Pope - coming for crosses

claretcarrot93 · Post by **claretcarrot93** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:54 pm

Catching crosses probably won us just as much points than with his saves without really realising. It kills time and the team get upfield. You dont realise it till he isnt playing. The last five today he would have claimed at least three of them. We have a top keeper on our hands.

Not a dig at Joe as he is a fine shot stopper. I just think we need to keep Pope at all costs.

JohnDearyMe · Post by **JohnDearyMe** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:08 pm

Agreed. Hart doesn't get off his line enough to claim crosses and relieve pressure. Should have happened a few times today.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:10 pm

I would have Pope in goal as soon as he is ready.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:11 pm

100% agree, Harts done nothing much wrong but Pope is head and shoulders above him when it comes to commanding his area and taking the pressure off.

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:14 pm

What about Popes dodgy feet though ? JH has been four perfect tbf

claretcarrot93 · Post by **claretcarrot93** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:15 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:What about Popes dodgy feet though ? JH has been four perfect tbf

Our defenders dont pass it out so our keeper doesn't need to. Stick to what we are good at

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:19 pm

Foot* even . Though don’t get me wrong Pope would have come for a couple of those crosses ( as would TH) some of them were low and awkward though

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:19 pm

You don't play for England 75 times and win the PL title if you are a poor goalkeeper!

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:21 pm

claretcarrot93 wrote:Our defenders dont pass it out so our keeper doesn't need to. Stick to what we are good at

True , it’s rare to see so many out of hands kicks these days . Though TH when last fit last season was playing more from the back when possible . Hart is high quality don’t let anyone doubt it but he plays to HIS strengths

claretcarrot93 · Post by **claretcarrot93** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:22 pm

Spijed wrote:You don't play for England 75 times and win the PL title if you are a poor goalkeeper!

Who said he was poor?

EarbyClaret · Post by **EarbyClaret** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:39 pm

I'm sure Hart was playing to instructions today - imagine coming for crosses in those conditions - and the chances of dropping them?

I appreciate it's an aspect of the game where the Pope of last season was better - but who's to say what's going to happen when he comes back - bearing in mind coming for crosses in a crowd creates the possibility of an awkward landing - thinking about the circumstances of Tom's injury last season.

Personally I think the focus on Joe Hart has been disproportionate - the under performance of whichever CB pairing has been playing and the (lack of) defensive CM screen in front of them has been far more damaging.

If you look at today - one of Joe's less convincing performances but a clean sheet all the same - was because the CBs in particular and the whole defence as a unit all played well.

Pope was never exposed to this level of scrutiny last season because he was so superbly protected for the most part.

paulatky · Post by **paulatky** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:46 pm

He never comes for crosses,
Was very noticeable today and could have cost us

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:48 pm

I can imagine seeing Joe Hart's passionate celebration at the end took the edge of the win for some.

Hugging others players, perhaps they do like him after all?

Big performances from Mee, Tarky and Bardsley again, perhaps they've found some confidence in Hart?

Had the predictable Hart is the problem line rolled out a few times in foundation pre match and groans when the team was announced. We like our Tom, we want our Tom back so we won't like Joe Hart until our Tom is back in. He communicates and organises his defence.

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:54 pm

Spijed wrote:You don't play for England 75 times and win the PL title if you are a poor goalkeeper!

Don't think anyone is denying Hart is a decent Keeper and a good one but... there are times Pope (and Heats) would have come for the ball with a huge shout ... but Hart doesn't ... I am sure he has lost this from his game somewhere because a younger Joe H commanded his area more tgan the current one does.

Come on Clarers fans get behind the team they need us

UTC

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:57 pm

I don't believe people think like that NL.

They just want to see the best team available to us, and are inclined to think that would include Pope.

gawthorpe_view · Post by **gawthorpe_view** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:02 pm

Are we playing on Good Friday?, He might get a game if we are.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:28 pm

Had an email on Friday from Statsbomb (subscription data service) to advertise their new keeper analytics which they claim revolutionises keeper performance analysis. They had Nick Pope as the example. Interestingly it rated him one of the best at positioning (each shot they compare the position to a “perfect” position). His worst attribute was “pass to an teammate who is under immediate pressure” which ironically, obviously not due to him, is similar to the big thing that has changed this season for us, the times opponents win the ball off us within 40 yards of our goal.

If Pope is to better Hart, yes he is good at crosses, but that kind of distribution has to improve.

