Barnes and Wood

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:41 am

Just a thought...

Barnes and Wood haven’t started a single league game for Burnley as a partnership, this season. Not one.

Last season, Barnes and Wood started six games together: the first being at West Brom away.

The record: played 6, W3, D2, L1 (11pts)

I wonder if this pair are due an outing?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:45 am

Only if we're dropping Defour, or perhaps alternatively sticking him on the left wing (as we did occasionally in his first season with us).

Monday night demonstrated amply that if we're playing with 2 strikers, we need more athleticism in midfield than Defour in particular and also Cork can offer. Simple as that, I'm afraid.

The other point is that Vokes has done pretty well this season, so for him to make way for two strikers who haven't pulled up any trees this season - Wood was notably less effective on Monday than Vokes, for all the chances that fell his way - would be harsh in the extreme.

For me, the question we have to crack is how we go back to Vokes up front on his own to allow more support to Defour in particular in midfield, without Vokes becoming isolated. Not sure what the answer is to that.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:47 am

I thought this would be our partnership if Wood and Vydra didnt work yet not seen either. They were pheonomenal at times together last season. Complimented each other so well. None more so than west ham away.

Cant understand why it hadnt been been tried yet.

That said Vokes has more than earnt his spot.

But defending from the front is important and barnes and wood are more mobile in that respect.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:53 am

Vokes is certainly offering more than Wood at the moment but Barnes and Wood have a good understanding of each other's game. At the beginning of the season I was thinking we should move Vokes on but I've changed my mind. Vokes would benefit playing alongside a different type of striker like he did with Ings and not another big man.

theroyaldyche · Post by **theroyaldyche** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:53 am

Itl take all season and they wont get the combo right

BOYSIE31 · Post by **BOYSIE31** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:09 am

jdrobbo wrote:Just a thought...

Barnes and Wood haven’t started a single league game for Burnley as a partnership, this season. Not one.

Last season, Barnes and Wood started six games together: the first being at West Brom away.

The record: played 6, W3, D2, L1 (11pts)

I wonder if this pair are due an outing?

Been a strange one why they have not played together thats for sure.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:22 am

I’m in total agreement with spice that we can’t play two strikers and Defour.

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:30 am

And that therefore presents the discussion...

Defour is without doubt, the most technically gifted footballer I’ve ever seen in the Burnley shirt. He is far superior to the vast majority of our players, but are we wasted with him at the moment, whilst confidence is completely shot at?

I totally agree with Tony and spice, but I do wonder if we should be looking at using to from Hendrick, Cork and Westwood, in the absence of Defour.

It can be dull to watch at times, but I sense there is an understanding there... One of sticking to basics and getting the ball into the box as quickly as possible. It’s a huge call and I’m an absolutely massive fan of our Belgian wizard, but I would consider dropping him for a short period and using him extensively in the last 30 minutes of games.

BOYSIE31 · Post by **BOYSIE31** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:48 am

I dont get this Belgium wizard - good player but way past his best and done nothing since coming back into the team and file with Brady who everyone was hoping would be back to where they were before their injuries.
Its December tomorrow and both have done nothing which makes the inactivity in the tranfer window in the summer even more strange.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:50 am

BOYSIE31 wrote:I dont get this Belgium wizard - good player but way past his best and done nothing since coming back into the team and file with Brady who everyone was hoping would be back to where they were before their injuries.
Its December tomorrow and both have done nothing which makes the inactivity in the tranfer window in the summer even more strange.

Need to get Defour into a 3 man midfield.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:53 am

ClaretTony wrote:I’m in total agreement with spice that we can’t play two strikers and Defour.

Yep, it shows why we often play Hendrick as a number 10.

Also it shows the lack of planning or execution as to why we didn't get a proper number 10, or a upgrade on The Hendrick role in the last few windows.

We seem to always rely on a bit of luck by leaving 1 area of our squad paper thin with no back up or plan B, should a injury, suspension or lack of form hits.

Since SD arrived, we've had it with every department within the team at 1 point or another.

Scary to think it's happened or been allowed to happen, for so long.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:54 am

It's been said a million times, the midfield aren't good enough in two's and the forwards aren't good enough on their own.

