As suspected Corbyn supports Brexit..

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:50 pm

This is where the power struggle begins in the Labour party this is a very smart move by JC..

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/c ... ailsignout" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:04 pm

It wasnt a secret was it?

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:04 pm

An old fashioned Trot who will upset many Labour Party members with his Brexit support.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:06 pm

He had to do something there was very real danger he was going to win a snap election and have to run the country with his cabinet. Most of them I pressume to be busy at this time of the year in theatres up and down the land...

"They're not behind you!"

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:21 pm

He's the main reason i'm not worried about the losers vote brigade, Corbyn is, and always has been, an out and out brexiteer.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:45 pm

Guardian reported yesterday (someone may have a link) that if he was PM JC would continue to deliver Brexit. JC wants to nationalise parts of British industry. Those sort of things are against EU rules. That is one of JC's reasons for wanting out.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:49 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Guardian reported yesterday (someone may have a link) that if he was PM JC would continue to deliver Brexit. JC wants to nationalise parts of British industry. Those sort of things are against EU rules. That is one of JC's reasons for wanting out.

I'm sure someone with expertise will give details but as i understand EU rules state aid isn't permissible.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:54 pm

There isn't going to be any snap election, and if it comes down to a straight choice between No deal or No brexit, I doubt it will be Labour policy to back the former, so it's really not a big story, especially as Corbyn's position is no real surprise to anyone.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:22 pm

tiger76 wrote:I'm sure someone with expertise will give details but as i understand EU rules state aid isn't permissible.

Only in certain circumstances, or when the German's say it's OK, like most EU rules and regulations !

The French are considering nationalising the Ford factory that's due to close next year, and refusing to allow Ford to tender to supply Police and Government vehicles, in breach of EU procurement rules, but no-one will do anything. Nor will they about the French debt ( over 3% of GDP ) surplus forecast for next year. The EU is heading towards recession, France has it's well documented problems, Italy has had no economic growth for 10 years, the Greeks and the Spanish economies are struggling, and there are EU Parliament elections in late May next year ....

2019 would have been interesting enough without Brexit !!

Foulthrow · Post by **Foulthrow** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:13 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Guardian reported yesterday (someone may have a link) that if he was PM JC would continue to deliver Brexit. JC wants to nationalise parts of British industry. Those sort of things are against EU rules. That is one of JC's reasons for wanting out.

This is what always makes me laugh when you see the neo-cons advocating for Brexit - yes, it might deliver you to some free trade utopia - but, remember, Corbyn and McDonnell think it might lead us to a socialist paradise!

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:52 pm

Suggest you Tory Outsiders are better off focusing on your absolutely useless, corrupt and altogether incompetent excuse for Government before doing anything else.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:00 pm

Foulthrow wrote:This is what always makes me laugh when you see the neo-cons advocating for Brexit - yes, it might deliver you to some free trade utopia - but, remember, Corbyn and McDonnell think it might lead us to a socialist paradise!

Hi Foulthrow, it was JC himself who was telling the Guradian that he wants to leave the EU. I understand he gave them an interview, though I don't know whether it was exclusive or not.

I'm not sure what your "neo-con" comment is about? Surely you don't think TM is a new-con? (and, hopefully, you aren't mixing me up with any extreme views? That's very far from my style).

We appear to be in an intersting situation - as in "may you live in interesting times." TM wants her withdrawal deal supported in Parliament. The leader of the opposition also wants Brexit. So, what's the last few weeks been all about? At this stage, it appears that anyone not supporting TM's deal is going to get the blame for leaving with a no deal. (For the avoidance of doubt: that's not what I want).

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:08 pm

tiger76 wrote:I'm sure someone with expertise will give details but as i understand EU rules state aid isn't permissible.

Hi t76, yes, that's what we saw following the gov't bailing out of Lloyds and RBS in the financial crisis - a number of "punitative" measures had to be taken by both banks as compensation for the state aid they rec'd.