Cirrus_Minor · Post by **Cirrus_Minor** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:34 pm

My thoughts exactly today, thought Hart struggled with the crosses and the conditions. Poles height help us a lot last season.

No Ney Never · Post by **No Ney Never** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:10 pm

Pope our best goalie imo. Before his injury it was clear that he was working on his kicking after he'd been with the England squad judging by the improvement he was making. His positioning, claiming and holding the ball, ability to get down quickly, etc were all superb, just his distribution needed work. If he continues to work on it once fit again, hell become England no.1.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Cirrus_Minor wrote:My thoughts exactly today, thought Hart struggled with the crosses and the conditions. Poles height help us a lot last season.

Isn't Hart slightly the taller?

Cirrus_Minor · Post by **Cirrus_Minor** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:23 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Isn't Hart slightly the taller?

Yes your right by 0.05 metre (2 inch in real money), so must have longer arms or bigger hands because he seemed to just catch crosses whilst Hart tends to punch more.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:24 pm

Coming for crosses like that has also injured 2 of our keepers but let’s forget about that.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:30 pm

claretcarrot93 wrote:Our defenders dont pass it out so our keeper doesn't need to. Stick to what we are good at

Our keeper passes it out every time he gets the ball, be it long or short. Hart's distribution is far, far, far better than Pope's. His long kicks are straight and accurate and he is good with the ball at his feet under pressure. Pope is as good a shot stopper, better at coming for crosses but much worse with his feet. There's little between the players but Hart has earned the shirt and Pope will rightly have a tough time getting it back this season.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:31 pm

bfccrazy wrote:Coming for crosses like that has also injured 2 of our keepers but let’s forget about that.

Spot on there and let's not forget we have yet to see whether either Pope or Heaton will be the keepers they were. Krull got back to first team 'keeping but i have no idea how good he was post shoulder dislocation.
On the subject the apparent shoulder injury to Glenn Murray didn't last long did it?

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:31 pm

Cirrus_Minor wrote:Yes your right by 0.05 metre (2 inch in real money), so must have longer arms or bigger hands because he seemed to just catch crosses whilst Hart tends to punch more.

Basically height is not the issue, it's a lot to do with confidence. Tom, although shorter, came for his share of high balls.
Refering to BFC Crazy's post, yes it has caused serious injury to our best to goalies in decades. can't believe that we would prefer a safety first approach to catching crosses vs injury.

Steddyman · Post by **Steddyman** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:54 pm

Has nobody considered that one of the reason Joe doesn't come for crosses is because his confidence is low. He probably only feels safe when on his goal line. One of his main reasons for coming to us was to learn from Billy Mercer and to gain back his confidence.

I'm sure with a few more clean sheets to his name he will start to venture further out.

gc14 · Post by **gc14** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:19 pm

Does anyone think Hart has played with an exceptional back four in front of him for most of his career ?
He hasn't been under pressure like he is now ? Charging off his line, taking command of his area ?

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:21 pm

gc14 wrote:Does anyone think Hart has played with an exceptional back four in front of him for most of his career ?
He hasn't been under pressure like he is now ? Charging off his line, taking command of his area ?

Absolutely.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:21 pm

Spijed wrote:You don't play for England 75 times and win the PL title if you are a poor goalkeeper!

No that's true. But Pope is better coming off his line to collect crosses. I think he would have caught the ball to stop Linverpools second goal

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:23 pm

Pope is a real keeper, who can do it all. Hart caused mayhem today.

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:51 pm

The goalkeeping experts haven't analysed the Burnley goal today when Ryan came for a cross he wasn't favourite for and then got stuck in a mass of players.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:16 pm

Did Hart have a shot on target to save today?

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:26 am

I think the points about conditions today and risk of injury coming for high balls are very valid.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:26 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Did Hart have a shot on target to save today?

1. Apparently. No I dont remember it either.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:58 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:1. Apparently. No I dont remember it either.

Cheers.

So how can anyone slate Hart when he barely had anything to do?

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:09 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Cheers.

So how can anyone slate Hart when he barely had anything to do?

There were a couple of crosses he spilled and flapped at. In the conditions perhaps to be expected.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:12 am

So basically it's people not giving him time of day because he isn't Heaton or Pope?

Ok, makes sense now.

atlantalad · Post by **atlantalad** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:48 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Did Hart have a shot on target to save today?

He did....... the brilliant flick and unintentional strong header back by Mee - would have been a spectacular og.

Was not on MOD though.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:20 am

Tom Heaton rarely moved out of his 6 yard box over his first season and was often criticised on here for it.

