Our Forwards

[Jakubs Tash]

11th January 2014 Ashley Barnes makes his debut v Yeovil away. He replaces Danny Ings & joins Sam Vokes up front.

26th December 2018 Ashley Barnes & Sam Vokes are named as our two strikers in a Premier League game v Everton.

So, in 5 years, forwards have come and gone but we haven't had any who could budge these two from the team. 3.5 of the 5 years in the Premier League with PL money (4.5 years inc parachute payments).

The argument that we don't make many chances for our forwards doesn't really wash as the forwards need to be offering more - better quality - to their team mates. For the level that we are at we need our forwards to bring more to our team.

Are they moving the defenders around? Are they giving their opponent a rough afternoon? Is the defender unsure whether they're going to run in behind them or drop deep? Is the defender worried that they might quickly turn him and play in a team mate? I'm afraid our current crop of forwards dont have the required quality to do much/any of these.

Upgrades were really needed last year....they are definitely required now.

[randomclaret2]

The one area of a team that requires the most money spending on to seriously upgrade is the one area that the club have been unable or unwilling to significantly improve

[MACCA]

Was saying the same thing yesterday.

Our style hasn't evolved , soon as SV signed a new 3 year deal, you knew exactly what we were planning for in terms of league we are playing in, and style of play.

SD doesn't look too good at bringing in forwards in, way too many flops for it to just be unlucky IMO

[Burnley Ace]

We need a £30m striker if we want to compete.

[criminalclaret]

To be an out and out Premier League striker, you are commanding 10/15+ goals a season, and commanding a high price and salary that goes with it.

I do think that Barnes and Vokes have evolved in to Premier League standard for the "best of the rest" clubs. They're not outstanding but not terrible either. Vokes header against Liverpool, Barnes has struck some peaches in his time.

Wood and Vydra rely on service to score goals akin to what they has in the Championship. And this is a big, big step up from that.

In summary, I don't think it's the forwards fault for not scoring . I think it comes down to poor service on the floor from the midfield that reduces their capacity to score goals.

Chris Wood's confidence is shot to sh!t at the moment however but that's a different story.

[MACCA]

The one area of a team that requires the most money spending on to seriously upgrade is the one area that the club have been unable or unwilling to significantly improve

26m worth on the bench yesterday

Sordell, Vossen, Juke, Hennings, Long, Walters, Wells to name just a few of the absolute flops he has wasted money on
40m worth of forwards there, ( excluding wages ) with probably not a dozen goals between them...
Would you trust the bloke with another 40m?

We have wasted around 15m on Walters and Wells alone, so play what a dozen games at best?

Thank our lucky stars McParland (sp) were here to our 2 key signings in.

[Devils_Advocate]

Couldn't agree more and my biggest criticism of Dyche even in his most successful periods has been his lack of ability to improve our attack.

I posted something similar recently that whist the club including the players have moved so much forward in every respect under Dyche it is criminal that Vokes who was our second best striker when Dyche joined has been our #1 striker this season with the player Dyche signed as backup his main competition

Also this idea that the midfield create chances and strikers score them is rubbish. As you point out strikers get chances through their movement, speed, skill and all round attacking play and Vokes offers absolutely nothing unless the ball is put on his head in the perfect position

Wood has been awful this season but despite him not looking like he'd score in a brothel when he has started with Barnes the team has looked a lot more creative and looked a much more attacking threat. Peoples responses on here are to stick Vokes in as he will score more than Wood but as soon as Vokes is back in we just arent good enough up top to trouble a defense and create chances

[CombatClaret]

Grey offered a few of the things OP mentions. No world beater but definitely not a flop, with him gone and Wood in we were 3 quite similar forwards

[jrgbfc]

The fact that Barnes and Vokes are still our 2 main strikers after 4 or 5 years of T.V money is almost criminal.

[lifelongclaret]

I agree will Macca, I’m unsure if I would allow Sean Dyche to spend big, he wasted to much money over the years on players who have flopped, I’m gutted it’s going pear shaped for the gaffer, but unfortunately I cannot see a happy outcome, if he leave now , he will be held aloft as the man who made us dream, any longer and it becomes a nightmare

[clitheroeclaret2]

To be an out and out Premier League striker, you are commanding 10/15+ goals a season, and commanding a high price and salary that goes with it.

