Vokes and Barnes to be sold

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ClaretAndJew
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by ClaretAndJew » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:34 pm

boatshed bill wrote::D :D :D
I'm sure we put Danny Ings in a few times! :D
I miss that season. And 2015/16

And 2008/09.

randomclaret2
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by randomclaret2 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:36 pm

The bottom line is something needs to change or we will be relegated...I can understand frustrations about the very idea of moving Vokes and/ or Barnes on but something needs to happen. Our results have been lousy for 12 months now.

TVC15
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by TVC15 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:42 pm

boatshed bill wrote:All our stats ignore the quality of chances we create.
When did we last create a one on one; strikers vs keeper?
Yesterday

boatshed bill
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by boatshed bill » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:43 pm

Barnes appears to be the only one of our strikers who has a clue about feeding on scraps (in my opinion, of course).

boatshed bill
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by boatshed bill » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:44 pm

TVC15 wrote:Yesterday
I must have missed that!

Long Time Lurker
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by Long Time Lurker » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:45 pm

I can't see any truth in this from a rational perspective. If it is true our transfer policy will have gone from below average to abysmal.

Vokes has proven to be a very good impact sub in the past and he feeds on crosses into the box. He also excels in defending our goal from set pieces.

Barnes hit a rich scoring vein last season. In addition to that he is excellent at ruffling the feathers of the opposition and winning free kicks that have been an important scoring vehicle for us. He is also a much better player than lot of people give him credit for being.

At the moment I would say that the pair of them are our best and most important strikers. £10m for each of them is laughable, given their new contracts. If we did sell them relegation would be a lock.

If the idea is to sell them to raise funds so we can pay way over the odds for Jay Rod, a striker who has done okay in the Championship, we need to give our heads a bobble. 6 goals from open play and 4 penalties in 23 matches doesn't really represent a great strike rate and 2 assists is nothing special. Looking purely at the figures he is achieving the same 1 in 4 ratio that he has done in past seasons, albeit at a lower level now.

Dwight Gayle is currently the stand out striker at WBA by a wide margin. To his credit Gayle has 11 goals from open play, 2 from free kicks and 5 assists in 20 games. Same team, same position, same games and more than double the return.

I can see why WBA would want to sell Jay in the next window for somewhere, anywhere, near the vastly inflated price they had on him in the last window. They could use that money to buy Dwight and a young striker.

If they don't win promotion that would be a stronger combination than what they would have by keeping Jay.

If they did win promotion they might have a chance of signing Rondon to a new deal as a partner for Gayle.

Taking all of that into account I could see WBA being very eager to offload Jay in the next window for a vastly inflated fee. Considering his Championship performances this season it would be high on my to do list. I'm not saying he has been bad, but being okay in the Championship isn't good enough for the ridiculous amount of money they were asking in the last window.

A figure closer to £10m would still be too much and he wouldn't improve us at all. Putting aside the 4 penalties Nahki has an almost identical scoring/assist record this season and he is already on our books.

So I can certainly see WBA doing everything they can to offload Jay in the next window to bring in a sizeable amount of money that they can use to improve their squad. The point being that any team with the money to pay for him could put it to much better use.

Selling either Barnes or Vokes would be a huge mistake that would severely damage our chances of avoiding relegation.

If we don't survive it would also damage our chances of coming back up. Both players are vitally important to us at this current juncture and for the foreseeable future, regardless of how this season ends.

To my mind we need to improve on our midfield options in the next window and forget about high cost strikers until the next window. If we can increase the service to our lads up front we will have enough quality to get the job done. Making a change to midfield could easily result in more chances (which could lead to more goals) or even goals from midfield.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by kaptin1 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:47 pm

Straight swap for Lacazette and Aubameyang

TVC15
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by TVC15 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:47 pm

Barnes created for Westwood - I know he’s not a striker !
Wood if he would not have had an awful touch would have been through....just like he was against Liverpool but thought he would turn back and try and beat one of the best defenders in the world with his exquisite skill and pace !

boatshed bill
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by boatshed bill » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:51 pm

TVC15 wrote:Barnes created for Westwood - I know he’s not a striker !
Wood if he would not have had an awful touch would have been through....just like he was against Liverpool but thought he would turn back and try and beat one of the best defenders in the world with his exquisite skill and pace !
You know what I mean, though. Our strikers don't get set up very well. Vokes has missed a few headers, but on the whole we don't break defences down.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by TVC15 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:02 pm

We don’t have natural strikers who have that movement which gets them into the right places. We have had them recently in Austin and Ings but not now. Vydra probably most natural striker but he has never done it in this league and there are many a prolific championship striker who can’t hack it in the Premier League against much faster, cleverer defenders.

But yes I agree you also need midfielders to deliver the right passes.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by bfcjg » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:14 pm

Barnes is our best striker. TBH the rest could be sold and use the wages saved on a package for a proven top level striker

boatshed bill
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by boatshed bill » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:23 pm

TVC15 wrote:We don’t have natural strikers who have that movement which gets them into the right places. We have had them recently in Austin and Ings but not now. Vydra probably most natural striker but he has never done it in this league and there are many a prolific championship striker who can’t hack it in the Premier League against much faster, cleverer defenders.

