Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

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Top Claret
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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by Top Claret » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:32 am

Performances are improving no doubt about it. Weeks ago the score line would have been 3 or 4, unlucky not to get a point.
Good to see Dyche changing his tactics and not sticking to his rigid 5411 or 442. Couple of weeks ago I could see no light in the tunnel, I now see hope.
It's going to be tough season but we have the character and experience to pull through. Bardsley is an inspiration and a example to all with his fighting spirit.
A fully fit Tarks is already starting to make an impact. We look more like last seasons Burnley now.

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by NL Claret » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:04 am

It's taken a little longer than normal however the over analysis of goalkeepers (this season only) continues. There is certainly more knowledge on the art of goalkeeping displayed by posters / fans this season.
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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by MrTopTier » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:27 am

A six for Hart jeez. If Hendrick had been in net it would have been an eight.
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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by Mala591 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:54 am

All players 7 - good

We were set up to draw/lose and I would have preferred sticking with 4-4-2 which was showing very positive signs of improving our attacking threat.

To play 5 at the back you need fast and athletic full backs who are given the freedom to attack and can regularly put in good quality crosses. That just isn't the case at the moment.

IMO, back to 4-4-2 against Arsenal then let's see how the two performances compare.

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:06 am

MrTopTier wrote:A six for Hart jeez. If Hendrick had been in net it would have been an eight.
At least he may have recycled the ball :D

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:09 am

TVC15 wrote:Having just watched the goal again several times on MOTD anyone laying fault at Hart for that goal is speaking out of his arse.
Saying he should anticipate it is ridiculous. Look at how the ball ended up with Eriksen...2 of our defenders going for the same ball and then 4 defenders getting dragged towards Kane. So it’s now Hart’s job to pick up the spare man is it ? It’s Hart’s job to “anticipate” that our 7 or 8 defenders in the box are going to leave someone at the back post ?
The goal is also absolutely nothing like the build up play for the Heaton wonder save against Zlatan. I have no idea why this was even mentioned.
I agree 100%.

I think its both over analyzing an excellent finish for the sake of it and also proof there is an agenda with Hart. In some cases subconcious!

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by Im_not_Robbie_Blake » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:10 pm

Hart 8
Bardsley 8
Tarkowski 9
Mee 8
Long 8
Taylor 8
Lennon 7
Westwood 7
Cork 7
Barnes 8
Brady 7

Wood 4 ....I cringe when he comes on!

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by claretspice » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:32 pm

TVC15 wrote:Having just watched the goal again several times on MOTD anyone laying fault at Hart for that goal is speaking out of his arse.
Saying he should anticipate it is ridiculous. Look at how the ball ended up with Eriksen...2 of our defenders going for the same ball and then 4 defenders getting dragged towards Kane. So it’s now Hart’s job to pick up the spare man is it ? It’s Hart’s job to “anticipate” that our 7 or 8 defenders in the box are going to leave someone at the back post ?
The goal is also absolutely nothing like the build up play for the Heaton wonder save against Zlatan. I have no idea why this was even mentioned.
I think we can probably chill out and take some of the aggression out of this discussion, and also put this in perspective - I've given Hart a 6. That's average - it means in my opinion, he did some stuff well and some stuff less well. It doesn't suggest I thought he was poor, and it isn't a particularly critical mark. I thought about giving him a 7 - if we had half marks, I'd have probably given him 6.5. But we don't so we didn't.

I've no problem with others disagreeing with my opinion on the goal, and I've not criticised anyone who thinks differently. What I've tried to do is to explain my opinion, because it's obviously a bit out of step with the general opinion (which is fine). I've no particular criticism of Hart, but I do sometimes wonder if he gets caught a bit flat footed every now and again for one reason or another.

I've already set out my reasoning above, and I'm always wary of expanding on my thoughts as not everyone likes length justifications, but to clarify, I mentioned the Heaton save not for the save itself - which was brilliant - but because I think its a great example of a keeper reading where the danger is and getting himself across his goalline and into a great position to give himself of pulling off the save. Perhaps its not the best example I could have used. Perhaps I could actually have cited the occasion in the first half when Sissoko squared to Lamela, and Hart did very well to read the play and get across his goal so he saved with more a block rather than a save. In my opinion, he had the opportunity to do something similar with the goal. I take the point it happened quickly, but having watched again, it is worth noting that at the moment Kane laid it off, Tarks is pretty much at the penalty spot. By the time Eriksen shoots he's got right across to try and block having spotted a problem and sprinted back to try and block. In that time, Hart has moved about 2 feet across his goal line - but not out towards Eriksen and not far enough across to cut down the angle. If Tarks can run 7 or 8 yards in that time (and Eriksen ran a similar distance to get onto the lay-off, albeit from a running start), I think Hart could and should have got into a position that gave him a much better chance to block the shot, or at least force him to go across goal where two or three Burnley players had got back into positions to block. Looking at the footage it looks to me like Tarks is questioning this with Hart immediately after the goal, although that's speculation.