As for yesterday I think Joe was correct not to get involved with competing for most of those high balls in that atrocious weather.

Frustrating, maybe, but the defence as a unit were much better and dealt with most things more than comfortably.

Joe's kicking was top class yesterday.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:24 am

Spijed wrote:You don't play for England 75 times and win the PL title if you are a poor goalkeeper!

Good shot stopper but as the OP suggests the last few minutes might have been a bit more comfortable with Pope.

colne-claret · Post by **colne-claret** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:36 am

Regardless of how many games he has played for England or how many league titles he has won, in my personal opinion. Nick Pope is better suited to us than Joe Hart is. As said above he is a great shot stopper but we need pressure relieving from our back four and that is where Pope made a massive difference last season. Pope should be number 1 when 100% fit. But what would football be without opinions?

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:56 am

EarbyClaret wrote:I'm sure Hart was playing to instructions today - imagine coming for crosses in those conditions - and the chances of dropping them?

I appreciate it's an aspect of the game where the Pope of last season was better - but who's to say what's going to happen when he comes back - bearing in mind coming for crosses in a crowd creates the possibility of an awkward landing - thinking about the circumstances of Tom's injury last season.

Personally I think the focus on Joe Hart has been disproportionate - the under performance of whichever CB pairing has been playing and the (lack of) defensive CM screen in front of them has been far more damaging.

If you look at today - one of Joe's less convincing performances but a clean sheet all the same - was because the CBs in particular and the whole defence as a unit all played well.

Pope was never exposed to this level of scrutiny last season because he was so superbly protected for the most part.

What’s his excuse for staying on his line in the other 14 games then ? Hart came for a cross once yesterday and he dropped it.
As for Pope he may not have had as much focus on him as Hart but his stats were better than any other keeper in the league last season and as well as he was protected by our defence and midfield last year he also protected them. Commanding your area and collecting a cross is massive - not doing this or punching a ball means that the likelihood is that the ball is back with the opposition or in the back of our net.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:59 am

Now more than ever is time to leave one of our wingers on half way when they have set pieces.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:32 pm

I think Joe Hart not coming to catch crosses actually helps stabilise our defence.

The defenders know that Hart is not going to be rushing out so it’s their job to clear anything. There will not be any confusion of defenders expecting Hart to clear and Hart knows that he has to be ready for any shots incoming if a defender loses a header. Nobody is caught in between with Hart and our defenders all caught out trying to go for a ball.

Maybe the longer Hart plays with a solid, consistent back 4/6 (including our mids helping back) in front of him he will create an understanding of when to stick or twist. The safest option now though would be to either say “i’ll Try and punch everything” or “i’m not punching anything and it’s your job to clear” - of which he’s chosen the not punching option.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:34 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Now more than ever is time to leave one of our wingers on half way when they have set pieces.

Interestingly Bardsley shoved Lennon to the edge of the box from his usual spot covering the front post during the late corners. I don’t understand why we have our 2 smallest players on the posts defending corners.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:36 pm

bfccrazy wrote:Interestingly Bardsley shoved Lennon to the edge of the box from his usual spot covering the front post during the late corners. I don’t understand why we have our 2 smallest players on the posts defending corners.

And no outlet from Harts punches and nobody to make them keep 2 or 3 extra bodies back.

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:56 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:And no outlet from Harts punches and nobody to make them keep 2 or 3 extra bodies back.

I did find it odd that Brighton had 3 players back when attacking the late corners when we had nobody outside our own box to actually threaten them.

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:53 pm

People have short memories if they can't remember Pope claiming the cross, falling on the ball, and staying down for 20 seconds as players cleared the area. That would have made a big difference to that pressure we suffered late on in the game yesterday.

Nobody is suggesting that Hart isn't a top level keeper, just saying that Pope is more suited to what we need. The distribution thing is a red herring, it's not exactly something we rely on - and Pope was more inclined for a quick throw out in any case, which is more likely to retain possession.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:24 pm

Agree that the distribution thing is exaggerated and not that important to the way we play. Plus Pope has never cost us a goal with his distribution and clear his lines very well and gets great distance.
Look at the Chelsea keeper yesterday - played it out straight to City on edge of box. Ederson makes mistakes aswell....it’s just masked with how good the rest of the team are.

Down_Rover · Post by **Down_Rover** » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:50 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Cheers.

So how can anyone slate Hart when he barely had anything to do?

Nobody slating Hart at all. Calm down.

They just say Pope is better