Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

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cally611
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Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby cally611 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:08 am

A chap I know goes home and away has done for years and seems to have a fair level headed idea of the game and he reckon s Hart is our main problem Go back to when Heaton was in goal he was very vocal especially to the back4 he then gets injured in come Pope who has trained with Heaton and is also very vocal to the back4. He then gets injured enter Hart who is a good keeper but no where near as vocal so perhaps defence need that kick up the a9se to preform at there best. Sell Hart in January he s been in shop window now make a few quid Somebody must want him Heaton back in goal and lindergard on bench and Pope gettin fit soon hopefully Or is that just to simple a very good keeper in command of the box?
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Cleveleys_claret
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Cleveleys_claret » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:17 am

Dont think Hart has done anything wrong but he just doesnt fit into how we set up at present. In a perfect world I think it would be ideal if a bigger than us club came in for him so that he would happily leave us with both parties being happy.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby dermotdermot » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:24 am

He's a jinx. I wish he hadn't been signed.
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby cricketfieldclarets » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:24 am

You can hear him as much as Heaton. People didnt want to like him before he came and dont want to admit it now.

He has been man of the match in pretty much every game
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby IanMcL » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:27 am

He has performed very well....but we lose....time for a shake up.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby beddie » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:29 am

Maybe. I suggested on another post that when things are not going well as a Manager you have to look at every position, even your own. Tom is vocal and I'm sure that help his defence, which must add confidence to them. Its time to put him back in and see if we benefit from that. I like Dyche but ( imo ) one of his failings is not changing things quick enough. I know we've been limited in several positions so far but the time is right for Tom to be brought back in.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Rileybobs » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:36 am

Maybe worth remembering that Tom Heaton’s organisational and vocal skills led us to the heady heights of 16th when he last completed a season between the sticks.
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Joe14
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Joe14 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:43 am

Rileybobs wrote:Maybe worth remembering that Tom Heaton’s organisational and vocal skills led us to the heady heights of 16th when he last completed a season between the sticks.



Yes and surely that's better than a relegation?? :roll:

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Rileybobs » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:44 am

Joe14 wrote:Yes and surely that's better than a relegation?? :roll:


It’s one position higher than we currently sit, which isn’t in the relegation zone.
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Colburn_Claret » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:45 am

No

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Joe14 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:46 am

Rileybobs wrote:It’s one position higher than we currently sit, which isn’t in the relegation zone.


You know as well as I that we will be in the relegation zone very soon if we don't try something.

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Jakubs Tash
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Jakubs Tash » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:49 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:You can hear him as much as Heaton. People didnt want to like him before he came and dont want to admit it now.

He has been man of the match in pretty much every game

He has been decent if we're being fair about it. But he's almost been MOM in most games by default as he's facing so many shots he's bound to save some. For what it's worth, he's also glued to his line much of the time when crosses come in but this doesn't seem to get much of a mention.

Any other team who have let the number of goals in that we have would have changed keeper by now...

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piston broke
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby piston broke » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:51 am

Billy Mercer coaches them and will advise SD who is the form man.
If he calls Joe Hart that’s good enough for me.
Tom didn’t impress in Greece or Burton.
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Funkydrummer » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:58 am

To be honest, we have problems at the moment all over the park.

However, I think that the main problem is the midfield that :-

1. Offers very little protection for the back four, and
2. Provides very little service to the front players.

The defence daren't come out too far because they are mindful of being overrun by the,
generally, much quicker attackers, because of the lack of protection from the midfield.

The attackers don't make too many runs because they know, invariably, that a pass will
not be forthcoming. There is nothing more frustrating in football than making great, incisive
runs that no bugger can see or provide the incisive pass for.

Yes, I think Hart may be a problem as things stand, but I don't think it's all of his making tbh.

There endeth the lesson. :D
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby ClaretAL » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:08 pm

Already posted this on another thread, but for me indirectly yes he is.

"I was once a plaudit of Hart, but the more I have watched him this season, the more I can see why our defence has been so poor. Our back line used to stand off around the 30yds from goal, where as now they are on the 18 yrd line, and I think this is because they are very conscious of Hart not coming off his line and also never catching a ball and electing to punch, or palm away, which inevitably means the ball could land anywhere, so they need to be in distance to react to that, and what is also evident is the amount of players who rush back to defend the goal line behind hart fully expecting the ball to go past him, so where Dyche has confidence in Hart, I dont think the rest of the team share that belief, and means there is a lot more space for the opposition to attack and their midfield carve us open time after time. Purely my own opinion with nothing to back up any of it part from observation."
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby bfcpete » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:09 pm

I have to agree with FunkuDrummer about our midfield. I also have a lot of mates who have season tickets at City.

