This morning’s polling

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keith1879
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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by keith1879 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:27 am

burnleymik wrote:What information do you have now that wasn't available in June 2016?

There is genuinely no justifiable reason to run the referendum again, apart from to try and reverse the decision.

By all means vote on May's deal or WTO.
In 2016 we had no idea of any detail about what "Leave" meant. For example ....in 2016 the leave campaign pushed the idea that we could still have access to the single market with a Norway style situation but we now know that won't be happening. On the other hand in 2016 leaving looked like a massive step into the unknown whereas the deal on the table does at least show that we can maintain a cordial relationship with the EU.
And finally the whole Irish border issue never seemed to get a serious airing in 2016 but now it's a massive sticking point for many MPs (and many people in Ireland).

I would repeat the point however that parliament can still accept that deal ....and I for one have urged my MP to do just that.

Look - I don't want to get into one of these awful tit for tat battles.....we should be looking for a reasoned way out of this mess and to start bringing the country back together. To do so requires compromise from all sides.
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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:29 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh, and Heseltine absolutely knocking it out of the park

https://twitter.com/BMEuropean/status/1 ... 5950134272" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Michael Heseltine. A man who receives around £90,000 each an every year for keeping some of his many acres fallow, under the EUs Common Agricultural Policy. His privilege and entitlement is , to him, is far more important than democracy.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:31 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Michael Heseltine. A man who receives around £90,000 each an every year for keeping some of his many acres fallow, under the EUs Common Agricultural Policy. His privilege and entitlement is , to him, is far more important than democracy.
Playing the man, not the ball.
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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:40 am

Last night's 1922 Committee announcement being met with standing ovation, had something of North Korea about it.

keith1879
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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by keith1879 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:41 am

summitclaret wrote:What would be fair about having something on a ballot paper that only about 20% of the HOC agree with. As i said rhat would be an utter farce.

All the EU has to do is accept that we won't be trapped. It is totally unreasonable.
Well more than 50% of the HOC feel that staying in the EU is the right thing to do .....but leaving was on the referendum paper in 2016.

The whole point here is that there is a triangulation. TM's plan isn't failing because the EU supporters don't like it .....neither is it failing because the hard-right swivel-eyed multi-millionaire w***ker Rees-Mogg and his acolytes don't like it. It's failing because NONE of them like it - it's in the middle of a range of opinions.

She has come up with a plan that doesn't stamp all over the faces of the 48% of the country who don't want Brexit at all .....and I see that as a highly principled and sensible thing for a Prime Minister to do. For a modern Conservative prime minister it is little short of a miracle.

Like LancasterClaret says .......if you push for a hard brexit (the very limit of the range of opinions) you may very well get no brexit (which is actually an outcome that would be fairly popular in the country with around 48% support according to the greatest ever democratic test in the universe since before the big bang).
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keith1879
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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by keith1879 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:44 am

jlup1980 wrote:British politics bottomed out yesterday. Surely we can't possibly plunge any deeper than the vote of confidence. It was just about the most pointless vote I can remember. May was always going to win comfortably and was never going to stand down. It was a final desparate play by Rees-Mogg and his cronies and it's backfired badly.

No doubt R-M will continue to tell us we can get a better deal without actually giving us any detail about what a better deal looks like. It's akin to me saying I can run this messageboard better than CT.

I can make it bigger and better than it's ever been guys, honestly I can. I'm not going to give you a shred of evidence to back up my claim obviously, that would be stupid. You just have to have blind faith in me that I can actually make that possible... what's that? You don't believe me? Why not?

The tories have become a parody of a party. Where are the proper, adult politicians these days? Can we leave all this schoolyard stuff where it belongs now please?

I voted remain but I've said all along that we lost the vote and we need to get on with Brexit and try to make the best of it for this country. A blind man on a galloping horse can see we aren't going to get anything like the Brexit people voted for; why can't we just accept that and crack on with getting the next best deal? The squabbling and back stabbing has to stop now. This is May's chance and she has to take it.
Agree almost 100% ....the only phrase I query is "the Brexit people voted for". People voted to leave the EU ......no more and no less.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:48 am

Boring myself now, but you lot really do have to face reality.

The ERG never will, but they can't deliver a Brexit. May deal can. Its the only one there.

Reject that, and its absolutely up in the air where we go. Yes, there is a slight chance of a harder Brexit, but a much higher chance of No Brexit at all.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by keith1879 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:50 am

dsr wrote:Welfare? Social programmes? Are you saying that you think those are bad things, or just that the way they are run now is worse than ever before?

As for Brexit, apart from the 820,000 job losses that George Osborne promised us but can't seem to identify, what harm has it done?
I predicted (before the vote) that "leave" would harm my pension fund and it has done very poorly ever since. I can't prove cause and effect but......

