Barnes and Wood

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:09 pm

Very well made point Lancaster. Hendrick would play for me every single time.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:10 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm astonished that we are not playing 4-5-1 with Hendrick involved somewhere every game to be perfectly honest.

Heaton OR Hart

Lowton Long Mee Taylor

Gudmundsson Hendrick Defour Westwood Brady

Wood

I`d settle for this against Palace. You? The only problem is we all know Dyche will play 2 in midfield and we will get swamped.

Giftonsnoidea · Post by **Giftonsnoidea** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:20 pm

If he hasn’t learned that 4-4-2 doesn’t work when we’re so out of form then heads should roll really

Giftonsnoidea · Post by **Giftonsnoidea** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:32 pm

NRC wrote:In that we wil never play the 352 that our squad screams we should be doing, I would agree with 451 ,but it has to be Wood as the 1. Quicker than Vokes, more able to shield the ball than Barnes, more opportunistic than either.

That leaves the 5 as Brady/McNeil, Cork, Defour, JBG/Lennon, Vydra, with Cork and Defour as deeper lying

Wood has been playing awful though, Vokes has at least has scored last game so deserves to start for me.

Lennon must be dropped and JBG in his place, Brady needs games to get match fit.

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:35 pm

Heaton
Lowton Tarky Mee Taylor
Defour Cork
JBG Barnes Brady
Wood

This has to be the 11 we aim to play once everyone is fit and available. You can argue Vokes over Wood at the moment but Wood is a confidence player. Once he scores one he'll score a bag full. He needs support in behind him though and Barnes offers that really well.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:00 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Obviously I'd be happier if the results and performances were better, but I accept that with our relative budget we're always going to be up against it and a target of a point per game is realistic. Over the last 12 months or so we're meeting that target. The issue is that expectations have been raised by the run of form at the start of last season.

You started by saying it's first and foremost a results business so let's just talk about results for a moment. How many points per game do you expect us to be achieving in this league?

Not looking 2nd best v teams that I expect to be in and around us especially at home.

Getting a footballing lesson off Huddersfield, Fulham, Wolves and Watford were hard to watch.
The Newcastle , Leicester and Cardiff games were from viewing as we played very little football, created very little in terms of real chances and IMO can count our lucky stars they yielded 4 points when at best we deserved 2.
Like I say it's only my opinion, but the thrashings have been that, and could and should have been by more.

It's not something I enjoy watching.

I want to see some fight, and at the very least looking like we set out to win a game.
The set up is the same ( set up not personal) every game.
We rarely adapt to who we are playing and catch them out tactically. ( Newcastle did that to us Monday , it worked a treat )

It's the same set up, same slow pedestrian passing before a long diagonal to a big man to feed off the scraps ( if there's a player within a 20 yard radius of him )

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:12 pm

MACCA wrote:Not looking 2nd best v teams that I expect to be in and around us especially at home.

Getting a footballing lesson off Huddersfield, Fulham, Wolves and Watford were hard to watch.
The Newcastle , Leicester and Cardiff games were from viewing as we played very little football, created very little in terms of real chances and IMO can count our lucky stars they yielded 4 points when at best we deserved 2.
Like I say it's only my opinion, but the thrashings have been that, and could and should have been by more.

It's not something I enjoy watching.

I want to see some fight, and at the very least looking like we set out to win a game.
The set up is the same ( set up not personal) every game.
We rarely adapt to who we are playing and catch them out tactically. ( Newcastle did that to us Monday , it worked a treat )

It's the same set up, same slow pedestrian passing before a long diagonal to a big man to feed off the scraps ( if there's a player within a 20 yard radius of him )

That's all well and good and I agree with some of it, but you didn't answer the question. Here it is again:

You started by saying it's first and foremost a results business so let's just talk about results for a moment. How many points per game do you expect us to be achieving in this league?

BOYSIE31 · Post by **BOYSIE31** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:15 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:it isn't because hendrick has never played in a 'number 10' role for us. he might be in a similar place positionally but his job there has never been what is widely regarded as a 'number 10'.

its more about pressing, collecting second balls, carrying the ball and interchanging with defour and cork when they go forward. and it produced out best football and best results last season.