In Lloyds case they had to dispose of a large number of branches - which they names "TSB." I think they tried to list TSB as an independent bank, but that wasn't successful and they ended up selling to Sabadell (Spanish bank). Many will be familiar with the IT problems TSB (and customers) suffered when TSB/Sabadell (tried to) implement IT IT systems that separated TSB from Lloyds.

I forget all the things that RBS has had to do - or even whether RBS has delivered on all the EU's requirements, yet. (I'm sure someone else can quote these details).

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:40 pm

South West Claret. wrote:Suggest you Tory Outsiders are better off focusing on your absolutely useless, corrupt and altogether incompetent excuse for Government before doing anything else.

At least we know we will be ready for a labour version of a useless, corrupt and incompetent government..

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:06 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:At least we know we will be ready for a labour version of a useless, corrupt and incompetent government..

Ha ha don’t judge others by your own low life standards old boy

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:33 pm

South West Claret. wrote:Suggest you Tory Outsiders are better off focusing on your absolutely useless, corrupt and altogether incompetent excuse for Government before doing anything else.

Tory outsiders are probably Tories because of the state of the Labour party.
Perhaps if you moon bats offered a reasonable alternative, the outsiders wouldn't see the Tories as the best of a bad bunch

Taffy on the wing · Post by **Taffy on the wing** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:41 pm

Damo wrote:Tory outsiders are probably Tories because of the state of the Labour party.
Perhaps if you moon bats offered a reasonable alternative, the outsiders wouldn't see the Tories as the best of a bad bunch

Maybe if the British press wasn't so keen on looking after Rupert Murdoch's interests, and reported on the ******* news (real).. for a change!
Some of you halfwits wouldn't be so keen to vote against your own and the Country's interests.

BurnleyFC · Post by **BurnleyFC** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:03 pm

Fixed that headline for you.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:28 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:Maybe if the British press wasn't so keen on looking after Rupert Murdoch's interests, and reported on the ******* news (real).. for a change!
Some of you halfwits wouldn't be so keen to vote against your own and the Country's interests.

That's exactly the kind of nonsense that turns normal people blue

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:31 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:Maybe if the British press wasn't so keen on looking after Rupert Murdoch's interests, and reported on the ******* news (real).. for a change! Some of you halfwits wouldn't be so keen to vote against your own and the Country's interests.

I think a large number of the electorate will be holding their nose and voting at the next General Election, if the choice remains between the two main party leaders. It is very much a case of the " lesser of two evils " .....

I would never vote for Corbyn .... he lost a confidence vote of his own MP's by 172 to 40 in June 2016, so how the hell do Labour expect to get in Office when 80% + of his own MP's don't think he should be Prime Minister ??

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:48 pm

Do I have this right? The leader of the Party which started the Brexit disaster and is tasked with delivering it is a remainer and the leader of the party which supposedly opposes Brexit and the government is actually a leaver. Maybe they should just swap parties with each other.

Corbyn will be struggling to stay as Labour leader after this declaration as his membership has overwhelmingly mandated him to prevent any Brexit deal (or no deal) that does not deliver positive outcomes for working people.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:53 pm

bfcmik wrote:Do I have this right? The leader of the Party which started the Brexit disaster and is tasked with delivering it is a remainer and the leader of the party which supposedly opposes Brexit and the government is actually a leaver. Maybe they should just swap parties with each other.

Corbyn will be struggling to stay as Labour leader after this declaration as his membership has overwhelmingly mandated him to prevent any Brexit deal (or no deal) that does not deliver positive outcomes for working people.

Have we forgotten that exit is the will of the majority of voters?

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:06 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Have we forgotten that exit is the will of the majority of voters?

I am talking party membership not the general public. Labour did not support Brexit (though Corbyn was notable in his failure to oppose it either) and the party conference last year mandated opposition to ANY Brexit that would not deliver benefit to workers or people with disabilities. Corbyn has declared himself to be a man of his membership but, as happens so often to political Party leaders, has now decided he will set his own agenda rather than listen to his Party.

dermotdermot · Post by **dermotdermot** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:10 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Have we forgotten that exit is the will of the majority of voters?

Well it was, but how do know that it is now without having another referendum.