Guardiola came in and wanted a new keeper 'who was good with his feet'. The main consensus from City fans seems to be that the longer Hart was there, he became a louder, more unsettling voice in the dressing room.

No we hear of team meeting info being leaked to the press. Anyway i can only report what i hear and see. But aside from the midfield not performing Hart is the major change in the team.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Herts Clarets » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:16 pm

Our problems stem from midfield. Lack of pace, creativity, power and the ability to maintain possession of the ball. That draws more and more pressure onto the defence and keeper and eventually something will give. We used to see similar under Howe, when he insisted on playing a midfield 4, including Chris McCann and playing out from the back. We didn't have the players to make this formation and style of play a success and people will remember we shipped goals at an alarming rate.

We are in a similar position now, problems stemming from midfield. We could play Heaton and Hart in goal, we would still concede goals given the above failings. Hart is a scapegoat, Heaton very popular with the fans, but changing keepers is not the answer.

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Siddo
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Siddo » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:34 pm

How many threads are we going to have on Joe Hart? Is this the 4th?
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby burnleymik » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:37 pm

We are poor all over the park at the moment, that can't be down to Hart. Claiming Hart isn't vocal is crazy, you can hear him plenty. He is desperate for the team to do well, did you not see his passion and crazy runs at the end of that Newcastle match?

I genuinely believe our problems are down to tactics, confidence, lack of leadership on the field.
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby bf2k » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:41 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:You can hear him as much as Heaton. People didnt want to like him before he came and dont want to admit it now.

He has been man of the match in pretty much every game


Spot on. You don't win medals, titles and countless international caps if you can't marshal a back line.

The best keeper in the world would struggle with our defensive shape and frailties at the moment.
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Il Duce » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:54 pm

I do rate Heaton and I can understand why people want him to start based around his leadership and organisational skills... what fails me is when people criticise Hart for ‘sticking to his line’ when this is also a problem that Heaton has too. Our only keeper that comes for crosses regularly and effectively is Pope.
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby cricketfieldclarets » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:56 pm

ClaretAL wrote:Already posted this on another thread, but for me indirectly yes he is.

"I was once a plaudit of Hart, but the more I have watched him this season, the more I can see why our defence has been so poor. Our back line used to stand off around the 30yds from goal, where as now they are on the 18 yrd line, and I think this is because they are very conscious of Hart not coming off his line and also never catching a ball and electing to punch, or palm away, which inevitably means the ball could land anywhere, so they need to be in distance to react to that, and what is also evident is the amount of players who rush back to defend the goal line behind hart fully expecting the ball to go past him, so where Dyche has confidence in Hart, I dont think the rest of the team share that belief, and means there is a lot more space for the opposition to attack and their midfield carve us open time after time. Purely my own opinion with nothing to back up any of it part from observation."


And same response from me as on that thread. And as above with people wanting to just make out he is at fault because they didnt want him then and dont want him now.

Like people saying they cant hear him as much as heaton, saying we defended a high line without him is the same. Its a nice suggestion. But its completely untrue.

Image
Image

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Bordeauxclaret » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:04 pm

I don’t think he’s the main problem. I do see it as a problem with the amount of goals we are conceding.
I think Heaton organises his defence better and has proved it over a number of years. It’s not just about how loud or how many times you shout.

On top of that I think Heaton is a better keeper anyway.
I can’t recall many, if any, saves Hart has made that I wouldn’t have expected Heaton or Pope to save if they were fit and included. That’s not to say they are not good saves.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Goobs » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:07 pm

It's amazing how much better players are perceived to be when they are out injured for a while. Add in the fact that Tom Heaton's Great Aunt once walked her dog on Townley and it suddenly gets magnified tenfold.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby CombatClaret » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:13 pm

Blaming Hart is a real causality/correlation logic fail.
He's played very well but because he's the only new signing who's regularly playing he must be the issue?
I think we should look to the other 10 chaps first before we blame Hart who's done very little wrong.
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Bordeauxclaret » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:15 pm

Goobs wrote:It's amazing how much better players are perceived to be when they are out injured for a while. Add in the fact that Tom Heaton's Great Aunt once walked her dog on Townley and it suddenly gets magnified tenfold.


