This morning’s polling

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Imploding Turtle
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:05 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh, and Heseltine absolutely knocking it out of the park

https://twitter.com/BMEuropean/status/1 ... 5950134272


wow

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summitclaret
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby summitclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:06 am

I have. You can win a second referendum. The 3rd one will be on basis that we leave on wto terms if no agreement within 2 years of the second Article 50.

When the dust settles the British public will see the real issue. The EU is a mafia bully and we will not be pushed around.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:08 am

Reality mate, This is reality.

Accept it, or lose your Brexit. It really is that simple.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby summitclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:15 am

What would be fair about having something on a ballot paper that only about 20% of the HOC agree with. As i said rhat would be an utter farce.

All the EU has to do is accept that we won't be trapped. It is totally unreasonable.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:17 am

"mafia bully" :lol:

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:19 am

When the dust settles the British public will see the real issue.

And they will if you keep pushing for a Hard Brexit summit. And you won't get a Brexit.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:20 am

You've gotta love a group of people who before the referendum were talking about how the EU will be forced to respect us and bend to our will in negotiations, and are now getting all upset because the EU is "bullying" us by not bending to our will.
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:25 am

The more information that comes out about Brexit, the less chance of Brexit happening as more and more people get informed.

And soft Brexiteers (the ones who are not welded into a position) are starting to realise that this only goes away if we remain and that Mays Deal is only the start of (at the very least) two years of more negotiations over the final deal. More chaos, more Brexit, less other stuff being done.

If this doesn't get sorted, the remain case just gets stronger and stronger.

I'm not shocked you can't see that, but I would have thought that after the ERG gambled and failed that some reality might have sneaked in.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby summitclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:31 am

I am not pushing for a hard brexit (cliff edge). Never have. Just one where we actually leave and have a level playing field in the trade discussions. I want to avoid being half in half out for a decade or more.

If we accept May's current deal we can forget a decent trade deal. The EU would have total control just like this time by insisting on the money being agreed first.

Can't you see that?

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby jlup1980 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:46 am

British politics bottomed out yesterday. Surely we can't possibly plunge any deeper than the vote of confidence. It was just about the most pointless vote I can remember. May was always going to win comfortably and was never going to stand down. It was a final desparate play by Rees-Mogg and his cronies and it's backfired badly.

No doubt R-M will continue to tell us we can get a better deal without actually giving us any detail about what a better deal looks like. It's akin to me saying I can run this messageboard better than CT.

I can make it bigger and better than it's ever been guys, honestly I can. I'm not going to give you a shred of evidence to back up my claim obviously, that would be stupid. You just have to have blind faith in me that I can actually make that possible... what's that? You don't believe me? Why not?

The tories have become a parody of a party. Where are the proper, adult politicians these days? Can we leave all this schoolyard stuff where it belongs now please?

I voted remain but I've said all along that we lost the vote and we need to get on with Brexit and try to make the best of it for this country. A blind man on a galloping horse can see we aren't going to get anything like the Brexit people voted for; why can't we just accept that and crack on with getting the next best deal? The squabbling and back stabbing has to stop now. This is May's chance and she has to take it.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Right_winger » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:50 am

Any re-running of the referendum would mean that democracy in this country is finished.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby jlup1980 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:08 am

Right_winger wrote:Any re-running of the referendum would mean that democracy in this country is finished.


Agreed. In my opinion the only way that can happen is if the likes of Johnson, Farage and co. openly admit that the Leave party purposely, knowingly lied to voters in order to win... and they aren't about to do that are they!!

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby martin_p » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:14 am

summitclaret wrote:I am not pushing for a hard brexit (cliff edge). Never have. Just one where we actually leave and have a level playing field in the trade discussions. I want to avoid being half in half out for a decade or more.

If we accept May's current deal we can forget a decent trade deal. The EU would have total control just like this time by insisting on the money being agreed first.

Can't you see that?


It amuses me that the hard Brexiteers are always decrying economic forecasts as overly doom laden and worst case, while at the same time looking at the May deal and immediately assuming the the worst case will happen. The backstop might not even come into play if we sort out a trade deal with the EU before the end of the transition period.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby summitclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:20 am

Martin. We will never agree on brexit, but I have always respected the way you put over your views.

Perhaps you could try and convince me why, given what it has done to date, the EU would give us a decent trade deal when it would hold all the aces again if we cannot walk away.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby dsr » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:24 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh, and Heseltine absolutely knocking it out of the park

https://twitter.com/BMEuropean/status/1 ... 5950134272

Why is it that people like Heseltine assume that parents and grandparents don't give a stuff about their children? I'm sure he would never vote purely on self-interest for something that he quite liked but he thought it would be bad for his family. Why does he assume Brexiters would?