I do think that Barnes and Vokes have evolved in to Premier League standard for the "best of the rest" clubs. They're not outstanding but not terrible either. Vokes header against Liverpool, Barnes has struck some peaches in his time.

Wood and Vydra rely on service to score goals akin to what they has in the Championship. And this is a big, big step up from that.

In summary, I don't think it's the forwards fault for not scoring . I think it comes down to poor service on the floor from the midfield that reduces their capacity to score goals.

Chris Wood's confidence is shot to sh!t at the moment however but that's a different story.

Agree with lots of that. Would love to see a different style of football ,on the deck incorporating Wood/Vydra Unfortunately our main creative players, arguably or only creative players, Defour, Brady, up to late saturday Gudmundsson haven't been available

[criminalclaret]

Also this idea that the midfield create chances and strikers score them is rubbish.

That's literally half of the reason for a midfield.

I'm not saying our forwards exude quality, I agree that much. But I think we could sign an out and out goal established PL striker should would struggle in this squad because our midfields just don't get the ball into goal scoring positions.

Our main tactic is to cross a ball onto Wood/Vokes head and allow enough defencive confusion for someone to follow up on. That's generally our one and only plan for scoring goals which gets found out very easily against well drilled sides

[randomclaret2]

The £40 million you mention Macca has gone on 9 strikers. Thats the problem.A steady stream of Championship strikers. £40 million buys one or two Premier League quality strikers or 9 from the Championship.

[warksclaret]

This is a dreadful club to play for as a striker particularly with Brady, and Lennon out and JBG out until yesterday. Punting it in hopefully from all over the pitch for a possible flick on. Played into Evertons hands yesterday. No running wide, no getting it to the by line, no running in to the box. We are where we deserve to be -with 12 points. Most of these from set pieces
Just seen Jays two goals yesterday.WOW !!! That's 12 for the season

[jrgbfc]

The £40 million you mention Macca has gone on 9 strikers. Thats the problem.A steady stream of Championship strikers. £40 million buys one or two Premier League quality strikers or 9 from the Championship.

That's exactly the point. We'd have been better signing 1 or 2 strikers who actually improved us rather than a procession of Championship level strikers who are no better than what we already had. Walters and Nahki Wells are probably on about 40 grand a week between them, that could have gone towards a striker who actually improved us.

[Devils_Advocate]

This is a dreadful club to play for as a striker particularly with Brady, and Lennon out and JBG out until yesterday. Punting it in hopefully from all over the pitch for a possible flick on. Played into Evertons hands yesterday. No running wide, no getting it to the by line, no running in to the box. We are where we deserve to be -with 12 points. Most of these from set pieces
Just seen Jays two goals yesterday.WOW !!! That's 12 for the season

Likewise its a dreadful club to play as a creative midfield player having lumps like Vokes, Barnes and Wood to work with. There was a moment in the game yesterday where Cork won the ball in Evertons last third and skipped past a man and there was absolutely no movement from Barnes and Vokes and no ball he could play to them. He turned and passed it backwards and we eventually lumped it in the box

The idea that our strikers are the victims of having to just feed off scraps and long punts is rubbish as they themselves are a big part of the route cause of the problem

[beddie]

Wells and Vydra were panick buys imo. We really need to get this position sorted and pay proper money.

[Colburn_Claret]

I've mentioned many times over the last 6 months about the lack of movement from our strikers and wide men. Far too static, far too easy to mark.
It is possible to work the player who is marking you, without ever getting the ball. All it takes is nous.

Those first years in the Prem, our running stats were top of the league. I haven't seen any lately, but I would bet my last quid we are bottom.

We used to be the team that pressed from the front, whilst everyone else were happy to pull everyone back when they lost the ball. Now everybody presses us and we can't handle it. You need quality, speed and strength, and we are lacking all over the pitch.

[criminalclaret]

I think we need to take yesterday's performance out of this because mostly everyone had a terrible game .

I don't think Detour stands on the halfway line thinking "no point me pushing a nice 20 yarder to Barnes coz he won't get it" in exactly the same way that I don't think Barnes says " I can't be arsed with that pass today"..

I agree that they are not the greatest forwards in the "best of the rest" PL, and I've never denied that.

But I'm saying that without a creative, attacking midfield no striker however good they are is gonna take a ball on the halfway line and trouble the defense on his own.