I fully accept that other players made mistakes for the goal - Long went for what I think is Tarks' ball, Lennon could have tracked Eriksen, Bardsley didn't need to dive in on Alli, etc. But in my view, once it becomes clear that the ball is going to end up with Eriksen, it is absolutely the keeper's job to be the last line of defence. He did that excellently in the first half, but I didn't think he met the same standard he'd set himself in the last minute.

Like I say, this is my opinion. The other reason I marked as I did was that actually, I thought Hart had very little to do. He made two good saves, but I can't recall him doing anything else that wasn't completely routine. I'm not sure what the fact I rate Hendrick has to do with it, and nor do I think expressions like "talking out of their ****" are especially necessary. We can disagree without resorting to that, I hope.
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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by TVC15 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:06 pm

Let’s not have a hissy fit about quite a common and non offensive term....but if it has offended you - apologies.

You have made a few comments this season about Hart and some of his saves and as per other comments on this thread my own view is that you have a rather over inflated view of your goalkeeping knowledge.
When you say “once it became clear that the ball is going to end up with Eriksen” again you sound like you’re unnecessarily over analysing the game without understanding it.
For one this happened very quickly. Secondly and most importantly it should never have reached Eriksen...and once it unexpectedly does it is too late for Hart (or any goalkeeper) to do anything about it. You are kind of saying he should have gone over to that side before he knew it was going to reach him - which is actually in my view pretty ridiculous....because from a percentage point of view it should not have ended up there.
You are the only person who scored him a 6 and you remain the only person I can find who has criticised him about the goal.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion but as said it’s not the first time this season you have made comments on Hart that are not justified.
And for the record I have said on several occasions that I think we would be a better team with Pope in our nets.
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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by Marty Dobson » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:13 pm

Hart 7
Tarks 7
Mee 7
Long 8
Bardsley7
Westwood 7
Cork 7
Taylor 8
Lennon 7
Barnes 8
Brady 7

Great effort all round.. we're back to 'the minimum requirement is maximum effort.' Would've given Tarks an 8 except for his positioning for the goal.I thought he got sucked in to jumping for a ball he was never going to get when we had a player already contesting.

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by claretspice » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:13 pm

TVC15 wrote:Let’s not have a hissy fit about quite a common and non offensive term.
You have made a few comments this season about Hart and some of his saves and as per other comments on this thread my own view is that you have a rather over inflated view of your goalkeeping knowledge.

When you say “once it became clear that the ball is going to end up with Eriksen” again you sound like you’re unnecessarily over analysing the game without understanding it.
For one this happened very quickly. Secondly and most importantly it should never have reached Eriksen...and once I unexpectedly does it is too late for Hart (or any goalkeeper) to do anything about it. You are kind of saying he should have gone over to that side before he knew it was going to reach him - which is actually pretty ridiculous.
You are the only person who scored him a 6 and you remain the only person I can find who has criticised him about the goal.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion but as said it’s not the first time this season you have made comments on Hart that are not justified.
And for the record I have said on several occasions that I think we would be a better team with Pope in our nets.
I'm not going to accuse you of not understanding the game, but you clearly haven't understood my point because I've definitely not suggested he should have moved to that side before he knew it was going there. It was obvious to everyone in the stadium from the point Kane took the ball down and set to lay it off with his left foot that it was going to get to Eriksen. That is the point I think he should have begun to do what Tarkowski did, which is to react to the danger. He didn't need to move far, but he did need to move. He didn't, and the chance became a lot easier as a result (again, my opinion).

I've no problem at all with Hart. He's a good keeper - you don't play for Man City or England without being. I have criticised him a few times for the same thing - which is being a bit flat footed on occasions. I stand by that assessment. I may be in a minority, that may be a minority of one, but I've taken the time to explain why I have taken that view. Now, move on and stop chucking around insults because i've got an opinion you don't agree with. We agree on lots more, including the fact that others also made mistakes for the goal.