As for the previous post to that, ‘ Corbyn will be struggling to stay on as leader after this declaration’, please God let this be true.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:16 pm

However we look at it he's stuck between a rock and a hard place (as they say), he's not the one responsible for the mess we're likely to be in.
Personally I hold Cameron responsible, and he couldn't wait to slip out!

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:34 pm

Cameron is a feckless coward. He should have stayed on to organise a Brexit sub-committee made up of his Cabinet and prominent backbenchers. This sub-committee should have thrashed out just what we wanted, and what was actually achievable, with regards to our post-Brexit trading relationship with the EU. Article 50 should only have been triggered once this was sorted and we fully understood what our negotiation position would be. Not rushing at it like a bull at a gate - like May did. 96 days to go and we are still no wiser. What a mess. We have been let down the lot of 'em.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:49 pm

dermotdermot wrote:Well it was, but how do know that it is now without having another referendum.

That’s irrelevant. If that question was asked everyday after every discussion point, we would need a referendum every day. At the time the voting population was asked to vote on that question, the majority said leave. End of, and now it should be the absolute duty of every MP to deliver what that majority voted for. This is not the time for remain MPs to vote the way they want, instead of what the people want.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:17 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I think a large number of the electorate will be holding their nose and voting at the next General Election, if the choice remains between the two main party leaders. It is very much a case of the " lesser of two evils " .....

I would never vote for Corbyn .... he lost a confidence vote of his own MP's by 172 to 40 in June 2016, so how the hell do Labour expect to get in Office when 80% + of his own MP's don't think he should be Prime Minister ??

If the next General Election is 2022 it's a fair bet none of the main party leaders will be in post,including Vince Cable.

Hopefully there is some talented young blood waiting in the wings to deliver some sensible governance.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:05 am

South West Claret. wrote:Ha ha don’t judge others by your own low life standards old boy

I'm not, just looking back at Blair and his sterling work ..

Corrupt, liar and useless..

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:17 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I'm not, just looking back at Blair and his sterling work ..

Corrupt, liar and useless..

Tory Blair was exactly that...a Tory.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:24 am

South West Claret. wrote:Tory Blair was exactly that...a Tory so why should we expect anything less.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:37 am

South West Claret. wrote:Tory Blair was exactly that...a Tory.

And who, pray tell, would you have us vote for ?

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:41 am

It's Labour Party policy - as set during the last conference - to deliver Brexit that safeguards the rights of working people, and keeps us in the customs union. Why is it a shock when Corbyn holds to Labour policy?

And for the remainers on here, I've said before that Labour can't come out in favour of another referendum or to stop Brexit until all the other options have been exhausted. To do so would allow the Tories to hold a general election in which they're the only leave option. They'd spend the entire time banging on about how Labour want to sneakily overturn the democratic wishes of the people - and they'd only need forty percent of the vote to get a majority. A win for the Tories in that situation would mean us leaving, and no second referendum. It would be a disaster. So Labour (and Corbyn) have to adhere to the desire of the people to leave, until the British people have expressed the desire to stay.

As a remainer, my best hope is that May's deal is defeated in the house, and the government have no option but to go back to the people with a new referendum. As someone who would like to see a Labour government, I don't want Corbyn to line the Labour Party up behind the remain camp until all other options have collapsed.

Foulthrow · Post by **Foulthrow** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:45 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Foulthrow, it was JC himself who was telling the Guradian that he wants to leave the EU. I understand he gave them an interview, though I don't know whether it was exclusive or not.

I'm not sure what your "neo-con" comment is about? Surely you don't think TM is a new-con? (and, hopefully, you aren't mixing me up with any extreme views? That's very far from my style).

We appear to be in an intersting situation - as in "may you live in interesting times." TM wants her withdrawal deal supported in Parliament. The leader of the opposition also wants Brexit. So, what's the last few weeks been all about? At this stage, it appears that anyone not supporting TM's deal is going to get the blame for leaving with a no deal. (For the avoidance of doubt: that's not what I want).