It's what happens when you buy most players from the championship.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:04 am

I thought Defour and Cork looked better on Monday than in previous matches. Our main problem was poor movement off the ball (ball watching) due to a lack of fitness or loss of confidence. I would stick with a similar formation but with JBG and McNeil playing instead of Brady and Lennon.

Back Four
JBG Defour Cork McNeil
Vokes Wood

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:08 am

our best results and our best football last season came when we had defour, cork and hendrick in midfield.

they keep the ball well, move it through the units quickly and in tight spaces, and interchange well. when one presses or carries the ball forward, they drop in and cover so we keep our shape.

we absolutely need to go back to 451, the problem is vokes up top on his own as he's the least mobile but as long as we get up to support him - which hendrick does very well, he's excellent at picking up second balls - we should be ok. that or we back wood to drastically improve as he was decent in that formation last season, when we had defour.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:09 am

It is always an option, but it's a bit "back to basics", and I think there are other options we've not yet tried, such as giving one of Vydra (albeit he's had one go at West Ham that didn't work, he'd done it twice when we won), Brady or even JBG an opportunity to play as a slightly more forward thinking version of Hendrick's role between the lines, so that we balance numbers in midfield and support to the front better.

Getting our best midfield athlete - I.e. Hendrick - back into the team ought also to be a priority, whether in the centre of the park in place of Cork, or in one of the wide roles where he can also help supplement the middle of the park. We've got to stop teams stretching us through the middle.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:09 am

Defour is easily the best player ive seen for us too.

But he hasn't hit the heights this season. We also need to get back to basics. He is wasted in our current team. And although ive not always been his biggest fan, Hendrick has looked our best player in midfield this season but has been the one who has been dropped most.

I would be tempted to play Hendrick and Cork in 442 if we go down that route.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:10 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:It's been said a million times, the midfield aren't good enough in two's and the forwards aren't good enough on their own.

It's what happens when you buy most players from the championship.

I'd have certainly took Brooks from Sheff Utd, and IMO our most poorer performers in the midfield have been Cork and Lennon.

JBG has been the shinong light, whilst Westwood and Hendrick have done ok, the latter particularly having improved and IMO unlucky to have been dropped.

I don't think it's purely down to players purchased from the league below, more to do with the set up and system they are being asked to play.
It removes any sort of freedom regards to attacking intent these players may have or have shown prior to arriving here.

Managers have favourite systems and set ups, many of them don't or can't adapt from them.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:13 am

MACCA wrote:I'd have certainly took Brooks from Sheff Utd, and IMO our most poorer performers in the midfield have been Cork and Lennon.

JBG has been the shinong light, whilst Westwood and Hendrick have done ok, the latter particularly having improved and IMO unlucky to have been dropped.

I don't think it's purely down to players purchased from the league below, more to do with the set up and system they are being asked to play.
It removes any sort of freedom regards to attacking intent these players may have or have shown prior to arriving here.

Managers have favourite systems and set ups, many of them don't or can't adapt from them.

Question is though, had we been more expansive would we ever have got close to finishing 7th?

It's a system that has obvious limitations but it's also a system that's delivered success for us as well.

There are teams that play more expansive football, but will never be as successful as we've been.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:24 am

MACCA wrote:I'd have certainly took Brooks from Sheff Utd, and IMO our most poorer performers in the midfield have been Cork and Lennon.

JBG has been the shinong light, whilst Westwood and Hendrick have done ok, the latter particularly having improved and IMO unlucky to have been dropped.

I don't think it's purely down to players purchased from the league below, more to do with the set up and system they are being asked to play.
It removes any sort of freedom regards to attacking intent these players may have or have shown prior to arriving here.

Managers have favourite systems and set ups, many of them don't or can't adapt from them.

Young players like Brooks and Maddison sure, they will improve massively with experience.

Late 20s with most of their career played in the championship a big no from me.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:27 am

MACCA wrote:I'd have certainly took Brooks from Sheff Utd, and IMO our most poorer performers in the midfield have been Cork and Lennon.

JBG has been the shinong light, whilst Westwood and Hendrick have done ok, the latter particularly having improved and IMO unlucky to have been dropped.

