Smart Motorway

Bfcboyo · Post by **Bfcboyo** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:05 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46553654" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can we stop wasting money on these now . My first reaction to smart motorway work was to think they must be building the infastructure for driverless electric vehicles in 50 years time. Not the confusing 40mph , 60mph, 50mph , 60mph , 40mph and so on ridiculous changes of speed limit clearly doing nothing.
Whilst clearly providing a death trap to broken down vehicles.

Stop all work spend on NHS and road repairs.

mikeS · Post by **mikeS** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:45 am

Tend to agree. Use the Sinister Island stretch to Prestwich each day and wonder what’s been achieved here.

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:46 am

They need scapping off.We use the M42 on the way back home and often its traffic is light yet the Highways agency drop the speed to 50mph showing fictitious signs about non existent animals,debris or workforce in the road to justify the resultant chaos
Most drivers can manage speed to suit the traffic.They dont need nannying.
The work on the M6 near Knutsford is a disgrace.Finished months ago yet still restricted

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:51 am

mikeS wrote:Tend to agree. Use the Sinister Island stretch to Prestwich each day and wonder what’s been achieved here.

They will only become "smart" when drivers choose the correct lane to drive in or to actually use the hard shoulder when the signs tell you to. A lot of drivers will drive in lane 2 of 3 or 3 of 4 regardless of overtaking which means lane 1 has virtually no traffic thus making it a dual carriageway. Some drivers would probably do the whole of their motorway journey in the middle lane believing they shouldn't be in the slow or fast lane, which don't actually exist.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:00 am

Educating people which lane to be in would be a start.
So many plod along in the middle lane forcing overtaking motorists to filter into one lane instead of two which backs it all up.

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:28 am

I like the smart motorways and I think they work well once the years of roadworks and average speed cameras are cleared. Places like Sinster Island is never to be be fixed by smart motorways, the sheer volume of traffic using that area will mean that regardless of the system in place there will always be a build up of traffic

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:33 am

Rather than doing the smart thing they should do savvy motorways i.e. When they start the work on the hard shoulder they should make it into an extra lane, add another one and build a hard shoulder that can easily become a 5th or sixth lane into the future

Pimlico_Claret · Post by **Pimlico_Claret** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:47 am

Proved to be dangerous with no hard shoulder, and drivers constantly looking up and down as speed limits change every few hundred yards. Cash cows, nothing more.

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:52 am

Pimlico_Claret wrote:Proved to be dangerous with no hard shoulder, and drivers constantly looking up and down as speed limits change every few hundred yards. Cash cows, nothing more.

Rubbish, the facts in the article demonstrates a very limited (if any) increase in deaths/injuries from the lack of hard shoulder and if you are unable to look at an information board you quite frankly shouldn’t be on the road. I would suggest that if you are needing to ‘look up’ at the board you are leaving it far too late to take potentially vital information in and your driving is therefore dangerous

Pimlico_Claret · Post by **Pimlico_Claret** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:57 am

MRG wrote:Rubbish, the facts in the article demonstrates a very limited (if any) increase in deaths/injuries from the lack of hard shoulder and if you are unable to look at an information board you quite frankly shouldn’t be on the road. I would suggest that if you are needing to ‘look up’ at the board you are leaving it far too late to take potentially vital information in and your driving is therefore dangerous

I wasn't referring to the information boards, I was referring to the speed limit signs, and consequently your speedo. You can't possibly argue that changing the speed limit every few hundred yards over the course of few miles doesn't add extra distraction of driving on already overcrowded motorways.
One limit, 70,we all know and the vast majority of us will adapt our driving habits to the conditions around, knowing there is a safety net, hard shoulder, should your car suddenly develop a problem.

rufus lumley · Post by **rufus lumley** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:02 am

The M1 south of Wakefield and M6 south of Stafford both seem to work well.The M42 and M60 seems like a waste of money and the M25 would need 6 lanes to keep the traffic moving.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:12 am

MRG wrote:I like the smart motorways and I think they work well once the years of roadworks and average speed cameras are cleared. Places like Sinster Island is never to be be fixed by smart motorways, the sheer volume of traffic using that area will mean that regardless of the system in place there will always be a build up of traffic

The average speed cameras will remain I think. If they were temporary, they would be powered by generators. They are hard wired I believe (mate works on the motorways) so are here to stay.