No, don’t think May is a neo con, she wants to stay in the EU. I’m referring to some of the more extremist voices in the ERG. Also, my comment wasn’t aimed at any poster on here. I was just trying to point out that the extremists on both sides might not get what they think is going to happen when they advocate their solutions to Brexit.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:46 am

AndrewJB wrote:It's Labour Party policy - as set during the last conference - to deliver Brexit that safeguards the rights of working people, and keeps us in the customs union. Why is it a shock when Corbyn holds to Labour policy?

And for the remainers on here, I've said before that Labour can't come out in favour of another referendum or to stop Brexit until all the other options have been exhausted. To do so would allow the Tories to hold a general election in which they're the only leave option. They'd spend the entire time banging on about how Labour want to sneakily overturn the democratic wishes of the people - and they'd only need forty percent of the vote to get a majority. A win for the Tories in that situation would mean us leaving, and no second referendum. It would be a disaster. So Labour (and Corbyn) have to adhere to the desire of the people to leave, until the British people have expressed the desire to stay.

As a remainer, my best hope is that May's deal is defeated in the house, and the government have no option but to go back to the people with a new referendum. As someone who would like to see a Labour government, I don't want Corbyn to line the Labour Party up behind the remain camp until all other options have collapsed.

There's a nuance to this, realpolitik even, that a lot of remain/Labour/Corbyn voters seem to be missing from what I've been reading on social media. What should have been a fairly uncontroversial comment has been taken to mean there's essentially no opposition to the govt. Reversing the policy without the consent of the people would be an utter disaster, probably more damaging than no deal for different reasons. Labour's red lines (SM, CU, immigration) are slightly different to the Tories' so theoretically there's an avenue to renegotiation, even if a Labour brexit ultimately keeps very close ties with the EU (they'd only be in a position to negotiate with this mandate in the event of an election win on which they campaigned on close ties post-brexit) and the process is more drawn out (the handover of Hong Kong took about fifteen years, for example). It won't please everyone (anyone?), but that's democracy - it never does, and up until the point where Leave can demonstrate there's a clear consensus for what 'leave' actually looks like, any attempts at discrediting and delegitimising variations on a 'leave' which don't match one's own personal vision are utterly unproductive.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:26 pm

OMG now that kettle crisps (Sky news main story) may/might/could be effected by brexit I'm gonna push for the losers vote..

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:11 pm

AndrewJB wrote:It's Labour Party policy - as set during the last conference - to deliver Brexit that safeguards the rights of working people, and keeps us in the customs union. Why is it a shock when Corbyn holds to Labour policy?

And for the remainers on here, I've said before that Labour can't come out in favour of another referendum or to stop Brexit until all the other options have been exhausted. To do so would allow the Tories to hold a general election in which they're the only leave option. They'd spend the entire time banging on about how Labour want to sneakily overturn the democratic wishes of the people - and they'd only need forty percent of the vote to get a majority. A win for the Tories in that situation would mean us leaving, and no second referendum. It would be a disaster. So Labour (and Corbyn) have to adhere to the desire of the people to leave, until the British people have expressed the desire to stay.

As a remainer, my best hope is that May's deal is defeated in the house, and the government have no option but to go back to the people with a new referendum. As someone who would like to see a Labour government, I don't want Corbyn to line the Labour Party up behind the remain camp until all other options have collapsed.

Back to the people? And finally crush democracy in this country?

Just remind me who voted last time? I was under the impression it was people

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:18 pm

Corbyn will likely be ousted by McDonnell if as I expect Labour wins the next election.

What I fail to understand is that many, many Labour voted for Brexit. Burnley is a typical example. The milloonaire metropolitan labourites wity their kids in public schools and driviing around in their Mercs continue to treat these voters with utter contempt.

Last point is the JC is a Bennite and naturally against the money guzzling and crazy spending uncompetitve pro capitalist big business EU. Benn was a man of principle. Very few of them around in Westminster today.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:27 pm

Stayingup wrote:Corbyn will likely be ousted by McDonnell if as I expect Labour wins the next election.