I don't think it's purely down to players purchased from the league below, more to do with the set up and system they are being asked to play.
It removes any sort of freedom regards to attacking intent these players may have or have shown prior to arriving here.

Managers have favourite systems and set ups, many of them don't or can't adapt from them.

According to Wiki David Brooks had played 30 matches in three seasons for Sheff Utd.

Was there anything to suggest he was good enough to play for us?

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:29 am

Spijed wrote:Question is though, had we been more expansive would we ever have got close to finishing 7th?

It's a system that has obvious limitations but it's also a system that's delivered success for us as well.

There are teams that play more expansive football, but will never be as successful as we've been.

I totally agree, if playing 451 gets the results then so be it. First and foremost it's a results business and we need results.

It's quite possible we may have ended up ONLY winning 6 home league games in this whole calendar year. That is relegation form right there, whisky also not exactly drawing in masses of fans to come/stay and watch.

There's been injuries, band transfer window, relaxing as it was job done, transfer window again, Europe, more injuries and Joe Hart all used as reasons for our "poor form"

IMO, poor form shouldn't be lasting 365 days regardless as to what has occurred. We've not looked capable of stringing a few results together for a very long time.

There just looks a total lack of ideas on how to get out if this very long rut we are in.
Someone said post match Monday, we look very much like WBA did in their last 18 months in this league.
A few results and excuses to paper over the cracks, some very bad decisions from the powers that be, put up with the results of those decisions that little bit too long, then acted when it was far too late.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:30 am

With quoon on this. Got to keep Defour in the team and that means by playing either Hendrick or Vydra in a 4-4-1-1.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:30 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:Young players like Brooks and Maddison sure, they will improve massively with experience.

Late 20s with most of their career played in the championship a big no from me.

The Murphy brothers from Norwich too.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:30 am

Spijed wrote:According to Wiki David Brooks had played 30 matches in three seasons for Sheff Utd.

Was there anything to suggest he was good enough to play for us?

If you had watched him then yeah. Major stand out in the Sheffield derby.

Eddie Howe is more likely to go for that type of player than Dyche though.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:34 am

Spijed wrote:According to Wiki David Brooks had played 30 matches in three seasons for Sheff Utd.

Was there anything to suggest he was good enough to play for us?

Only 30? Or do you mean 30 starts?

Yes he was tearing up the league below, on the radar of the national team and great to watch.

Put it 1 way for the cash we wasted on Wells and Walters, it was an absolute no brainer to *anyone who saw Sheff Utd play half a dozen times.

*which in terms of "our market" I presume we would have been very much able to spot the talent.

It seems Eddie did from much further afield in terms of location and markets.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:34 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:If you had watched him then yeah. Major stand out in the Sheffield derby.

Eddie Howe is more likely to go for that type of player than Dyche though.

Beat me to it

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:41 am

I don’t recall many people suggesting that we sign Brooks 12 months ago. It’s easy to look wise after the event.

beddie · Post by **beddie** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:41 am

Our problem is the same one we've had for some considerable time, there's simply not enough pace in the midfield, until we get things moving quicker we'll continue to struggle. It's a position we've never addressed. Two quality midfielders and were a different team (imo) of course.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:42 am

Rileybobs wrote:I don’t recall many people suggesting that we sign Brooks 12 months ago. It’s easy to look wise after the event.

Exactly.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:43 am

MACCA wrote:It's quite possible we may have ended up ONLY winning 6 league games in this whole calendar year.

No it isn't.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:56 am

Arguments for or against whatever attacking partnership we choose are pointless until the midfield is sorted out.
We get outnumbered too often, and when we don't, we move the ball too slowly. Our wide men and forwards are static, we never work the oppositions defence, and their keeper might as well bring a deck chair.
I'm amazed that SD can watch our games, and not see where the problem is, why it's a problem, and do nothing to address it. Week after week its the same players, same style, same result. People who say we picked up against Newcastle, forget how poor Newcastle have been, and the fact that we were 2 down after 20 mins. Goals change games. Would we have pushed on and played like that with the score 0-0, would they have sat back so much if they weren't holding onto a lead.