We just don't have the quality to startle the defense far enough unless it's set piece where we use our muscle. It's the quality of our attack ( both combination of more our midfield than our forwards) that has let us down this season.

[bobinho]

You’d think that when we play with Vokes and wood together, the plan would be to get the ball out wide and whip some crosses in.... we don’t. Our first thought is always to defend, so it’s no surprise there is a lack of attacking intent.

We pass it along the back four until it ends up at tarks feet who then launches it diagonally for their defenders to mop up.

When we DO actually have some possession around the box, we think we are arsenal and try to walk it into the net.

Just wish SOMEONE would have a go.

[Spijed]

I agree will Macca, I’m unsure if I would allow Sean Dyche to spend big, he wasted to much money over the years on players who have flopped

Probably the same for every manager, including everyone in the Premier league.

[Top Claret]

Got to say Barnes was very poor yesterday. I watched him 1st half and he never once showed for Taylor, who kept looking to feed him in down the channels. Hendrick another who was no better he was motionless

[bobinho]

Wells and Vydra were panick buys imo. We really need to get this position sorted and pay proper money.

Jury’s out for me. Not seen enough of either of them to make a decision one way or tother.

Probably never will now...

[snapcrackleandpop]

I don’t think Wells & Vydra would be any worse than Vokes & Barnes at least they would give you movement and pace unlike Vokes

[KlyBfc]

Agree with those above we certainly haven’t progressed and you could argue (with a strong case) that we’ve actually regressed upfront since Dyche took over (Ings and Austin are better than anything we currently have, I know we couldn’t keep them at the time but third season in a row in the prem now?)

I’ve also long held the view about Barnes and his generally poor movement. He runs straight lines, rarely runs out and back across the front of his man and often his movement is secondary to the pass which is played, that being said he’s still looked out most consistent forward this season. He absolutely carries the nuisance value and will to win which makes him effective in some games (usually against the better footballing defences which he can rough up) and in a 2 man attack when he is one on one vs opponents (and when his partner pulls the defence around a bit) he is much more effective (which why he looks better with wood than Vokes IMO).

Vokes is a good go to man when we are lumping crosses in or when he’s got a man running and playing off his hold up play.
Wood is out of form, but contrary to what some others believe IMO he runs the channels better, his attacking movement is better, however his hold up play has been inconsistent this season.

Vydra I’m not and wasn’t convinced by when he signed but i certainly haven’t seen enough to really judge.

We have a bunch of very honest good / strong forward but not one of them can produce a moment of magic on their own or relieve the pressure by carrying the ball past opponents

[Vegas Claret]

mentioned it on another thread, for the last 2-3 years or so Dyche constantly (every other week) says "we know we need to improve in the top 3rd" - we've got worse as time has gone on not better and for that reason alone Dyche needs to go

[Vegas Claret]

We have a bunch of very honest good / strong forward but not one of them can produce a moment of magic on their own or relieve the pressure by carrying the ball past opponents

Barnes has provided plenty of those moments, but what does anyone expect him to do when balls come down with snow on them when he's being marked by Zouma, Keane or Mina ? Seriously ??!!!

[KlyBfc]

vegas which moments of magic / guile are those? Spurs away few years back, WBA away last season but these strikes aren’t what I’m really getting at as our front line deficiencies . He doesn’t beat a man by running with the ball to relieve pressure, create chances, score goals it’s not his strength. He might bundle through l, knock it a few yards and sprint, but he’s certainly not a player (neither are our other options) that’s comfortable at going past players with the ball or passing on the move at speed, which is clearly an element of our attack / counter attack that we are missing.

[ceborame]

The time to have gone for a quality, break our transfer record striker, was last summer when we could boast a 7th place finish and offer European football. That attraction has now gone and no quality striker will be attracted to playing for us.

The best we can hope for is turning over gem in the lower leagues

[Bigvince]

We need a £30m striker if we want to compete.

Unfortunately a £30 million striker would want wages way in excess of our budget!

[Elizabeth]

What a lovely thread, so many well thought out points.

I hope the new lad with the blonde hair who did so well last year in the lower league gets the chance to find room upfield to score some goals.

Why does our manager have his favourites?

[Jakubs Tash]

The manager has spoken many times this season about having more quality in the final third. This is very difficult to improve if your players don't have the necessary quality for this level.

The quality in the forward line should gradually have improved over the 5 year period but, instead, we have the same two forwards as we had in the 2nd half of the 13/14 promotion side.