Having subsequently read the posts by lancasterclaret and I.T I actually feel quite ashamed that my answer to dsr's question was so self-centerd.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:01 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Boring myself now.
Finally! Something we can all agree on!!
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:02 pm

keith1879 wrote:I predicted (before the vote) that "leave" would harm my pension fund and it has done very poorly ever since. I can't prove cause and effect but......

Having subsequently read the posts by lancasterclaret and I.T I actually feel quite ashamed that my answer to dsr's question was so self-centerd.
Nothing wrong with your answer.
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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by keith1879 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:12 pm

dsr wrote:Yes.

So instead of rolling your eyes and tutting, why not answer the question.

What harm has been done?
....and to add to what has already been said we've had a completely pointless general election that further paralysed the country for about 8 weeks.

I'm going to pose the question "What good has been done (so far)?"

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by Mala591 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:18 pm

IMO the real 'CULPRITS' (some might use stronger words) in this impasse are the LABOUR POLITICIANS who have a very soft Brexit on the table (May's Brexit) but who defiantly refuse to support it DESPITE their election policy promise to support Brexit.

Some might think that they are putting their OBSESSION of forcing a general election way before the economic stability of the country.

I will be having very strong words with Julie Cooper over the next few days!
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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by martin_p » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:20 pm

Mala591 wrote:IMO the real 'CULPRITS' (some might use stronger words) in this impasse are the LABOUR POLITICIANS who have a very soft Brexit on the table (May's Brexit) but who defiantly refuse to support it DESPITE their election policy promise to support Brexit.

Some might think that they are putting their OBSESSION of forcing a general election way before the economic stability of the country.

I will be having very strong words with Julie Cooper over the next few days!
Brexit - it’s always someone else’s fault.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by arise_sir_charge » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:20 pm

It's very clear that people on this thread are never going to agree.

The interesting thing is that IT and Lancaster are guilty of what they accuse Ringo and DSR etc of. They have their own extreme views and do back them on occasion with points that simply cannot be evidenced.

Both sides of the argument are guilty of it, but neither can see themselves doing it.

Relying on what has happened with 'the markets' is pointless as the markets have fluctuated before we were in Europe, when we were in Europe, when we announced we may leave Europe, when we announced we are going to leave Europe and will continue to do so whether we leave Europe or not.

All other points are generally unable to be evidenced based on what we know now.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:21 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:It's very clear that people on this thread are never going to agree.

The interesting thing is that IT and Lancaster are guilty of what they accuse Ringo and DSR etc of. They have their own extreme views and do back them on occasion with points that simply cannot be evidenced.

Both sides of the argument are guilty of it, but neither can see themselves doing it.

Relying on what has happened with 'the markets' is pointless as the markets have fluctuated before we were in Europe, when we were in Europe, when we announced we may leave Europe, when we announced we are going to leave Europe and will continue to do so whether we leave Europe or not.

All other points are generally unable to be evidenced based on what we know now.

What are those "extreme" views? I'd love to know what extremist view I've shared.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by arise_sir_charge » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:24 pm

Also, to pick up on something Keith has said, my personal pension pot has never performed better than it has in the last 2 years. Everyone will likely be different in that respect dependent upon your own personal approach to risk and investment. I am sure in years to come it will fall and rise etc etc

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by TVC15 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:26 pm

I know the country is divided on this but to suggest that no harm has been or is being done by this is one of the most ridiculous and blinkered comments I have seen out of the tens of thousands of posts on Brexit on this board.

Well done dsr - that’s some “achievement” !
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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by arise_sir_charge » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:28 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What are those "extreme" views? I'd love to know what extremist view I've shared.
Here you go, I'd say some of this is pretty extreme and without anything at all to back it up.....
Imploding Turtle wrote:No harm at all mate. We devalued our currency over night, and our stock markets are slumping but nothing bad has happened. We have to beg corporations to stay here promising god-knows what kinds of cuts in taxes, regulations, workers rights but nothing harmful has been done at all. I'm sure all this is to the benefit of the working class. We don't need to be protected against being fired because we got sick or pregnant, i'm sure no one will be upset when we don't have a right to holiday pay. I'm sure zero-hour contracts will definitely be gone once we've left. I'm sure that when the minimum wage doesn't grow for 10 years we'll be OK with that because no harm done. Should i go on?
Might just be me though :o

By the way I said extreme as opposed to extremist which in the current climate has a slightly different connotation.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:29 pm

The interesting thing is that IT and Lancaster are guilty of what they accuse Ringo and DSR etc of. They have their own extreme views
Name one.

And on the agreement bit, both me and claretandy can live with the may deal.