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:17 am

Pimlico_Claret wrote:I wasn't referring to the information boards, I was referring to the speed limit signs, and consequently your speedo. You can't possibly argue that changing the speed limit every few hundred yards over the course of few miles doesn't add extra distraction of driving on already overcrowded motorways.
One limit, 70,we all know and the vast majority of us will adapt our driving habits to the conditions around, knowing there is a safety net, hard shoulder, should your car suddenly develop a problem.

I still can’t agree. The speed signs are next to the information signs as well as boards high give very important information such as lane closures, information that could be the difference between life and death.

In relation to changing speeds, studies show that on ‘normal motorways’ cars drive at ‘70 mph’ up to the car in front then break which causes miles of breaking at times. The idea of the smart motorway is to stop this so in theory everybody should drive at 50mph instead if 70 then 20 then 70 as is now the case. The amount of speed changes are much less on a smart motorway

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:18 am

This Sinister Island sounds interesting.

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:18 am

bobinho wrote:The average speed cameras will remain I think. If they were temporary, they would be powered by generators. They are hard wired I believe (mate works on the motorways) so are here to stay.

Again that isn’t correct. The stretch of the M60 towards the Trafford Cebtre is a good example of an area where the average speed cameras were located during the roadworks but have now been removed

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:37 am

What about the stretches of the M1, M62, (insert name of motorway here) where they HAVEN’T been removed?

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:58 am

As mentioned above a smart motorway won't fix simister island nor will it fix the problem where the M60 meets the M62 and M602. A lot of drivers haven't got a clue what lane to be in, the traffic joinging from Worsley generally tend to want to carry on the M60 therefore have to cross a couple of lanes and drivers leave it too late to get in the right lane. Almost every time I go that way I will see some clown driving over the chevrons to either join or leave the M60.

The standard of motorway driving is poor, joining M66 at Simister last week there was some idiot crossing the chevrons, straddling lanes and then doing 30mph in lane 1. I suppose when you have a mobile phone held to your ear, driving with due care and attention is difficult. Stuck on the M6 a few weeks back, crawling, I had keep using my mirror in case the car behind was going to drive in the back of me. The driver appeared to paying more attention to what was on the passenger seat. I dare say the hold up was causing him a few problems and he was working while he was driving.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:04 am

Bordeauxclaret wrote:This Sinister Island sounds interesting.

Indeed. I wonder if it’s like Fantasy Island, Love Island, or Simister Island.

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:12 am

Lord Beamish wrote:Indeed. I wonder if it’s like Fantasy Island, Love Island, or Simister Island.

https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussio ... ter-island" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/light ... ural-g.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bfcboyo · Post by **Bfcboyo** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:24 am

NL Claret wrote:They will only become "smart" when drivers choose the correct lane to drive in or to actually use the hard shoulder when the signs tell you to. A lot of drivers will drive in lane 2 of 3 or 3 of 4 regardless of overtaking which means lane 1 has virtually no traffic thus making it a dual carriageway. Some drivers would probably do the whole of their motorway journey in the middle lane believing they shouldn't be in the slow or fast lane, which don't actually exist.

Defies the object doesn't it . A ten minute trip anywhere will tell you drivers are not smart.

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:33 am

Bfcboyo wrote:Defies the object doesn't it . A ten minute trip anywhere will tell you drivers are not smart.

I like to think I am smart .... Shirt, Tie and a rather nice Jacket...

OK teamed with Bermuda Shorts might seem odd but I think it looks good

BigChaCha · Post by **BigChaCha** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:03 pm

My first reaction to smart motorway work was to think they must be building the infastructure for driverless electric vehicles in 50 years time

Whether you like it or not, in 50 years time 99% of vehicles will be fully autonomous. Actually it's more likely to be 30 years. There is going to be a nightmare transition period of about 20 years before we get to that stage and there will be lots of infrastructure changes like the smart motorway over the next 2 decades.

Whether smart motorways are the answer, who knows but it won't be the last inconvenience we face before we find the right model to be able us to have a fully autonomous, electric vehicle system. This is going to happen and we need to make sure we don't get left behind!

RMutt · Post by **RMutt** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:16 pm

What about traffic lights? I don’t think I have seen any improvement over a roundabout in any of the junctions where this change has been made. In fact at one set I know the traffic flows better at rush hour when the lights are broken.

Im_not_Robbie_Blake · Post by **Im_not_Robbie_Blake** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:44 pm

RMutt wrote:What about traffic lights? I don’t think I have seen any improvement over a roundabout in any of the junctions where this change has been made. In fact at one set I know the traffic flows better at rush hour when the lights are broken.