So we making out for Hendrick to be this world beating midfielder now - even his ex international manager said he needs to up his game.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:19 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:So we making out for Hendrick to be this world beating midfielder now - even his ex international manager said he needs to up his game.

quite literally no one has done that.

he's been one of our best midfielders this season and our best football and results last season came when he was in the team.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:25 pm

He's our most athletic midfielder Boysie, and we are screaming out for someone with athleticism.

Problem is that a lot of people on here don't like us playing with only one up front, and it can be tricky to get it right, especially under a lot of pressure.

But we are struggling like mad with 4-4-2 at the moment for whatever reason. We have to do something

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:52 pm

Tall Paul wrote:That's all well and good and I agree with some of it, but you didn't answer the question. Here it is again:

You started by saying it's first and foremost a results business so let's just talk about results for a moment. How many points per game do you expect us to be achieving in this league?

Same as all the other leagues in England 0 points for a loss, 1 for a draw, 3 for a win.

Or are you asking me to predict for each team we play?

In short though, I'd "expect" us to pick up more than 1 point from Huddersfield and Newcastle at home. You can throw in Watford to if you like, but as I mentioned it's the manner of the defeats as much as the defeats themselves.

Should we really be content or expecting to only be competing with the likes of Huddersfield and Cardiff In terms of points return?

I'd have liked to have progresses in 12 months, and that doesn't specifically mean purely points wise.
We've gone backwards, and may as well not have finished 7th or got into Europe, as we've failed to capitalise on it.

Baring Gibson ( who doesn't look like he'll play much for the first team anyway ) we haven't improved our starting 11 in terms of genuine first team challengers for 2 Windows. Its arguable We've barely improved the squad Gibson a part, and any CB would have been an improvement than leaving ourselves short.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:21 pm

MACCA wrote:Same as all the other leagues in England 0 points for a loss, 1 for a draw, 3 for a win.

Or are you asking me to predict for each team we play?

I thought it was a fairly straightforward question, apparently not.

I'm asking you to forget the performances for a moment, look at the big picture and tell me what your realistic expectations are for our results over a season in the Premier League and put a number on it in terms of points per game. A total number of points will do if you find that easier.

Should we really be content or expecting to only be competing with the likes of Huddersfield and Cardiff In terms of points return?

Yes, we probably should, given that we have very similar income and budgets. Of course, we should strive to be the best we can and it's possible to have the odd season like we had last year but it's just not possible for any club to consistently outperform their budget over a long period of time.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:37 pm

Tall Paul wrote:I thought it was a fairly straightforward question, apparently not.

I'm asking you to forget the performances for a moment, look at the big picture and tell me what your realistic expectations are for our results over a season in the Premier League and put a number on it in terms of points per game. A total number of points will do if you find that easier.

Yes, we probably should, given that we have very similar income and budgets. Of course, we should strive to be the best we can and it's possible to have the odd season like we had last year but it's just not possible for any club to consistently outperform their budget over a long period of time.

I'll go for 46 points.

I'll leave the 2nd bit as like Accrington and many others show, you can. ( but depends what you think a long period of time is )

Income and budgets don't determine your final league position.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:57 pm

MACCA wrote:I'll go for 46 points.

I'll leave the 2nd bit as like Accrington and many others show, you can. ( but depends what you think a long period of time is )

Income and budgets don't determine your final league position.

Thanks for answering. I think 46 is a little bit ambitious and goes some way to explaining why you're so critical, but fair enough.

What Accrington and others (including Leicester as the obvious one) have shown is that it's possible to overperform their budgets over a short period of time ie one or two seasons.

Of course income and budgets don't determine final league position, bit along with luck they are the biggest factors. There are studies that have shown this.

We've been outperforming our budget and expectations for the last five years. It's not sustainable, especially when our competitors are spending more and more.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:40 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Thanks for answering. I think 46 is a little bit ambitious and goes some way to explaining why you're so critical, but fair enough.

What Accrington and others (including Leicester as the obvious one) have shown is that it's possible to overperform their budgets over a short period of time ie one or two seasons.

Of course income and budgets don't determine final league position, bit along with luck they are the biggest factors. There are studies that have shown this.