But yes I agree you also need midfielders to deliver the right passes.
Our strikers would have to be in two places at one time (and there's often only one of them anyhow), to win the high ball, knock it down and get a return pass to slip him in! That player would cost our entire budget :D

BFC88
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by BFC88 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:52 pm

Wood is clearly playing with a lack of confidence however i actually think he's our best finisher.

The issue is, as some have alluded to, our total lack of creativity. He (plus the other strikers) gets no service whatsoever. Sergio Aguero would struggle to hit double figures in this team. It HAS to be addressed in January or we are going to be up against it.

On the topic of us selling Vokes and Barnes, no chance. It would be ridiculous to allow either one to leave, particilarly Barnes who i think is our all round best striker.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by Burnleyareback2 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:09 pm

No matter what league we are in or what position you always will need an “Ashley Barnes” it would be a horrific decision to sell him.
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by IanMcL » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:32 pm

Ten million for our Ashley would be a giveaway. He is deceptively skilful and gives everything, which translates inrmto a torrid time for all defenders and also goals for us.

If the club are considering it, then whoever is the one suggesting it should leave now.
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by jojomk1 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:40 am

This situation with our current set of strikers just confirms what a shambles our recruitment process has been over recent years
Barnes, Vokes and Wood are all still contracted for another two seasons after this and Vydra even more. That will take Barnes and Vokes into their early 30's and Wood almost at 30. Add to that the money wasted on Wells and Walters (inc sign on fees and wages) and god knows what the final bill will be for them all.
Can fully understand that Garlick will not be wanting to spend any more money on new striking additions until we clear some of this financial burden
The manager has final decision on all personnel involved in transfers and contracts so he cannot be cleared of any blame

BabylonClaret
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by BabylonClaret » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:44 am

wilks_bfc wrote:How anybody can say Vydra isn’t good enough based on the number of minutes he’s actually played is a mystery.

If he’d been given the same amount of time Wood has had then fair enough but to base it on the 5/10mins he gets at the end of a game that’s already lost is ridiculous
I don't see why not. He's had more than Wells did overall and plenty on here were glad to see the back of him

Vydra is too lightweight for our side. I'm at a loss why we spent so much on him.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by JTClaret » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:00 am

Barnes is a cult hero nowadays - we can't sell him

Vokes I'd be sad to see go, he's better than Wood and don't feel he's past it.
As for Wood, he needs to up his game. Poor touch, forever offside, yet somehow miles away when the chances go across the goal (there was a chance on Saturday which if he'd been in his usual position (when he is just onside) and actually running it could have been a tap in)

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by jrgbfc » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:04 pm

That's the problem with blindly giving the likes of Barnes and Vokes contact extensions. We've left ourselves very little room for manoeuvre now. For me we should have chosen one of them to keep and let the other run his contact down.

taio
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by taio » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:07 pm

jrgbfc wrote:That's the problem with blindly giving the likes of Barnes and Vokes contact extensions. We've left ourselves very little room for manoeuvre now. For me we should have chosen one of them to keep and let the other run his contact down.
Why does it cause a problem? One of them can be sold. Few people thought it be right to do so though. So it was right to award them new contracts.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by jrgbfc » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:10 pm

taio wrote:Why does it cause a problem? One of them can be sold. Few people thought it be right to do so though. So it was right to award them new contracts.
Don't think there'll be a host of clubs beating our door down for either of them to be honest.

taio
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by taio » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:11 pm

jrgbfc wrote:Don't think there'll be a host of clubs beating our door down for either of them to be honest.
Disagree. There would be interest I'm sure. Neither of us know.

SGr
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by SGr » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:39 pm

Vokes would surely have some Championship suitors given his experience and recent record there. Wouldn’t be shocked if Pulis reignited interest.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by SmudgetheClaret » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:44 pm

We need players in not out ...

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by Billyblah » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:58 pm

ewanrob wrote:Yes Vydra, far to lighweight and doesnt move the ball quick enough. Would love him to be a hit, and i really hope im wrong. But he is a million miles from what we need, as i say..far to much sentiment involved. We are a business, we need to stay in this league.
Vydra offered a couple of nifty moves during his late cameo appearance again Arsenal. We need to see more of him and linking up with a new signing that can boss and bully in midfield
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FactualFrank
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:11 pm

Edit. Read it on hitc
Last edited by FactualFrank on Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by boyyanno » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:13 pm

Barnes is easily the best striker we have at the club for how we play. He brings the ball down and provides a platform for attack. Vokes is the next best because he wins headers and is good as an aerial threat.

Wood might be a decent finisher but his all round game is poor and when he's not scoring he isn't contributing. All of our players must contribute for us to be successful.

Vydra is an unknown quantity yet, but he reminds me of Hennings and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

I also don't buy the "we never create chances" stuff. We create far fewer chances than most sides but we do still get golden opportunities in games, Westwoods one on one and the chance Wood had yesterday are examples of that.