'Smart' traffic lights should be the answer. There are some, and the technology isn't mind-boggling and it needs applying to all traffic lights to maintain a flow.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:47 pm

I travel a lot on motorways around the north and Midlands. There are often speed restrictions for no apparent reason. Recently coming up the M1 around Seffield there was a speed restriction and the reason? To reduce pollution? Laughable.

But these are dangerous with constant speed changes 40, 50, 60, 40. Looking at the speedometer a lot can be dangerous.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:55 pm

MRG wrote:Rubbish, the facts in the article demonstrates a very limited (if any) increase in deaths/injuries from the lack of hard shoulder and if you are unable to look at an information board you quite frankly shouldn’t be on the road. I would suggest that if you are needing to ‘look up’ at the board you are leaving it far too late to take potentially vital information in and your driving is therefore dangerous

Yes but after you've looked up at the board you have to look at time speedometer. Dangerous. Fact is much if the money spent on ancilliary things - not the road itself - is wasted money. Too much furniture everywhere.

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:51 pm

Stayingup wrote:Yes but after you've looked up at the board you have to look at time speedometer. Dangerous. Fact is much if the money spent on ancilliary things - not the road itself - is wasted money. Too much furniture everywhere.

Its not the first time I've had to dodge a sofa on the M6 (furniture) obviously come off someones trailer/roofrack....

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:11 pm

When upgrading these motorways, the average speed camera signs were interspersed with large signs featuring a young girl, with the caption " Please drive carefully, my Daddy works on this motorway ! " .... With the limit at 50, clear traffic, good weather and not a workman for miles, I've grimly muttered " Well, someone should ring your Mum because he's either up to no good or down the pub, because he's sure as hell not working here ! "

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:26 pm

Upgrading to smart motorways has cost billions, not only in the cost of motorways but the cost of lost business meetings because you can’t get there and the loss of investment in the UK because you can’t get from A-B. Some 65% of motorways have lanes closed off making our road system one of the worst in the world

If you break down on a smart motorway you are very highly likely to be hit by another vehicle which means extra lanes are going to have to be added or lanes removed

Altogether an almighty criminal waste of time, effort and money

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:49 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Educating people which lane to be in would be a start.
So many plod along in the middle lane forcing overtaking motorists to filter into one lane instead of two which backs it all up.

There are less accidents in the middle lane than any other , so I will continue to use this lane

dermotdermot · Post by **dermotdermot** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:53 pm

I don’t really understand what a ‘smart’ motorway is. They spent years ‘upgrading’ the M3 and it’s just as congested as ever. I started to use the A3 instead when they started the work and I’m sticking to it from now on. Hardly any traffic to speak of, far more scenic and you get to go through the Hindhead Tunnel as well.

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:59 pm

Made a massive difference to the M62 round Leeds. And if you're driving and wonder why the speed has been dropped from 70 but there's no queues or anything, that's because it's working. Queuing theory demonstrates if you limit input to a system it clears quicker.

And anyone who can't easily keep an eye on the signs isn't looking far enough ahead and shouldn't be on a motorway

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:26 pm

BabylonClaret wrote:Made a massive difference to the M62 round Leeds. And if you're driving and wonder why the speed has been dropped from 70 but there's no queues or anything, that's because it's working. Queuing theory demonstrates if you limit input to a system it clears quicker.

And anyone who can't easily keep an eye on the signs isn't looking far enough ahead and shouldn't be on a motorway

Exactly. The smart motorway has definitely improved traffic float on the M62 between Leeds and Hudds. As you say, the people who are complaining that the speed limit has been reduced but can’t tell why obviously don’t get the point. The reduction in speed is a measure to keep the traffic moving.

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:40 pm

Smart motorways reduce the old rubber banding effect... "people speed up to a queue then have slow right down and stop"... there by all the sheep following stop. Causing delays and tailbacks.....

With smart motorways traffic is slowed down but not stopping (well stopping as much ... in theory) there by speeding up traffic flow....

If run correctly they work well...

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:22 am

bobinho wrote:What about the stretches of the M1, M62, (insert name of motorway here) where they HAVEN’T been removed?