[Silkyskills1]

I've been told on numerous occasions that our forwards, statistically, whatever that means,are as good as any outside the top six. To be starting currently with the same two that were together when we were still in the Championship,virtually penniless, is a poor reflection of the manager's transfer dealings in that department.

[Papabendi]

According to some the forwards aren’t a big issue. I say they are a massive issue.

What would we give for an Ings or an Austin.

[Jakubclaret]

We need a £30m striker if we want to compete.

2 players for that IF canny, 1 servicing & 1 converting, moot point with the door wide open, cash I think should be spent there initially. At the rate we are conceding 1 if not 2 of world class strikers wouldn’t bag enough. With del piero & batistuta in their prime firing wouldn’t be enough you’d also have to add nedved threading through, the foundation starts from the back to progress anyhow.

[Colburn_Claret]

Just wish SOMEONE would have a go.

It's the fear factor.
Bardsley seems quite happy to have a dig from 30yds, the rest of them want it in the 6yd box.
Lowton has scored from distance. JBG has had some good efforts in the past as has Brady, but the worse we play, the less willing the players are to take a chance.
It makes you wonder if they're under orders.

[bf2k]

2 players for that IF canny, 1 servicing & 1 converting, moot point with the door wide open, cash I think should be spent there initially. At the rate we are conceding 1 if not 2 of world class strikers wouldn’t bag enough. With del piero & batistuta in their prime firing wouldn’t be enough you’d also have to add nedved threading through, the foundation starts from the back to progress anyhow.

The rate of conceding could also be put down to our poor ball retention and work rate off the ball. Last season we were compact, 2 banks of 4 and hunted in packs. This season we leave pockets of space in vital areas so poor ball retention will then kill you.

Better players in the final 3rd would provide done relief to the constant defending we're being asked to do.

However, unless we shop in the European market (or world market for that matter) we won't get any better than we've got because we won't pay the transfer fees. I also don't see what difference Rodriguez would have made to this team. I think, like Wood, he's found his level now.

[Jakubclaret]

The rate of conceding could also be put down to our poor ball retention and work rate off the ball. Last season we were compact, 2 banks of 4 and hunted in packs. This season we leave pockets of space in vital areas so poor ball retention will then kill you.

Better players in the final 3rd would provide done relief to the constant defending we're being asked to do.

However, unless we shop in the European market (or world market for that matter) we won't get any better than we've got because we won't pay the transfer fees. I also don't see what difference Rodriguez would have made to this team. I think, like Wood, he's found his level now.

True, I was alluding to outscoring the opposition which is a tall order when shipping 3 or more, I take on the point about soaking it up more “poor ball retention” instead of it pinging back, regarding Rodriguez or what is contribution could have been is hypothetical really as it never materialised & probably 1 of many factors within itself why things are becoming sh*tshaped.

[Murger]

Why would any decent striker want to join us? Unless you're a lump, you've no chance.

[jojomk1]

The fact that Barnes and Vokes are still our 2 main strikers after 4 or 5 years of T.V money is almost criminal.

And they will be for the next two seasons after this (given their new contracts) - with Wood and Vydra still on the bench for all that time as well

[Stayingup]

11th January 2014 Ashley Barnes makes his debut v Yeovil away. He replaces Danny Ings & joins Sam Vokes up front.

26th December 2018 Ashley Barnes & Sam Vokes are named as our two strikers in a Premier League game v Everton.

So, in 5 years, forwards have come and gone but we haven't had any who could budge these two from the team. 3.5 of the 5 years in the Premier League with PL money (4.5 years inc parachute payments).

The argument that we don't make many chances for our forwards doesn't really wash as the forwards need to be offering more - better quality - to their team mates. For the level that we are at we need our forwards to bring more to our team.

Are they moving the defenders around? Are they giving their opponent a rough afternoon? Is the defender unsure whether they're going to run in behind them or drop deep? Is the defender worried that they might quickly turn him and play in a team mate? I'm afraid our current crop of forwards dont have the required quality to do much/any of these.

Upgrades were really needed last year....they are definitely required now.

Add that we have spent circa £30 million in the interim and the conclusion is shocking recruitment

[boatshed bill]

According to some the forwards aren’t a big issue. I say they are a massive issue.

What would we give for an Ings or an Austin.

Apparently Southampton can buy Ings for £8m!