So I suspect you are reading what you want to read, rather than what is actually said.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:31 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:Here you go, I'd say some of this is pretty extreme and without anything at all to back it up.....



Might just be me though :o

By the way I said extreme as opposed to extremist which in the current climate has a slightly different connotation.

What about it is an extreme view, though? Is it extreme to think that companies will demand the removal of rights and regulations in order to remain in the UK? Be specific about what my extreme views are.

And i reject your attempt at differentiating extreme and extremist. If a view is extreme then it's an extremist view. They're synonyms.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by arise_sir_charge » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:36 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Name one.

And on the agreement bit, both me and claretandy can live with the may deal.

So I suspect you are reading what you want to read, rather than what is actually said.
Hell fire Lancaster, your are fine one to level that accusation.

Anyway, here you go, some of this is fairly extreme with no evidence to back it up.
Lancasterclaret wrote:Starter for one - how much money has been wasted on this? On the preparations for a No deal?

Starter for two - we haven't done anything that needed doing for two years as a country, and that isn't going to change for at least another two

Starter for three - the UK has been ripped apart. I have no confidence that I will be living in the UK in its current form in ten years time, let alone my lifetime.

Starter for four - Our international reputation has taken a hit. Suez levels of a hit btw, Suez changed UK foreign policy for half a decade and marked the end of the UK as world power

Starter for five - three million plus much needed EU immigrants now know they are not wanted here. Study today by the NHS recruitment agencies suggest that EU job applications have dropped off a cliff

Starter for six - How much investment has gone elsewhere in the last two years? How much more will we lose before we sort this out?
Again, may just be me but you can't have it both ways.
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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by arise_sir_charge » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:39 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What about it is an extreme view, though? Is it extreme to think that companies will demand the removal of rights and regulations in order to remain in the UK? Be specific about what my extreme views are.

And i reject your attempt at differentiating extreme and extremist. If a view is extreme then it's an extremist view. They're synonyms.
The examples are at the extreme end of what may happen and it's equally as possible that actually none of it will happen.

Reject what you like, it's my opinion and I have explained why I hold that opinion. It's actually irrelevant in any event to the wider argument.

I'm done for now anyway, got work to do.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:41 pm

Not extreme though is it?

You cannot argue with any of those points arise sadly.

I wish you could, but its certainly not an extreme view to hold them. Its a bit more like reality.

Ditto - got work to do and a kids parents afternoon*

*rural school, so everyone has to come from miles away, so they don't do evening!

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by keith1879 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:44 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:It's very clear that people on this thread are never going to agree.

The interesting thing is that IT and Lancaster are guilty of what they accuse Ringo and DSR etc of. They have their own extreme views and do back them on occasion with points that simply cannot be evidenced.

Both sides of the argument are guilty of it, but neither can see themselves doing it.

Relying on what has happened with 'the markets' is pointless as the markets have fluctuated before we were in Europe, when we were in Europe, when we announced we may leave Europe, when we announced we are going to leave Europe and will continue to do so whether we leave Europe or not.

All other points are generally unable to be evidenced based on what we know now.
Having reviewed the subsequent posts to this one it appears that "extreme" means "not agreeing with me". Much of what LancasterClaret said was phrased as questions for example - not as alleged facts.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:44 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:The examples are at the extreme end of what may happen and it's equally as possible that actually none of it will happen.

Reject what you like, it's my opinion and I have explained why I hold that opinion. It's actually irrelevant in any event to the wider argument.

I'm done for now anyway, got work to do.
The government convincing companies with tax incentives and the relaxation of regulations to stay in the UK is not an extreme view. That sort of thing is something governments do to attract companies in the first place.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by arise_sir_charge » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:49 pm

keith1879 wrote:Having reviewed the subsequent posts to this one it appears that "extreme" means "not agreeing with me". Much of what LancasterClaret said was phrased as questions for example - not as alleged facts.
Not at all Keith, I've explained why I believe them to be extreme views. Some are questions some are his opinions. He's entitled to them of course and he sees them as the "reality" and I think it's a extreme view of the reality.

IT, I understand that relaxing of taxes and regulations helps attract business I just felt the examples you gave were at the extreme end of what would be likely/probable and everyone is quick to jump on everybody else when they make suggestions/predictions etc.

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by jlup1980 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:10 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:So people will only believe they've been lied to when the liars tell them that they lied to them?
I'm this instance yes. We all know we were lied to but it's pretty much all conjecture until someone is caught out and the truth revealed in all it's ugliness!!

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Re: This morning’s polling

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:11 pm

Anyone wanna explain to me if this government isn't promising our souls to these corporations, then why is this letter still too confidential to make public?

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-brit ... SKBN1OC1KU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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