BOYSIE31 · Post by **BOYSIE31** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:56 am

quoonbeatz wrote:our best results and our best football last season came when we had defour, cork and hendrick in midfield.

they keep the ball well, move it through the units quickly and in tight spaces, and interchange well. when one presses or carries the ball forward, they drop in and cover so we keep our shape.

we absolutely need to go back to 451, the problem is vokes up top on his own as he's the least mobile but as long as we get up to support him - which hendrick does very well, he's excellent at picking up second balls - we should be ok. that or we back wood to drastically improve as he was decent in that formation last season, when we had defour.

But that is just going back to Hendrick in the number 10 role - and it looks like Dyche has finally seen sense in that one.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:02 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:But that is just going back to Hendrick in the number 10 role - and it looks like Dyche has finally seen sense in that one.

Yes, things have been so much better since SD has "seen sense" and stopped playing Hendrick there.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:02 pm

Tall Paul wrote:No it isn't.

How many is it?
Thought I'd heard / read we've only won 6 so far this calendar year.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:08 pm

MACCA wrote:How many is it?
Thought I'd heard / read we've only won 6 so far this calendar year.

We've won two this season and I'm sure you remember the five in a row we won in March/April.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Tall Paul wrote:We've won two this season and I'm sure you remember the five in a row we won in March/April.

Sorry it was purely home form, which won't exactly bring or keep bums on seats and fans happy.
Also it's still usually still relegation form, only 6 home wins in a season.

Edited now, cheers

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:19 pm

MACCA wrote:Sorry it was purely home form, which won't exactly bring or keep bums on seats and fans happy.
Also it's still usually still relegation form, only 6 home wins in a season.

Edited now, cheers

Nice goalpost shift.

We've only won three league games at home so far this year. I reckon most supporters will be happy if we win three out of our remaining four.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:29 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Nice goalpost shift.

We've only won three league games at home so far this year. I reckon most supporters will be happy if we win three out of our remaining four.

Not shifting anything it's what I either read or heard very recently, may have been when I 're watched Monday's game, or what I've read on here.

Whatever the fact actually is, I was high lighting it isn't only recent form as some would make out, it's creeping towards 12 months and 2 failed transfer windows worth.

But if we are all happy with that, fair play, here's to the next 12 moths being the same as the last.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:31 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:But that is just going back to Hendrick in the number 10 role - and it looks like Dyche has finally seen sense in that one.

Worked pretty tidily this time last year in fairness, when we were about 4th in the league with him playing in that role. Some people forget that when they suggest Dyche was out of his mind in playing Hendrick there then.

My concern with that set up now is partly that I don't think Hendrick off Vokes really works - it's a bit static - but also that it worked well last year because we were able to keep the ball a bit better because Defour and Cork (not to overlook Tarkowski and Lowton in particular at the back) were on song. We didn't have loads of possession, but when we did, we were able to build through midfield with effective short passes, as well as using the option to go longer periodically. I'm not sure we're defending well enough, or keeping the ball well enough, to play the same way with the same personnel right now, and that's why I'd look at whether someone like Brady in that role might give us a bit more balance.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:33 pm

Tall Paul wrote:
We've only won three league games at home so far this year. I reckon most supporters will be happy if we win three out of our remaining four.

Most? Happy?

How about all and absolutely delighted. We don't look like winning 3 from the next 10 if our last 11 months forms anything to go by.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:36 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:But that is just going back to Hendrick in the number 10 role - and it looks like Dyche has finally seen sense in that one.

it isn't because hendrick has never played in a 'number 10' role for us. he might be in a similar place positionally but his job there has never been what is widely regarded as a 'number 10'.

its more about pressing, collecting second balls, carrying the ball and interchanging with defour and cork when they go forward. and it produced out best football and best results last season.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:42 pm

MACCA wrote:Not shifting anything it's what I either read or heard very recently, may have been when I 're watched Monday's game, or what I've read on here.

Whatever the fact actually is, I was high lighting it isn't only recent form as some would make out, it's creeping towards 12 months and 2 failed transfer windows worth.

But if we are all happy with that, fair play, here's to the next 12 moths being the same as the last.

We've played 30 league games in 2018 and collected 29 points, which isn't great but it's nowhere near as bad as you're making out and just under a point a game would more than likely keep us up.