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by TVC15 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:30 pm

I understand exactly what you are saying and I think you are wrong and being far too critical.
As you said you are in a minority of one and there is a good reason for this.
I have said a few times I do not like the way he stays on his line and this is why I prefer Pope. But for this goal and with so many of our defenders in the box together with the way the ball was put directly into the box rather than a cross coming in from out wide, staying on your line / 6 yard box is exactly what a keeper should be doing. The fault is very clearly with our defence for that goal.

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by claretspice » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:45 pm

TVC15 wrote:I understand exactly what you are saying and I think you are wrong and being far too critical.
As you said you are in a minority of one and there is a good reason for this.
I have said a few times I do not like the way he stays on his line and this is why I prefer Pope. But for this goal and with so many of our defenders in the box together with the way the ball was put directly into the box rather than a cross coming in from out wide, staying on your line / 6 yard box is exactly what a keeper should be doing. The fault is very clearly with our defence for that goal.
Ok. We move on. You've not addressed the comparison with the distance that he covered in the first half from a through ball from Sissoko, nor with the distance Tarks covered to try and block the shot for the goal having had almost exactly the same time to react from the lay-off/through ball. But if this debate is going to continue - and there's a good discusssion to be had, actually, if we keep it civil - it needs a separate thread. Time to draw stumps on the player ratings thread I think.

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by LeadBelly » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:23 pm

Player ratings 7 - started off well but fizzled out in the 2nd half
Squabbling 10 - Not doing much early doors but getting strong from half time onwards and becoming the dominant player

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:48 pm

TVC15 wrote:Having just watched the goal again several times on MOTD anyone laying fault at Hart for that goal is speaking out of his arse.
Saying he should anticipate it is ridiculous. Look at how the ball ended up with Eriksen...2 of our defenders going for the same ball and then 4 defenders getting dragged towards Kane. So it’s now Hart’s job to pick up the spare man is it ? It’s Hart’s job to “anticipate” that our 7 or 8 defenders in the box are going to leave someone at the back post ?
The goal is also absolutely nothing like the build up play for the Heaton wonder save against Zlatan. I have no idea why this was even mentioned.
If you want to point any finger of criticism on a player for the goal then it's Tarkowski. If the ball up from Trippier had been left to Long he would have dealt with it, but Tarky made it difficult for him and it all fell for them from there. Don't think Hart had a prayer to be honest. I'm not sure what on earth he could have done.

I have to say thought that I'm staggered he's up there in the mom voting. He made two outstanding saves but otherwise hadn't too much to do because of some outstanding performances in front of him. He did absolutely nothing wrong I didn't think in the entire game.
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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by boatshed bill » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:33 pm

I thought this was a player ratings thread :D :D :D :D

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:59 pm

claretspice wrote:I'm not going to accuse you of not understanding the game, but you clearly haven't understood my point because I've definitely not suggested he should have moved to that side before he knew it was going there. It was obvious to everyone in the stadium from the point Kane took the ball down and set to lay it off with his left foot that it was going to get to Eriksen. That is the point I think he should have begun to do what Tarkowski did, which is to react to the danger. He didn't need to move far, but he did need to move. He didn't, and the chance became a lot easier as a result (again, my opinion).

I've no problem at all with Hart. He's a good keeper - you don't play for Man City or England without being. I have criticised him a few times for the same thing - which is being a bit flat footed on occasions. I stand by that assessment. I may be in a minority, that may be a minority of one, but I've taken the time to explain why I have taken that view. Now, move on and stop chucking around insults because i've got an opinion you don't agree with. We agree on lots more, including the fact that others also made mistakes for the goal.
Can you clarify where you think Hart should be then?

From the moment it touched Kane, to the moment the ball hits the back of the net the duration of this move by the way is 2 seconds.

Image

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:01 pm

ClaretTony wrote:If you want to point any finger of criticism on a player for the goal then it's Tarkowski. If the ball up from Trippier had been left to Long he would have dealt with it, but Tarky made it difficult for him and it all fell for them from there. Don't think Hart had a prayer to be honest. I'm not sure what on earth he could have done.
Have to agree. Not that I would blame Tarks at all. But if anyone thats who caused the issue. That said he is let off the hook especially as he was playing in a back 5 for us for the first time. So its unsurprising that there was a moment both he and our other 'right sided centre half' went for the same ball. Just a shame it was such a critical moment.

