best GK but if the defense plays the same with TH in goal the results will be the same and possibly worse, where will the Hart detractors go then because if you got your way and no change?????

[dougcollins]

If there us no change then we're fvcked.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Stephen Ward has been amazing for us. But at the back end of last season and the start of this saw the first time I had ever marked him less than 7 on the ratings (that I can remember). He was a critical player on that back four and as good a leader you can hope for at left back. He was also pretty good going forwards as his goal at Stamford bridge showed.

Taylor has promise. But we have missed Ward and his role in the back 4 immensely.

No doubt Heaton marshalled the defence. But as the senior member of the back 4 we definitely miss Wards experience. He was also pretty good at organising those in front of him - another problem area!

Harts perfromances have been as good as we can expect from any of our keepers. If people can pick out any real howlers I would be very surprised.

[dougcollins]

Good point re Ward.
Hart hasn't made any howlers, it's not about that.

[ClaretAL]

It depends what you call a howler to be honest. A keeper at this level should not be conceding goals through his legs, and punching palming a ball away when a simple catch in totally none challenge situation, seems to fit in with the making everything look like Hollywood instead of doing the basics. I will be flamed for this but I am of the opinion that due to the amount of goals we are conceding the back 4 are concentrating on defending deep due to the lack of trust in Joe and thus wanting to keep on top of a goal line clearance, where as before with Tom and Nick the trust was there and we defended higher reducing the shots on goal and less the chance of theatre, Hollywood type saves. People will produce stats of shot on target and saves but they were good saves as they had to beat the iron curtain to get that shot away.

[boatshed bill]

It depends what you call a howler to be honest. A keeper at this level should not be conceding goals through his legs, and punching palming a ball away when a simple catch in totally none challenge situation, seems to fit in with the making everything look like Hollywood instead of doing the basics. I will be flamed for this but I am of the opinion that due to the amount of goals we are conceding the back 4 are concentrating on defending deep due to the lack of trust in Joe and thus wanting to keep on top of a goal line clearance, where as before with Tom and Nick the trust was there and we defended higher reducing the shots on goal and less the chance of theatre, Hollywood type saves. People will produce stats of shot on target and saves but they were good saves as they had to beat the iron curtain to get that shot away.

You may have a point here.
My take on it is that we've had 2 goalkeepers who have been very well drilled in our system, now we have a newcomer. regardless of the quality of saves made we need our defensive unit to be as one, this should include the goalkeeper. Many posts seem to imply a defensive 4 + 1 rather than a 5.

[elwaclaret]

night of the long knives - change him even though he's been the best of a bad bunch in defense

If they 4 in front of him are doing it on purpose I would not only be shocked but thoroughly disappointed.

Defense is not what it was and that is clear for all, what the actual issue is about is not at all clear and would guess even SD and crew are scratching their heads and trying to do things in training to stop it.

Yet I think the proverbial blind man on a galloping horse can see the defense are not getting tight and allowed gaps both between and behind that last wall, that doesn't include the stupid mistakes being made.

Yet it's obviously easier to blame the new kid on the block and the bandwagon get's bigger and bigger with each poor performance.

Am not saying Hart is the best GK but if the defense plays the same with TH in goal the results will be the same and possibly worse, where will the Hart detractors go then because if you got your way and no change?????

Sorry KateR sounds very much like you are saying "but if it doesn't work what do we do next? At worst the same as is happening at the moment.

Not advocating Hart in or out I'll leave it to those that are paid to know and hope they're as good as we think they are (in the main) for a while yet before I get too twitchy.

[ClaretAL]

You may have a point here.
My take on it is that we've had 2 goalkeepers who have been very well drilled in our system, now we have a newcomer. regardless of the quality of saves made we need our defensive unit to be as one, this should include the goalkeeper. Many posts seem to imply a defensive 4 + 1 rather than a 5.

Just 1 more observation from the last match and Ben's fantastic goal line clearance, the first person to pull him up from the back of the net after his amazing clearance was a fellow defender, where was Joe?

[cricketfieldclarets]

Just 1 more observation from the last match and Ben's fantastic goal line clearance, the first person to pull him up from the back of the net after his amazing clearance was a fellow defender, where was Joe?

Getting up from the dive he had made and preparing for the corner Now this IS desperate

[tim_noone]

Just 1 more observation from the last match and Ben's fantastic goal line clearance, the first person to pull him up from the back of the net after his amazing clearance was a fellow defender, where was Joe?

I may be mistaken but wasn't the last match at west ham? where Ben mee gifted west ham a goal after a poor clearance.

[ClaretAL]

Getting up from the dive he had made and preparing for the corner Now this IS desperate

Instead of dealing with it in phase 1 and thanking Ben for saving his arse? come on mate your better than that, but all about opinions.

[NL Claret]

Getting up from the dive he had made and preparing for the corner Now this IS desperate

Not sure if it's desperate or weird. At work yesterday I explained the UTC phenomenon about Joe Hart to fans of a number of other clubs. There was a lot of amusement.

[Dejavu]

Hart has been a busted flush for years. He doesn't inspire confidence in his back 4. He seems to transmit nervousness to the players around him and has done so for years now.

Bring back Heaton!!