And if we're talking the last 12 months it's 38 points in 37 games.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:51 pm

Rileybobs wrote:I don’t recall many people suggesting that we sign Brooks 12 months ago. It’s easy to look wise after the event.

Agreed on that.

He looks a good player. But he had played part of 1 seasonat championship level. Where Bamford ripped it up at the same age.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:54 pm

Tall Paul wrote:We've played 30 league games in 2018 and collected 29 points, which isn't great but it's nowhere near as bad as you're making out and just under a point a game would more than likely keep us up.

If that's good enough for you and you're happy with the points returns and performances then that's good.

I've been concerned with the results of transfer windows, and on the pitch.
I've also not been that impressed with the approach taken towards the windows or on the pitch.

Each to their own, we all have things we think we've done good, bad and inbetween. I base my decisions, actions and feelings towards what I want to see, and at the moment they couldn't be further than what's being served up.

I don't mean it's down to SD, it's the club as a whole.

Giftonsnoidea · Post by **Giftonsnoidea** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:55 pm

4-5-1 with vydra as no.10

Ill send you my bank details Sean, its the least you can do

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:18 pm

MACCA wrote:If that's good enough for you and you're happy with the points returns and performances then that's good.

I've been concerned with the results of transfer windows, and on the pitch.
I've also not been that impressed with the approach taken towards the windows or on the pitch.

Each to their own, we all have things we think we've done good, bad and inbetween. I base my decisions, actions and feelings towards what I want to see, and at the moment they couldn't be further than what's being served up.

I don't mean it's down to SD, it's the club as a whole.

Obviously I'd be happier if the results and performances were better, but I accept that with our relative budget we're always going to be up against it and a target of a point per game is realistic. Over the last 12 months or so we're meeting that target. The issue is that expectations have been raised by the run of form at the start of last season.

You started by saying it's first and foremost a results business so let's just talk about results for a moment. How many points per game do you expect us to be achieving in this league?

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:28 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Arguments for or against whatever attacking partnership we choose are pointless until the midfield is sorted out.
We get outnumbered too often, and when we don't, we move the ball too slowly. Our wide men and forwards are static, we never work the oppositions defence, and their keeper might as well bring a deck chair.
I'm amazed that SD can watch our games, and not see where the problem is, why it's a problem, and do nothing to address it. Week after week its the same players, same style, same result. People who say we picked up against Newcastle, forget how poor Newcastle have been, and the fact that we were 2 down after 20 mins. Goals change games. Would we have pushed on and played like that with the score 0-0, would they have sat back so much if they weren't holding onto a lead.

Spot on!

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:34 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Obviously I'd be happier if the results and performances were better, but I accept that with our relative budget we're always going to be up against it and a target of a point per game is realistic. Over the last 12 months or so we're meeting that target. The issue is that expectations have been raised by the run of form at the start of last season
You started by saying it's first and foremost a results business so let's just talk about results for a moment. How many points per game do you expect us to be achieving in this league?

It is not just the relative position in the league though, is it? Our performances this season, barring, I would suggest 2 1/2 games, have been absolutely dire, insipid, devoid of any ideas and bereft of anything which leads to a conclusion other than relegation. I think every fan can accept that on club budgets, we should be near the bottom but the pure ineptitude of the performances so far are mind-boggling. We are losing, horribly, yet the guy who in which many trust, changes nothing and keeps a diggin`.

Something has to give regards Dyche`s seemingly utter intolerance to change, otherwise, in my opinion, this manager who has worked wonders for us, has to be replaced. Football is a business, after all. The chain of responsibility has to work its way to the top and decisions have to be made.

Anyway...back to Barnes and Wood

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:53 pm

Giftonsnoidea wrote:4-5-1 with vydra as no.10

Ill send you my bank details Sean, its the least you can do

In that we wil never play the 352 that our squad screams we should be doing, I would agree with 451 ,but it has to be Wood as the 1. Quicker than Vokes, more able to shield the ball than Barnes, more opportunistic than either.

That leaves the 5 as Brady/McNeil, Cork, Defour, JBG/Lennon, Vydra, with Cork and Defour as deeper lying

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:55 pm

I'm astonished that we are not playing 4-5-1 with Hendrick involved somewhere every game to be perfectly honest.