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby dsr » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:28 am

martin_p wrote:It amuses me that the hard Brexiteers are always decrying economic forecasts as overly doom laden and worst case, while at the same time looking at the May deal and immediately assuming the the worst case will happen. The backstop might not even come into play if we sort out a trade deal with the EU before the end of the transition period.

But we won't. Why would the EU agree one?

The best case trade deal, IMO, would be free trade all round. No tariffs, no barriers. Just like we have now.

Under May's deal, we can try and negotiate to that position, from a position where we already have the free trade deal but the UK is paying billions into the EU annually, the EU makes all the rules and the UK has no input, and the EU has a fair bit of control over UK domestic policy. What's in it for the EU to renegotiate?

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:31 am

dsr wrote:Why is it that people like Heseltine assume that parents and grandparents don't give a stuff about their children? I'm sure he would never vote purely on self-interest for something that he quite liked but he thought it would be bad for his family. Why does he assume Brexiters would?


Probably because when you look at what parents and grandparents have chosen to do to the world, and their insistence on voting for people who refuse to do anything about it, it is pretty clear that the elderly give no ***** about the young.

Climate change, welfare, social programs, Brexit, to name just a few examples of how the old are ******* over the young and being unashamed about it.

Edit: In fact the only time i can think of the elderly collectively getting angry at the people they vote was when their state pensions were threatened to no longer have triple-lock protection.
Last edited by Imploding Turtle on Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:33 am

I hate saying it, but there is a lot of truth in what IT says (and it does go both ways, the resentment the young have for the old is equally bad for society)

I'm not sure how you solve it, but an issue like this which is clearly divided amongst generational lines isn't helping.

EDIT - not because its IT saying it, but because its uncomfortable to admit its the truth

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:34 am

But we won't. Why would the EU agree one?


Why wouldn't they?

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby JohnMcGreal » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:35 am

jlup1980 wrote:Agreed. In my opinion the only way that can happen is if the likes of Johnson, Farage and co. openly admit that the Leave party purposely, knowingly lied to voters in order to win... and they aren't about to do that are they!!


So people will only believe they've been lied to when the liars tell them that they lied to them?

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby FactualFrank » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:38 am

brexit.jpg
brexit.jpg (81.87 KiB) Viewed 609 times

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:38 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:So people will only believe they've been lied to when the liars tell them that they lied to them?


They'll accuse them of being taken in by the (((deep state))) and continue believing their original lies.

These people aren't interested in hard truths, they're only interested in being wrapped up in comforting lies.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby JohnMcGreal » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:39 am

dsr wrote:The best case trade deal, IMO, would be free trade all round. No tariffs, no barriers. Just like we have now.


If only there was some way of keeping what we already have :idea:
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby dsr » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:41 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Probably because when you look at what parents and grandparents have chosen to do to the world, and their insistence on voting for people who refuse to do anything about it, it is pretty clear that the elderly give no ***** about the young.

Climate change, welfare, social programs, Brexit, to name just a few examples of how the old are ******* over the young and being unashamed about it.

Edit: In fact the only time i can think of the elderly collectively getting angry at the people they vote was when their state pensions were threatened to no longer have triple-lock protection.

Welfare? Social programmes? Are you saying that you think those are bad things, or just that the way they are run now is worse than ever before?

As for Brexit, apart from the 820,000 job losses that George Osborne promised us but can't seem to identify, what harm has it done?

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:41 am

This is stupid but foe some reason it tickled me this morning

https://twitter.com/BMEuropean/status/1 ... 8493631488
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:42 am

What harm has it done?

Jesus
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby JohnMcGreal » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:43 am

Genuinely mind-blowing comment, even from dsr.
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:43 am

dsr wrote:Welfare? Social programmes? Are you saying that you think those are bad things, or just that the way they are run now is worse than ever before?

As for Brexit, apart from the 820,000 job losses that George Osborne promised us but can't seem to identify, what harm has it done?


I guess i should have included "cuts to" before those two, lest you get confused.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:46 am

There's an episode of Battlestar Galactica where John Cavil says that the Cylons are going to stop pursuing the humans and that Cylons and humans can go their separate ways "no harm done". DSR's comment reminds me of that.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:52 am

What if he genuinely thinks there is no harm done?

What if he's not alone?

Thats the worrying thing

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby dsr » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:21 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:What if he genuinely thinks there is no harm done?

What if he's not alone?