We've been outperforming our budget and expectations for the last five years. It's not sustainable, especially when our competitors are spending more and more.

Fair enough.

I think 40 has to be the aim and I'd expect 46 purely based on 3 successive seasons in the top flight, including a 7th placed finish including Europe. Don't think it's that excessive to expect that.

To go backwards ( on and of the field ) though since our over acheivement isn't great. Sadly come the 2nd week in August 2019 ( should we be lucky ) it will show.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:52 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:our best results and our best football last season came when we had defour, cork and hendrick in midfield.

they keep the ball well, move it through the units quickly and in tight spaces, and interchange well. when one presses or carries the ball forward, they drop in and cover so we keep our shape.

we absolutely need to go back to 451, the problem is vokes up top on his own as he's the least mobile but as long as we get up to support him - which hendrick does very well, he's excellent at picking up second balls - we should be ok. that or we back wood to drastically improve as he was decent in that formation last season, when we had defour.

Absolutely spot on for me is that

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:20 am

Spijed wrote:According to Wiki David Brooks had played 30 matches in three seasons for Sheff Utd.

Was there anything to suggest he was good enough to play for us?

He stood out like a tick on a dogs bollock when on tv last season, enough for Eddie Howe to scoop him up, play him in his natural position and reap the reward.

There are so many good young players around shining at other clubs, exciting, making mistakes sure but getting the opportunity.

The one we saw early season, Dwight McNeil is rewarded with relegation back to the u23's.

We are strangled by the success we have had recently and it is no longer working. Woolworths were a household institution but stood still for years and were destroyed by failing to adapt to the market whilst other lesser brand names at the time thrived by offering the same but with a different strategy.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:30 am

JohnMac wrote:He stood out like a tick on a dogs bollock when on tv last season, enough for Eddie Howe to scoop him up, play him in his natural position and reap the reward.

There are so many good young players around shining at other clubs, exciting, making mistakes sure but getting the opportunity.

The one we saw early season, Dwight McNeil is rewarded with relegation back to the u23's.

We are strangled by the success we have had recently and it is no longer working. Woolworths were a household institution but stood still for years and were destroyed by failing to adapt to the market whilst other lesser brand names at the time thrived by offering the same but with a different strategy.

I'd like to see some youngsters come through, including McNeil, but to introduce them to a team that's struggling could set them back years. It isn't fair on them, or good for the long term.

MattBFC · Post by **MattBFC** » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:12 pm

For me we have to give this partnership a go.

We just don’t play as well with Vokes in the starting line up unless he has somebody with a lot of movement in support such as Ings, Gray or (weve only seen flashes) with Vydra.

A lot of the issues this season have stemmed from the complete lack of movement up top so the midfield has nobody to pass to, loses possession and we’re defending again.

Defour and Cork not strong enough defensively as a pair so it means we’re then struggling both going forwards and protecting the back line.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:47 pm

When Barnes came on against Newcastle the first thing he did was to deliberately back into the defender and give away a free kick. WHY DOES HE SEEM TO BE MORE FOCUSED ON GETTING A FREE KICK THAN CONTROLLING THE BALL, LAYING IT OFF THEN SPRINTING FORWARD INTO SPACE? Imo he is still our best forward and let's hope he sorts himself out because we need him now more than ever.

Rant over

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:57 pm

No Defour, so here is their chance!

High press Ashley please!

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:20 pm

So glad Dyche has gone back to giving these guys a long run together

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:38 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:I thought this would be our partnership if Wood and Vydra didnt work yet not seen either. They were pheonomenal at times together last season. Complimented each other so well. None more so than west ham away.

Cant understand why it hadnt been been tried yet.

That said Vokes has more than earnt his spot.

But defending from the front is important and barnes and wood are more mobile in that respect.

Have to agree JDRobbo

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:52 pm

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:38 pm

Another top performance from the aforementioned duo, tonight against Man Utd. They appear to have a very good underdog one another. Best combination we have and long may they keep bringing us goals!