Are we disputing that Heaton’s a good keeper now as well?

I can understand people’s cases to stick with Hart on his performances but...

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby NL Claret » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:33 pm

The main problem is the midfield. End of.

This Hart thing is weird.
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Erasmus » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:38 pm

I think Hart has been an excellent keeper for us this season, hardly put a foot wrong and made some excellent saves. However, I just don't think he fits easily into the tight team ethos that has made us so good. I can't put my finger on it, but when I see him I just don't get the impression he is one of the boys as Heaton and Pope clearly were.
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Goobs
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Goobs » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:32 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Are we disputing that Heaton’s a good keeper now as well?

I can understand people’s cases to stick with Hart on his performances but...

Where did I say he wasn't a good keeper? Personally for me he is a very good keeper and has been a good servant, however I think people are looking for hope at the moment and building him up to be much better than he is / was.

IMO when fully fit he would be my 3rd choice behind Pope (IF he can come back playing like last season) and then Hart who I don't feel has done much wrong thus far and has kept the score down or kept us in games on many occasions this season.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Bordeauxclaret » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:40 pm

Just out of interest who do you think is perceiving Heaton to be much better just because he’s been out injured?
Also who do you think saying he’s improved tenfold because of him being local?

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Goobs » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:52 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Just out of interest who do you think is perceiving Heaton to be much better just because he’s been out injured?
Also who do you think saying he’s improved tenfold because of him being local?

I really can't be bothered to scroll through all the different Hart v Heaton type posts but there have been several occasions that people have mentioned his "local connections" and as for the injury thing we see this nearly everytime a first teamer is out, that upon their return things will be rosy because they are back.

IMO Heaton is not the answer to all our problems and I see nothing in his past to suggest he will improve us at Hart's expense.
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:00 pm

Yes, he is.

I've gone over it in great depth on other posts and argued with others about it. Before I was willing to be convinced that it wasn't the case, but now I am convinced he is the issue.

Dyche likes to have a rigid defensive system in place, and a major piece of that has changed. You cant expect Hart to come in and play behind the back four like Heaton did, and Pope did - remember it was easier for Pope to mimic what was needed as he was already learning the role for a long while before he was needed. In a similar way, you couldn't expect Heaton to replace Hart in the successful Man City team that won the titles.

The real problem is that the change is almost irreversible - in that putting Heaton or Pope back in wont instantly get results because the back 4 confidence is shot and those who support Hart to be there would say "I told you so..."

But it doesn't change my opinion that Hart is the reason our performances have declined and we are worse defensively as a result of it.

[disclaimer - Hart does make some fantastic saves during our games, and does get MoM awards because he performs well (for the cameras), but Heaton or Pope wouldn't need to because the defence would be working as it should be]

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby bumba » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:06 pm

Heaton played in goal against Burton an looked terrible could of done better with both goals an we still lost to a struggling team two leagues below that cannot be blamed on Joe Hart.
We only won 5 games between November 26th an the end of the season that also cannot be blamed on Hart.
People need to wake up an realise the man in charge is the issue, he needs to evolve an change tactics/style but can he? Results over 12 months prove he cant so far

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby ElectroClaret » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:07 pm

NL Claret wrote:
This Hart thing is weird.


Its not just weird, its absolutely ridiculous.

Scapegoatism at its finest.
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:11 pm

some people can only see the colour of the pixels others can see the whole picture


Eric Cantonot

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Tall Paul
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Tall Paul » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:36 pm

bumba wrote:We only won 5 games between November 26th an the end of the season that also cannot be blamed on Hart.


This is not true.

Why do posters keep misrepresenting stats to make it look like we've been doing worse than we actually are?

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby moaninclaret » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:42 pm

Hart isn't a leader like Heaton, I hope Tom starts tomorrows game, he is a better keeper, he leads his team, and he can be heard shouting instructions from his goal area, Hart is a glory hunter and if he pulls off a few good saves then hes happy, he doesn't communicate with the rest of the team like Tom. Hart could well be a problem but not the MAIN problem. Heaton should start the Palace game and lets see what happens, we will certainly hear his vocal contributions at the very least. Come on SD give the lad a chance.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby cricketfieldclarets » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:59 pm

moaninclaret wrote: Hart is a glory hunter


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: FFS
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby DCWat » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:09 pm

Funny how our keeper coach is lauded for Heaton’s and Pope’s progress but now that Hart is in net, are we to assume that he has a problem that can’t be coached - i.e. effective communication with the back four?