Thats the worrying thing

History is full of national mergers and separations that have caused no harm.

And instead of rolling your eyes and tutting, why not answer the question.

What harm has been done?

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Mala591 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:24 am

Backstop solution idea:

If trade negotiations are failing and we enter the backstop situation then why not have a legal maximum backstop duration of 6 months (180 days). If the trade dispute(s) are not solved in that period then we leave the EU on WTO terms.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:24 am

Mate, you genuinely think its done no harm at all?

I just thought it was a throw away comment cos you were out of ideas. You are serious?

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby dsr » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:26 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Mate, you genuinely think its done no harm at all?

I just thought it was a throw away comment cos you were out of ideas. You are serious?

Yes.

So instead of rolling your eyes and tutting, why not answer the question.

What harm has been done?

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby LoveCurryPies » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:33 am

What if membership of the EU was a personal decision? Brexiteers could walk away and remainers would be happy with life as it it. Easy! :lol:

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:34 am

****.

Thats up there in the brass neck stakes with the Brexiteers appearing on TV last night straight after getting crushed in a vote to say that the vote meant they hadn't lost and May should resign.

Starter for one - how much money has been wasted on this? On the preparations for a No deal?

Starter for two - we haven't done anything that needed doing for two years as a country, and that isn't going to change for at least another two

Starter for three - the UK has been ripped apart. I have no confidence that I will be living in the UK in its current form in ten years time, let alone my lifetime.

Starter for four - Our international reputation has taken a hit. Suez levels of a hit btw, Suez changed UK foreign policy for half a decade and marked the end of the UK as world power

Starter for five - three million plus much needed EU immigrants now know they are not wanted here. Study today by the NHS recruitment agencies suggest that EU job applications have dropped off a cliff

Starter for six - How much investment has gone elsewhere in the last two years? How much more will we lose before we sort this out?

I mean, come on, thats just off the top of my head, there is loads more if I really started digging.
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:41 am

dsr wrote:Yes.

So instead of rolling your eyes and tutting, why not answer the question.

What harm has been done?



No harm at all mate. We devalued our currency over night, and our stock markets are slumping but nothing bad has happened. We have to beg corporations to stay here promising god-knows what kinds of cuts in taxes, regulations, workers rights but nothing harmful has been done at all. I'm sure all this is to the benefit of the working class. We don't need to be protected against being fired because we got sick or pregnant, i'm sure no one will be upset when we don't have a right to holiday pay. I'm sure zero-hour contracts will definitely be gone once we've left. I'm sure that when the minimum wage doesn't grow for 10 years we'll be OK with that because no harm done. Should i go on?

You're ******* deluded if you think the harm hasn't already begun. Some of it can be seen, some of it can't yet because it'll be in the form of promises to CEO and Boards of Directors. Just because YOU can't see it, and just because YOU can't feel it yet doesn't mean the negative effects havn't started happening.
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lord Beamish » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:50 am

Come on DSR; this is Panglossian nonsense of the highest order you’re perpetrating here.
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby dsr » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:52 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:****.

Thats up there in the brass neck stakes with the Brexiteers appearing on TV last night straight after getting crushed in a vote to say that the vote meant they hadn't lost and May should resign.

Starter for one - how much money has been wasted on this? On the preparations for a No deal?

Starter for two - we haven't done anything that needed doing for two years as a country, and that isn't going to change for at least another two

Starter for three - the UK has been ripped apart. I have no confidence that I will be living in the UK in its current form in ten years time, let alone my lifetime.

Starter for four - Our international reputation has taken a hit. Suez levels of a hit btw, Suez changed UK foreign policy for half a decade and marked the end of the UK as world power

Starter for five - three million plus much needed EU immigrants now know they are not wanted here. Study today by the NHS recruitment agencies suggest that EU job applications have dropped off a cliff

Starter for six - How much investment has gone elsewhere in the last two years? How much more will we lose before we sort this out?

I mean, come on, thats just off the top of my head, there is loads more if I really started digging.

1. Peanuts.
2. Politicians do too much anyway. Politicians have a very high opinion of themselves and believe that the more laws they change, the better the country will be, because they know the answers and their predecessors didn't. If they haven't time for pointless meddling, it's a good thing.
3. The UK survived the Scottish referendum, and (unless May's deal goes through) will survive the Brexit referendum.
4. It will recover if we act competently as a non-EU nation.
5. Then perhaps we'll have to increase training and salaries of UK NHS staff. Is that a bad thing?
6. Don't know. But as both domestic investment and inward overseas investment are at record highs, it's a hard case to argue that it would have been vastly better with a Remain vote. If we leave the EU, the increased cost of imports will be a positive driver for inward investment.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/u ... ported-it/
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1KD1QY

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:54 am

Pointless. Absolutely ******* pointless.