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:16 pm

Another outstanding display from our front two, with each getting on the scoresheet again. The thing that concerns me is that Base pairing are clearly the go to strikeforce, yet if one of them now gets injured, we can’t ask Crouch to start games… Well not in my mind we can’t. The whole shape of the team will change and this is something that we need to rectify in the close season.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:17 pm

jdrobbo wrote:Another outstanding display from our front two, with each getting on the scoresheet again. The thing that concerns me is that Base pairing are clearly the go to strikeforce, yet if one of them now gets injured, we can’t ask Crouch to start games… Well not in my mind we can’t. The whole shape of the team will change and this is something that we need to rectify in the close season.

Thats why vokes shouldvve stayed imo.

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:21 pm

Wood is far better than Vokes, quicker, fitter and a better finisher. Vokes left because he wanted to, he knew he wouldn't get a start.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:22 pm

First half they couldn't handle them.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:23 pm

Top Claret wrote:Wood is far better than Vokes, quicker, fitter and a better finisher. Vokes left because he wanted to, he knew he wouldn't get a start.

Thats not the point though. Its what happens if wood gets injured. Or sent off. Or out of form...

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:25 pm

What these two offer that Vokes doesn’t is mobility. They both eat up a lot of ground and Wood in particular makes great runs off the shoulder. For all the criticism of him being offside he scored two by playing this way today.

I suspect if Barnes or Wood got injured we would give Vydra his chance, or maybe switch to more of a 4-5-1 with someone (perhaps Hendrick) playing in the hole.

Edit - you’re always going to be weaker if a player gets injured so I don’t see why people are making a huge issue out of it. It’s unrealistic to expect the same calibre of player on the bench.

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:26 pm

Agree crickets. We will have a problem if Wood gets injured has all the pressure will be on a 38 year old

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:30 pm

Rileybobs wrote:What these two offer that Vokes doesn’t is mobility. They both eat up a lot of ground and Wood in particular makes great runs off the shoulder. For all the criticism of him being offside he scored two by playing this way today.

I suspect if Barnes or Wood got injured we would give Vydra his chance, or maybe switch to more of a 4-5-1 with someone (perhaps Hendrick) playing in the hole.

Edit - you’re always going to be weaker if a player gets injured so I don’t see why people are making a huge issue out of it. It’s unrealistic to expect the same calibre of player on the bench.

Agree with all that.

Amd also agree that we are weaker with injuries. Its just my opinion that we made ourselves unnecesarily weaker.

Hopefuly we get the 3 or 4 wins we need without anything happening.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:34 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Agree with all that.

Amd also agree that we are weaker with injuries. Its just my opinion that we made ourselves unnecesarily weaker.

Hopefuly we get the 3 or 4 wins we need without anything happening.

I think we let Vokes go because he wanted to go. It’s not ideal but then again neither is having an unhappy player around.

JohnDearyMe · Post by **JohnDearyMe** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:37 pm

Didn't realise until the commentator said it this evening that they had both played together at Brighton when they were promoted from division 1

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:50 pm

jdrobbo wrote:Another outstanding display from our front two, with each getting on the scoresheet again. The thing that concerns me is that Base pairing are clearly the go to strikeforce, yet if one of them now gets injured, we can’t ask Crouch to start games… Well not in my mind we can’t. The whole shape of the team will change and this is something that we need to rectify in the close season.

I wouldn't worry about that. There isn't a team in the league that can play the same way if their first choice attaching contribution is injured, and we're no different.

If one of Wood and Barnes is injured, the other one leads the line and either Vydra comes in - or McNeil shifts into the number 10 position which I suspect will ultimately allow him to run football matches.

For the time being, enjoy how well these two are combining. Proper hand full.

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:52 pm

Interesting...my first thought would’ve been to put Hendrick back there, not McNeil.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:23 pm

jdrobbo wrote:Interesting...my first thought would’ve been to put Hendrick back there, not McNeil.

I think the last 3 seasons show that Hendrick should be last to go there for any number of reasons.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:46 pm

What a pass by Barnes
What a first touch by Wood
What a save by Heaton (x5)

Working today so had to keep up by text but what a show. These saves/shots/passes etc should not go understated "just" because we were playing Brighton.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:32 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Thats not the point though. Its what happens if wood gets injured. Or sent off. Or out of form...

There will be the usual massive over reaction on this forum of course.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:32 am

Reading back through this thread it just goes to show how much nonsense we all talk, and I include myself in that.