Equally Hart should be given the same slack for playing in a new system. A new system which but for one moment served us excellently.

Never in a million years can Hart be expected to save that goal.

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by boatshed bill » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:06 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Have to agree. Not that I would blame Tarks at all. But if anyone thats who caused the issue. That said he is let off the hook especially as he was playing in a back 5 for us for the first time. So its unsurprising that there was a moment both he and our other 'right sided centre half' went for the same ball. Just a shame it was such a critical moment.

Equally Hart should be given the same slack for playing in a new system. A new system which but for one moment served us excellently.

Never in a million years can Hart be expected to save that goal.
Especially with those flat feet ;)
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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by claretspice » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:16 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Can you clarify where you think Hart should be then?

From the moment it touched Kane, to the moment the ball hits the back of the net the duration of this move by the way is 2 seconds.

Image
Blimey, are we still on this?

In that picture, every Burnley player is moving except one - Hart is stationary, in a position where he's got next to no chance of stopping the ball. It may well only be 2 seconds - if you've counted then good for you - but in that time as I keep saying Tarks travels about 8 yards - from being on the penalty spot to sliding across the 6 yard box to try and block it.

My point is simply that Hart could - I think should - also be advancing off his line at the point of your still to get as close to Eriksen as possible, and moving across his goal line to block off the near post as far as possible (he's so far over in your freeze frame, the near post isn't even in shot). In the event, all he does is shuffle a half pace to his right, which is not nearly enough to give himself any chance of stopping the shot, or forcing Eriksen to aim for the far post (where there's a much greater chance of the shot being blocked). I have no idea why if Tarks can move 8 yards, Hart can't be expected to move further across his goal and out towards Eriksen.

We can analyse this frame by frame if you want (I suspect a freeze of the point Eriksen shoots would reveal Hart to be on pretty much the same spot, whilst Tarks and Eriksen have moved a few strides forwards), but this boils down to the fact I think a top keeper does more to make that chance difficult than Hart does, and should not be leaving such a big target at the near post. As I keep saying, if you disagree then fine. I'm entitled to my opinion - you are entitled to yours.
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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by Dark Cloud » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:43 pm

Hart 8
Taylor 7 (much improved and becoming a real offensive threat, but mis controlled a great chance first half and did brilliantly then fell over in the box when well really placed moments before they scored)
Long 8
Mee 8
Tarks 8
Bardsley8
Cork 7
Westwood 8
Lennon 7
Brady 7
Barnes 8* (it might be all relative, but he's absolutely the best "lone" striker we have and he worked tirelessly)

We set out for the morale boosting point and we came so, so close to getting it. Yep, not a game where we created a great deal, but strangely I always had a sneaky feeling we might get one chance and nick a goal. I thought SD was proved spot on to play the extra defender as we frustrated and limited them to few real chances and our backs to the wall stuff may not bring them flocking to watch MOTD, but I was proud as...It was so ironic we were eventually undone by a long hopeful hoofball and by 2 CBs jumping for and not wining the same ball which ultimately left Eriksion free. I was absolutely soaking wet and freezing when I got into Wembley, got even wetter waiting in the queue for the train back to Marylebone after and really felt for all the Clarets who'd bothered to turn up and for the players too as that precious point would have made us all feel so much warmer. As for the referee, well it's become a common gripe, but they really must be under instructions not to do anything to upset the big 6 clubs because he gave us absolutely nothing and the bookings we got were a sheer nonsense imo, especially when Brady couldn't take the free kick because Kane was standing in the way.

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by NL Claret » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:53 pm

Liverpool and Arsenal goalkeepers made a couple of blunders resulting in goals today, not much mention on UTC (just like Tom letting in 6 for the under 23s last week) yet there is uber analysis on Hart. The goalkeeping experts on UTC continue to raise the bar.

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:05 pm

TVC15 wrote:I understand exactly what you are saying and I think you are wrong and being far too critical.
As you said you are in a minority of one and there is a good reason for this.
I have said a few times I do not like the way he stays on his line and this is why I prefer Pope. But for this goal and with so many of our defenders in the box together with the way the ball was put directly into the box rather than a cross coming in from out wide, staying on your line / 6 yard box is exactly what a keeper should be doing. The fault is very clearly with our defence for that goal.
I'm with spice, TVC15 on this one. OK, I was at the far end of Wembley and my long vision isn't so great these days. The way I see it, the keeper, who ever was in goals should have been telling his defenders not to leave Erikksen on the left (or right from keeper's point of view). Maybe, just maybe, someone would have been a bit closer to him. And, the keeper should have been moving forward to narrow the angle and block the shot and not just stationary on his line.
However, I'll leave it to Billy Mercer and Sean Dyche to sort it out.