What I fail to understand is that many, many Labour voted for Brexit. Burnley is a typical example. The milloonaire metropolitan labourites wity their kids in public schools and driviing around in their Mercs continue to treat these voters with utter contempt.

Last point is the JC is a Bennite and naturally against the money guzzling and crazy spending uncompetitve pro capitalist big business EU. Benn was a man of principle. Very few of them around in Westminster today.

McDonnell scares me more than Corbyn,he is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Most of Labour's Shadow Cabinet have large majorities in London seats and so aren't at risk of losing their cushy numbers in a snap election.

I'd disagree with Tony Benn's politics but he was a man of principle ala Dennis Skinner.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:42 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:Maybe if the British press wasn't so keen on looking after Rupert Murdoch's interests, and reported on the ******* news (real).. for a change!
Some of you halfwits wouldn't be so keen to vote against your own and the Country's interests.

With the democratisation of media over the last few years, there's nothing stopping anyone setting up media to reflect their views. If the masses are just waiting for this new media, it would have happened. The real problem is that, to the horror of many of the most vocal on the hard left, the people upon whose support they rely are amongst the most conservative groups in the country. Of course, they despise them for that, but they dare not say it - they keep trying to pretend they understand and sympathise with the concerns and mindset of those voters. But they don't. They're just a means to an end. They want the white working class's vote, not their views.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:57 pm

South West Claret. wrote:Tory Blair was exactly that...a Tory.

Yet he won 3 general elections...
It's almost like the people who voted him in didn't know he was a Tory, or is that a hindsight view?
I've seen it bandied about on here a few times by the usual suspects, mainly when they're trying to disassociate themselves from that form of the Labour party and the carnage they helped create.
Always interesting, considering many of those in charge of Labour now were Labour MP's back then too.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:45 am

Spiral wrote:There's a nuance to this, realpolitik even, that a lot of remain/Labour/Corbyn voters seem to be missing from what I've been reading on social media. What should have been a fairly uncontroversial comment has been taken to mean there's essentially no opposition to the govt. Reversing the policy without the consent of the people would be an utter disaster, probably more damaging than no deal for different reasons. Labour's red lines (SM, CU, immigration) are slightly different to the Tories' so theoretically there's an avenue to renegotiation, even if a Labour brexit ultimately keeps very close ties with the EU (they'd only be in a position to negotiate with this mandate in the event of an election win on which they campaigned on close ties post-brexit) and the process is more drawn out (the handover of Hong Kong took about fifteen years, for example). It won't please everyone (anyone?), but that's democracy - it never does, and up until the point where Leave can demonstrate there's a clear consensus for what 'leave' actually looks like, any attempts at discrediting and delegitimising variations on a 'leave' which don't match one's own personal vision are utterly unproductive.

Brexit is the most divisive issue I've ever seen in the UK, insofar as it's divided people and communities beyond divisions of class or political persuasion. It'll make for a crap Christmas in a lot of houses this year. So every political party should be united behind the fact this is a Tory created problem (May's refusal to make the negotiations cross-party from the UK end were a huge mistake), and the Tory Party has to own it. Thankfully parliament have the last say on the deal (does anyone remember May trying to deny parliament a say?), so her bad deal can be voted down - and I think probably will be. This is why I think Labour have remained "on the fence" - unwilling to alienate their leave supporting voters. The clock is ticking down (perhaps another of May's miscalculations), and when the Tory Party position becomes more clear, then we'll see a more defined opposition from Labour. To my mind it's entirely sensible for Labour to sit back and react to what the government do, and constantly remind the public, this is what the Tories have given us. The best result for Labour is that May calls a second referendum, and remain wins by a large margin. This might unite the Tories - but only in their efforts to cling to power. Labour can then remind everyone of the nearly three years of chaos the Tories caused the country - just as a "Cameron lark"

Labour have to hold their nerve, because this is a Tory induced crisis.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:25 am

It was in the Labour parties election to uphold Brexit. Tory partues as well. Therefore 80 something % of the voters backed it
So whats all the fuss? JC is sticking to his word. A rare occurence with these feckless MP''s we have now.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:28 am