The average speed cameras have been removed on both the M62 and M6 once the work to upgrade to the smart motorway has been completed. If they didn’t remove them the smart motorway would be pointless

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:48 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Educating people which lane to be in would be a start

That's exactly the problem

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:06 pm

BabylonClaret wrote:Made a massive difference to the M62 round Leeds. And if you're driving and wonder why the speed has been dropped from 70 but there's no queues or anything, that's because it's working. Queuing theory demonstrates if you limit input to a system it clears quicker.

And anyone who can't easily keep an eye on the signs isn't looking far enough ahead and shouldn't be on a motorway

Come on. There are queues on the M62 round Leeds. Depends on the time and day

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:08 pm

Smart motorway gantries have cameras. That's another hazard if as happens someone slams their breaks on.

Billyblah · Post by **Billyblah** » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:01 pm

mdd2 wrote:Rather than doing the smart thing they should do savvy motorways i.e. When they start the work on the hard shoulder they should make it into an extra lane, add another one and build a hard shoulder that can easily become a 5th or sixth lane into the future

Sixth lane? Just how many lanes does the UK need? The reality of the situation is that we are a nation obsessed by tin boxes with a wheel on each corner.

Pavements and grasses areas are overcome by them as we haven't sufficient land on which to store them all.
Sadly we are a nation that has historically underfunded and under invested in public transport infrastructure.
The current Northern Rail fiasco is an example of that.

Sutton-Claret · Post by **Sutton-Claret** » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:25 pm

I cover a lot of mileage across the M62 and other areas that have Smart Motorways -I do actually think they work and would be happier driving along at 40mph on the M62 rather than in stop start traffic.

Somewhere around the Leeds area last week, on the M62, I saw 3 lanes with 40mph and 1 with 50mph...

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:06 pm

Woodleyclaret wrote:They need scapping off.We use the M42 on the way back home and often its traffic is light yet the Highways agency drop the speed to 50mph showing fictitious signs about non existent animals,debris or workforce in the road to justify the resultant chaos
Most drivers can manage speed to suit the traffic.They dont need nannying.
The work on the M6 near Knutsford is a disgrace.Finished months ago yet still restricted

Knutsford really is the limit!

Bfcboyo · Post by **Bfcboyo** » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:27 pm

RMutt wrote:What about traffic lights? I don’t think I have seen any improvement over a roundabout in any of the junctions where this change has been made. In fact at one set I know the traffic flows better at rush hour when the lights are broken.

Does not help when the lunatics have the foot down racing around the roundabout . They set off 10 seconds before the lights are on green and don't give people a chance to safely get out. They are already honking the horn 40 yds away determined not to let people out.

Useless useless bitter angry little road sheizens.

Claretitus · Post by **Claretitus** » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:59 pm

The M62 Smart motorway Eastbound, between Halifax and Leeds, not so "smart" today. There was a problem with the control system, which resulted in one lane being unnecessarily closed, causing long tailbacks, and a 30 minute delay to clear it. This wasn't just for an hour or so, but most of the day. Smart? Don't make me laugh. Only "smart" because the cameras are doing all the work, not plod.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:58 am

IanMcL wrote:Knutsford really is the limit!

Knutsford city limits?

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:02 pm

Pimlico_Claret wrote:I wasn't referring to the information boards, I was referring to the speed limit signs, and consequently your speedo. You can't possibly argue that changing the speed limit every few hundred yards over the course of few miles doesn't add extra distraction of driving on already overcrowded motorways.
One limit, 70,we all know and the vast majority of us will adapt our driving habits to the conditions around, knowing there is a safety net, hard shoulder, should your car suddenly develop a problem.

I agree with this totally. Not so much the smart motorways as a problem but average speed cameras. I would like to see some stats on the numbers of accidents when these are in place because constantly checking your speed to make sure you haven't 'drifted over the limit' for a few hundred yards I find downright dangerous. Even Grane Road between Haslingden and Blackburn feels somehow more dangerous than it was before the introduction of these bloody things. I know there are idiots on the road but most drivers who have been driving more than 5 minutes know when to control speed and assess the dangers. Checking your speed all the time means less time spent on looking at the road - it only takes a second to have an accident.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:56 pm

Sutton-Claret wrote:I cover a lot of mileage across the M62 and other areas that have Smart Motorways -I do actually think they work and would be happier driving along at 40mph on the M62 rather than in stop start traffic.

Somewhere around the Leeds area last week, on the M62, I saw 3 lanes with 40mph and 1 with 50mph...

I was there this morning. It was stop start for miles.