Unless there are character issues (speculation at best) to continually blame one of our only performing players of being the issue, seems a bit unfair.
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby kindonesque » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:11 pm

spot on there moanin..Heaton is the best goalkeeping captain I've ever seen. We need him back on the pitch

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby burnleymik » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:19 pm

moaninclaret wrote: Hart is a glory hunter


He came to Burnley. One thing I think we can safely say about Hart is that he isn't a glory hunter. :D

I think it's natural to look for reasons for this recent poor form, but I think too many people are looking in the wrong direction, in fact looking at one of the few positives we have been able to take from this season so far.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Joe14 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:28 pm

Leaking goals left right and centre and some posters can't understand why people are suggesting a change of keeper. :shock:

Does somebody have to knock in 6 or 7 before we consider a keeper change?? Or are we all happy if we only ship 2-5 goals a game???? Yes there are problems all over the park but we need to work from the back and we need to change things quick before we are stuck in the relegation quagmire.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby jojomk1 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:35 pm

The main problem is the manager

He assembles the squad for each season (ok, I take on board budgets, but he must be prepared to work within them eg not keep going on about needing to break our transfer record fee when he wanted Jay Rod)
He picks the team
He decides the tactics
He makes reasoned/timely substitutions during a game if things are not going to plan
He decides on coaching needs to improve players strengths/weaknesses

The ideas that Hart or a lack of midfield control are part of the problem may be someway correct, but not the main issue

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby houseboy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:41 pm

I really can't believe I'm reading this. We want to improve things so people are suggesting dropping the guy who has saved us quite a few of the points that we do have. Not forgetting that some think that the whole problem with the team may be stemming from Heaton. I don't know if this is true but if it were I'd see him out of the club this window because then you get players running the team. Look at John Terry at Chelsea, if you believe even half the stories he managed to get rid of a couple of managers there it seems.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Jamesy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:52 pm

bf2k wrote:Spot on. You don't win medals, titles and countless international caps if you can't marshal a back line.

The best keeper in the world would struggle with our defensive shape and frailties at the moment.


You are bang on with this. Yes, even if we stuck De Gea behind our outfield 10 we would still be in same predicament. If we want to scapegoat anyone it should be Sean Dyche. These next two months are probably going to be the biggest examination of his management credentials. He has got limited resources currently to sort it out, which is partly of his own making. It will be interesting to see what team he selects tomorrow and how he sets them up.
For now I will be happy if we stink Selhurst Park out and come away with a nil nil draw.

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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Vegas Claret » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:06 pm

I saw this floating around on the internet, no idea who's done it or if it's correct - but if it is then it's pretty telling

Image
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boatshed bill
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby boatshed bill » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:07 pm

I don't believe he's as good for us as Nick Pope was, but look at our defending.
Poor closing down , ball watching, and half-hearted challenges.

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Rileybobs
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Rileybobs » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:07 pm

moaninclaret wrote:Hart isn't a leader like Heaton, I hope Tom starts tomorrows game, he is a better keeper, he leads his team, and he can be heard shouting instructions from his goal area, Hart is a glory hunter and if he pulls off a few good saves then hes happy, he doesn't communicate with the rest of the team like Tom. Hart could well be a problem but not the MAIN problem. Heaton should start the Palace game and lets see what happens, we will certainly hear his vocal contributions at the very least. Come on SD give the lad a chance.


I’m absolutely loving the magnitude of Heaton’s ‘vocal contributions’. Until he got injured I had absolutely no idea how important Tom’s ‘get out’ shouts were but now we’re in a poor run of form it’s all become clear. The weird thing is though, when Heaton was vocalising the **** out of matches we were in an almost identical position to where we are now.

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Rileybobs
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Rileybobs » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:10 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:I saw this floating around on the internet, no idea who's done it or if it's correct - but if it is then it's pretty telling

Image


Those stats shows absolutely nothing regarding vocal contributions per game though.

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Rick_Muller
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Re: Could Joe Hart be the main problem?

Postby Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:12 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Those stats shows absolutely nothing regarding vocal contributions per game though.

No, but everything about commanding your area which in turn gives confidence to your back four. You do know not all communication is verbal don’t you...? ;)


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