AndrewJB wrote:Brexit is the most divisive issue I've ever seen in the UK, insofar as it's divided people and communities beyond divisions of class or political persuasion. It'll make for a crap Christmas in a lot of houses this year. So every political party should be united behind the fact this is a Tory created problem (May's refusal to make the negotiations cross-party from the UK end were a huge mistake), and the Tory Party has to own it. Thankfully parliament have the last say on the deal (does anyone remember May trying to deny parliament a say?), so her bad deal can be voted down - and I think probably will be. This is why I think Labour have remained "on the fence" - unwilling to alienate their leave supporting voters. The clock is ticking down (perhaps another of May's miscalculations), and when the Tory Party position becomes more clear, then we'll see a more defined opposition from Labour. To my mind it's entirely sensible for Labour to sit back and react to what the government do, and constantly remind the public, this is what the Tories have given us. The best result for Labour is that May calls a second referendum, and remain wins by a large margin. This might unite the Tories - but only in their efforts to cling to power. Labour can then remind everyone of the nearly three years of chaos the Tories caused the country - just as a "Cameron lark"

Labour have to hold their nerve, because this is a Tory induced crisis.

A crap Chriatmas caused by the Tories and Brexit. No foundation for that ridiculous comment at all
You really ought to grow up you. You will maybe when you leave school and get a job.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:31 am

tiger76 wrote:McDonnell scares me more than Corbyn,he is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Most of Labour's Shadow Cabinet have large majorities in London seats and so aren't at risk of losing their cushy numbers in a snap election.

I'd disagree with Tony Benn's politics but he was a man of principle ala Dennis Skinner.

Absolutely right about Benn. Agree with him or not. A principled intelligent man of integrity. Can you see many around like that now?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:56 am

It's Christmas day, politics suspended.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:02 am

Stayingup wrote:A crap Chriatmas caused by the Tories and Brexit. No foundation for that ridiculous comment at all
You really ought to grow up you. You will maybe when you leave school and get a job.

Hmmm, I'm probably older than you.

It's easy to quote someone without context, and then suggest there's no foundation for their argument. I had been talking about how divided the country has become over brexit - and how this might cause arguments as families come together over the Christmas holidays. It has with mine.

But the government is so bad even your twist on my post works. Eight years of severe austerity, wages that have remained lower than ten years ago while prices have risen, busted housing market, creaking NHS and education - all of this supposedly to fix our deficit problem, but then all the savings were handed out in tax breaks to the rich. To top it all off they then made us divided through a stupid self serving referendum that nobody wanted, and are now spending over two billion planning on a no deal brexit. That's utter bellendry, when they could actually end rough sleeping by spending that another way.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... sness-rise" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:16 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Yet he won 3 general elections...
It's almost like the people who voted him in didn't know he was a Tory, or is that a hindsight view?
I've seen it bandied about on here a few times by the usual suspects, mainly when they're trying to disassociate themselves from that form of the Labour party and the carnage they helped create.
Always interesting, considering many of those in charge of Labour now were Labour MP's back then too.

I remember reading that Blair tried to get Corbyn deselected at one point (I think it was over the Iraq War), but regardless, though they were Labour MPs, they were all sidelined from power. Even under Miliband, during the vote that brought us the Windrush Crisis, Labour abstained from the vote that changed the law (enabling the government to deport Windrush people who hadn't become UK citizens), except for current leading members of the opposition who voted against it. There's no question that Labour is now a very different beast than it was - and this is due to the membership growing and forcing a change in leadership.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:48 pm

AndrewJB wrote: ...how this might cause arguments as families come together over the Christmas holidays. It has with mine.

Some might surmise that's because you might be behaving with your family the same way you do on here. There are equally strong views on both sides of the Brexit debate in my family and we're not falling out about it.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:58 pm

thatdberight wrote:Some might surmise that's because you might be behaving with your family the same way you do on here. There are equally strong views on both sides of the Brexit debate in my family and we're not falling out about it.

Ha! I’m a neutral. My inlaws argue with their grandchildren. If you find me objectionable on here then I don’t know what you’d make of them.