The only consolation out of this whole **** show that the loons who wanted it, won't get the one they want.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:59 am

"Then perhaps we'll have to increase training and salaries of UK NHS staff. Is that a bad thing?"

:lol:

More spending to achieve the same staff levels - "is that a bad thing?"

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby dsr » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:07 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:No harm at all mate. We devalued our currency over night, and our stock markets are slumping but nothing bad has happened. We have to beg corporations to stay here promising god-knows what kinds of cuts in taxes, regulations, workers rights but nothing harmful has been done at all. I'm sure all this is to the benefit of the working class. We don't need to be protected against being fired because we got sick or pregnant, i'm sure no one will be upset when we don't have a right to holiday pay. I'm sure zero-hour contracts will definitely be gone once we've left. I'm sure that when the minimum wage doesn't grow for 10 years we'll be OK with that because no harm done. Should i go on?

You're ******* deluded if you think the harm hasn't already begun. Some of it can be seen, some of it can't yet because it'll be in the form of promises to CEO and Boards of Directors. Just because YOU can't see it, and just because YOU can't feel it yet doesn't mean the negative effects havn't started happening.

Does the Labour party mean nothing to you? Trades unions? If you think that workers' rights derive only from the EU, you're wrong. (Forget about zero-hours contract, because they are just the new way of paying casual labour. Taxed casual labour has always been a bad idea for some people, a good idea for others; but zero hours contracts in themselves aren't a bad thing.)

Is the minimum wage an EU directive? I'd missed that one. I thought it was a UK thing.

As for stock markets, up 10% since Brexit, and exchange rate, down 15% with the Euro since Brexit (compared with down 8% the year before Brexit) - they're always variable. What do you reckon they would have been if we hadn't voted Brexit?

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:08 am

I have absolutely no idea how you have avoided being accused of "living in an ivory tower" dsr.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:10 am

dsr wrote:Does the Labour party mean nothing to you? Trades unions? If you think that workers' rights derive only from the EU, you're wrong. (Forget about zero-hours contract, because they are just the new way of paying casual labour. Taxed casual labour has always been a bad idea for some people, a good idea for others; but zero hours contracts in themselves aren't a bad thing.)

Is the minimum wage an EU directive? I'd missed that one. I thought it was a UK thing.

As for stock markets, up 10% since Brexit, and exchange rate, down 15% with the Euro since Brexit (compared with down 8% the year before Brexit) - they're always variable. What do you reckon they would have been if we hadn't voted Brexit?



If you think that companies who are threatening to leave will be persuaded to stay without significant concessions that will have an adverse affect on the rights of their workers then you are a ******* moron of the dumbest order.

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Imploding Turtle
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:10 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I have absolutely no idea how you have avoided being accused of "living in an ivory tower" dsr.



He's not a liberal.

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claretandy
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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby claretandy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:12 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:So she lost then Andy, and her mandate of 200 to 117 doesn't count? Does sound a lot more than 52-48 to be honest

Think I can see how this one is going to play out sadly.

I'll just keep repeating this - if you push for the hard Brexit, you'll get no Brexit. At some stage you are going to have to accept that


I can live with mays deal, don't think it will get through though.
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby RingoMcCartney » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:14 am

When the Chancellor of the Exchequer screams "extremists" at MPs for standing up for what 17,400,000 voted for in the largest single expression of democracy the nation has ever witnessed. What the Conservative party promised in its manifesto and what Teresa May promised at her Lancaster house speech.

You know we're witnessing a betrayal by the establishment and political class and the death of democracy.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby RingoMcCartney » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:15 am

When the Chancellor of the Exchequer screams "extremists" at MPs for standing up for what 17,400,000 voted for in the largest single expression of democracy the nation has ever witnessed. What the Conservative party promised in its manifesto and what Teresa May promised at her Lancaster house speech.

You know we're witnessing a betrayal by the establishment and political class and the death of democracy.
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:15 am

I can live with it as well

if we can both live with it, then its probably got more of a chance than anyone thinks!

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Re: This morning’s polling

Postby quoonbeatz » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:25 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:When the Chancellor of the Exchequer screams "extremists" at MPs for standing up for what 17,400,000 voted for in the largest single expression of democracy the nation has ever witnessed. What the Conservative party promised in its manifesto and what Teresa May promised at her Lancaster house speech.

You know we're witnessing a betrayal by the establishment and political class and the death of democracy.


:lol:


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