I'd move any of the current forwards out apart from Barnes if it meant we could re-invest. I was against re-signing Jay at the beginning of this season but I'd swap him in a heartbeat for Wood. Not only can he score but he can actually link play. We need to sign some forward players who have more than one string to their bow.
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by tiger76 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:54 pm

boyyanno wrote:Barnes is easily the best striker we have at the club for how we play. He brings the ball down and provides a platform for attack. Vokes is the next best because he wins headers and is good as an aerial threat.

Wood might be a decent finisher but his all round game is poor and when he's not scoring he isn't contributing. All of our players must contribute for us to be successful.

Vydra is an unknown quantity yet, but he reminds me of Hennings and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

I also don't buy the "we never create chances" stuff. We create far fewer chances than most sides but we do still get golden opportunities in games, Westwoods one on one and the chance Wood had yesterday are examples of that.

I'd move any of the current forwards out apart from Barnes if it meant we could re-invest. I was against re-signing Jay at the beginning of this season but I'd swap him in a heartbeat for Wood. Not only can he score but he can actually link play. We need to sign some forward players who have more than one string to their bow.
Pretty accurate summing up,last season Wood would have buried that chance,and it's not the only time he's fluffed his lines recently,the Newcastle 6-pointer he had 3 decent chances and only hit the target with the first,we can't afford luxury players in a relegation fight,and at the moment Wood is a luxury.

The only problem is why would West Brom sell Jay-Rod in this window,when they have a good shout at an instant Premier League return,they won't lose much of Jay's transfer value by waiting till the summer,and also why would Jay come here when it's a 50/50 chance of us or West Brom being a Premier League team in 6 months time.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by ontario claret » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:51 pm

Both Wood and Hendrick lack passion. For a club that survives in the top flight solely on passion, this is not a good thing. They both lack a second gear,and the ability to get stuck in. I'm convinced that Hendrick was signed to an extension just so that he can be transferred in the upcoming window.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by Nonayforever » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:28 pm

Wood, Vydra, Lennon, Brady, Defour, Hendrick, Cork, Westwood, Lowton and probably Taylor are all worth less now than what we paid for them. Barnes & Vokes on the other hand are worth more.

Easy formula.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by boyyanno » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:30 pm

ontario claret wrote:Both Wood and Hendrick lack passion. For a club that survives in the top flight solely on passion, this is not a good thing. They both lack a second gear,and the ability to get stuck in. I'm convinced that Hendrick was signed to an extension just so that he can be transferred in the upcoming window.
I think that's harsh, I am a big critic of Wood and also Hendrick but I'm not sure it's "passion" that they lack. In a way it's quality but in a way it's also because neither are particularly suited to how we play. Hendrick is neither the creative AMC or the ball winning midfielder we need. He covers a lot of ground and is capable of a neat touch but he tends to have zero impact in the games he plays. Only two games can I re-call him being effective and they we're Liverpool and Watford the other year. He's not a bad player, but he's not particularly good at anything or different enough to what we have. Wood is the same, his all-around game leaves a lot to be desired, hes incapable of beating a man, seemingly week for a big man, and technically not great. For his goals I would rather have Barnes who does contribute goals (slightly less) but also offers the team something. I was also a critic of Gray but at least he had pace and strength which offered us a different dynamic.

I don't think either lack passion though. Hendrick is probably a bit demoralised and Wood is that sulky type.

For me they just don't suit us. Hendrick needs to play in a 5 man midfield who have more of the ball and Wood needs to play for a team that creates a lot of opportunities. I guess that's why he found his level at the top of the championship because teams towards the bottom of the prem don't. People will point to his goals last year but he still offered little and didn't particularly score any our other forwards wouldn't. We were a better team then.

Also all the teams in the prem have stepped up their intensity and work rate so it's no longer our thing anymore. I think that's had a big impact.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by joey13 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:59 pm

Billyblah wrote:Vydra offered a couple of nifty moves during his late cameo appearance again Arsenal. We need to see more of him and linking up with a new signing that can boss and bully in midfield
Is running onto the pitch classed as a nifty move because he did f all else other than show a lack of pace and ball control and showed exactly why he hasn’t been getting a start

Longsider
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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by Longsider » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:48 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote: If we can increase the service to our lads up front we will have enough quality to get the job done. Making a change to midfield could easily result in more chances (which could lead to more goals) or even goals from midfield.

Bingo.

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Re: Vokes and Barnes to be sold

Post by clive40golf » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:40 am

[quote="Nonayforever"]Wood, Vydra, Lennon, Brady, Defour, Hendrick, Cork, Westwood, Lowton and probably Taylor are all worth less now than what we paid for them. Barnes & Vokes on the other hand are worth more.

Don’t agree with your thinking there friend. Lowton,Westwood,Taylor,Cork & Brady cost absolute nothing compared to today’s markets do there’s no way we could buy their quality today for the price we paid.
Lennon and Defour were Bargains and I doubt their prices would have dropped below their purchase price either.
Agree about Barnes and Vokes though

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