My marks, 7 for all the team, except for

Kevin Long, 8. Kevin deserves mom because, I think I'm right on this, it is the first time he has started in the Premier League when there are 3 other fit central defenders to choose from. OK, we played 3 at the back, and Kevin did well, as he often does. And, our £15 million signing, Ben Gibson, was fit enough to be on the bench.

UTC

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by Hibsclaret » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:08 am

claretspice wrote:Blimey, are we still on this?

In that picture, every Burnley player is moving except one - Hart is stationary, in a position where he's got next to no chance of stopping the ball. It may well only be 2 seconds - if you've counted then good for you - but in that time as I keep saying Tarks travels about 8 yards - from being on the penalty spot to sliding across the 6 yard box to try and block it.

My point is simply that Hart could - I think should - also be advancing off his line at the point of your still to get as close to Eriksen as possible, and moving across his goal line to block off the near post as far as possible (he's so far over in your freeze frame, the near post isn't even in shot). In the event, all he does is shuffle a half pace to his right, which is not nearly enough to give himself any chance of stopping the shot, or forcing Eriksen to aim for the far post (where there's a much greater chance of the shot being blocked). I have no idea why if Tarks can move 8 yards, Hart can't be expected to move further across his goal and out towards Eriksen.

We can analyse this frame by frame if you want (I suspect a freeze of the point Eriksen shoots would reveal Hart to be on pretty much the same spot, whilst Tarks and Eriksen have moved a few strides forwards), but this boils down to the fact I think a top keeper does more to make that chance difficult than Hart does, and should not be leaving such a big target at the near post. As I keep saying, if you disagree then fine. I'm entitled to my opinion - you are entitled to yours.
Now we have a picture to prove a point. The more you talk the more it becomes true....

Hart did nothing wrong on that goal. Anyone thinking he did knows absolutely nothing about the game. What if Kane shoots rather than passes? Hart is perfectly positioned for that. It was bad defending for the goal clearly.

In terms of the new system it worked really well but the best 3 chances for them came at the end when we were tiring and on more than one occasion 2 defenders went for the same ball. We will get better playing the new system and the ultimate test is when the team is tired and up against fresh top quality players as was the case on Saturday.

I think we can see that Spurs would have had more attempts with us playing the system we have had all season. We need to give this time because on first viewing the system works well in games like the one on Saturday.

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by BOYSIE31 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:44 am

Hart 8
Bardsley 8
Long 8
Tarkowski 8
Mee 8
Taylor 8
Lennon 6
Westwood 5
Cork 5
Brady 6
Barnes 6

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Re: Tottenham v Burnley - Player Ratings

Post by BOYSIE31 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:08 am

claretspice wrote:Blimey, are we still on this?

In that picture, every Burnley player is moving except one - Hart is stationary, in a position where he's got next to no chance of stopping the ball. It may well only be 2 seconds - if you've counted then good for you - but in that time as I keep saying Tarks travels about 8 yards - from being on the penalty spot to sliding across the 6 yard box to try and block it.

My point is simply that Hart could - I think should - also be advancing off his line at the point of your still to get as close to Eriksen as possible, and moving across his goal line to block off the near post as far as possible (he's so far over in your freeze frame, the near post isn't even in shot). In the event, all he does is shuffle a half pace to his right, which is not nearly enough to give himself any chance of stopping the shot, or forcing Eriksen to aim for the far post (where there's a much greater chance of the shot being blocked). I have no idea why if Tarks can move 8 yards, Hart can't be expected to move further across his goal and out towards Eriksen.

We can analyse this frame by frame if you want (I suspect a freeze of the point Eriksen shoots would reveal Hart to be on pretty much the same spot, whilst Tarks and Eriksen have moved a few strides forwards), but this boils down to the fact I think a top keeper does more to make that chance difficult than Hart does, and should not be leaving such a big target at the near post. As I keep saying, if you disagree then fine. I'm entitled to my opinion - you are entitled to yours.
So what does Hart do if he curls it into the other far corner which his bady shape looked like he might do ?

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