Fairly unfathomable (after last season’s performances) that the only game before roughly Dec 1st that Dyche started Barnes and Wood together was in Athens, and they were looking good until the sending off with Wood getting the away goal. He then dropped Wood for the home leg in favour of Vokes (who missed a hatful) and the pair weren’t seen again until recently.

They are a natural combo.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:42 am

Easy to say that now, though, with Wood benefiting from good supply. He's definitely a confidence player and he's only as good as his service, but he's bang in form. There were times earlier in the season where you'd be forgiven for thinking he wasn't even on the pitch and in that respect Vokes offered more in terms of letting opposition defenders know they were in a game, but we've found an natural balance since the Everton debacle (Heaton & McNeil in, Hendrick wide, Bardsley and Westwood hitting form) and we're reaping the rewards. Barnes will never not impact a game. Even at his worst he's a handful.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:58 am

If Barnes or Wood get injured, then I think it depends on the status of JBG/Brady. If either are available, fit and ready (big ask, I know), then McNeil filling in the role of Wood/Barnes could work and sticking with the fruitful 4-4-2.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:25 am

jdrobbo wrote:Interesting...my first thought would’ve been to put Hendrick back there, not McNeil.

I don't dislike Hendrick in that role, but I think it's a more natural fit for McNeil. In his short career with us he's shown an ability to get into goal scoring positions, intelligent movement between the lines to find space and an ability to keep the ball moving with his back to goal. The way he created the second goal yesterday from what was effectively a number 10 position is exactly what I have in mind.

He's got lots of attributes to play wide, but he still worries me a tad defensively at the moment and the fact he's quick enough rather than out and out quick makes me think that fulcrum position will be his best role in the long term.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:38 am

claretspice wrote:I don't dislike Hendrick in that role, but I think it's a more natural fit for McNeil. In his short career with us he's shown an ability to get into goal scoring positions, intelligent movement between the lines to find space and an ability to keep the ball moving with his back to goal. The way he created the second goal yesterday from what was effectively a number 10 position is exactly what I have in mind.

He's got lots of attributes to play wide, but he still worries me a tad defensively at the moment and the fact he's quick enough rather than out and out quick makes me think that fulcrum position will be his best role in the long term.

Agree McNeil could be a really good option in the hole as number 10.

I'm glad you've finally recognised that Hendrick wasn't playing CM at that time

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:45 am

claretspice wrote:I don't dislike Hendrick in that role, but I think it's a more natural fit for McNeil. In his short career with us he's shown an ability to get into goal scoring positions, intelligent movement between the lines to find space and an ability to keep the ball moving with his back to goal. The way he created the second goal yesterday from what was effectively a number 10 position is exactly what I have in mind.

He's got lots of attributes to play wide, but he still worries me a tad defensively at the moment and the fact he's quick enough rather than out and out quick makes me think that fulcrum position will be his best role in the long term.

How do you play McNeil as a number 10 without playing 1 up front because neither Barnes or Wood are good enough to play on their own, maybe a diamond midfield with 2 up top ?
---------Cork
Hendrick Westwood
------McNeil
Barnes Wood

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:56 am

jdrobbo wrote:Interesting...my first thought would’ve been to put Hendrick back there, not McNeil.

No chance.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:07 am

AndyClaret wrote:How do you play McNeil as a number 10 without playing 1 up front because neither Barnes or Wood are good enough to play on their own, maybe a diamond midfield with 2 up top ?
---------Cork
Hendrick Westwood
------McNeil
Barnes Wood

To be fair, both Barnes and Wood have played up front on their own with some success on the past - notably last season. And I think we're talking about McNeil playing ahead of the midfield, probably further forward than Hendrick did last season.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:54 am

The secret to being able to play the No10 role is being able to play with your back to goal. Hedrick clearly can't, or not well enough, he's much more effective further back in midfield with the game in front of him. Wether Dwight can play that role we'll never know until he's tried, but why weaken one area in order to try him in another. It makes more sense to leave Dwight where he is playing so well, and put Vydra in, who is a more natural No10.

brigante · Post by **brigante** » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:09 pm

I hadn’t realised until yesterday that Wood and Barnes used to play together at Brighton