To me it seems the fans need a scapegoat. And the obvious and easiest one to blame is Hart. But tere is no way hart has been anywhere near as bad as some are making out.

However, goals against is a major concern and clearly something is not right.

I saw the game live and thought he was at fault for the first yesterday. Not so sure now having seen it back.

His positioning for the free kick is poor.

Penalty is a free hit so cant blame him there (although perhaps skightly odd he dived to his weaker side)

The fourth was a very clean strike and at pace but its not the first goal thats gone in like that in that corner.

The fith the game was over and it was one he has saved in the past but cant blame him.

He wasnt great yesterday. And the goals against is worrying. Despite some good performances from Hart you cant 41 in 19 games in and not be under scrutiny.

That said lets not forget Heaton let a similar rate in for Bristol at a lower level.

In Harts defence (no pun intended) its pretty clear he isnt getting what Pope was last season and Heaton was those prior - protection.

The defence arent putting their bodies on the line. We dont have arfield, marney and boyd running their ******** off as an absolute minimum. We dont have players getting in the faces of the opposition. Teams arent scared of going toe to toe with us or coming to Turf Moor.

Weve made it easy for them to come here. It used to be the last fixture teams wanted. Its now become the first fixture teams want. We are spineless at times and I never thought id say that about a Dyche team. And thats why its essential Bardsley plays right now.

We can analyse those goals again and Hart gets off scot free - even the experts and commentators arent blaming him and they loved hanging him out to dry in recent times.

First goal - Taylor **** poor control to give them a corner which eventually leads to a free header with nobody picking him up.

Second goal - a shockingly poor tackle from Lowton. I still dont know what he was thinking.

Third goal - penalty. One of them. Good spot from the ref.

Fourth goal - wtf was mees overhead clearence and then not one player stands up and closes him down. Just invited to shoot.

Fifth goal - we just let them walk through again. Bernard did this countless timea earlier.

Hart wasnt blameless. And perhaps many of the organisational issues are his biggest failing. But ive said it before. As bad as the goals against is, the biggest problems lie in front of hart.

I'll be glad when Hart leaves so I don't have to listen to the new goalkeeping experts and the conjecture that surrounds Hart. Heard a new one yesterday, he's on £140k a week that's upset the rest of the team. As for the first goal, it was a good cross which was admired by 3 defenders / midfielders. Can't blame him for not coming for it, see too many keepers coming for balls that they aren't going to win, see the Fulham goal yesterday and our goal v Brighton.

The knives have been out for Hart since the day he signed so any slightest error will be over analysed.

Some said yesterday if Heaton is sold and Pope is on bench he's packing in going! What a load of shite.

I think Ben mee is now the weak link in defence...though shame about the penalty he appears to be going backwards now.. Much prefer Kevin Long who gets better. For all joes efforts I think joe harts played his Last league game...unfortunately. and he won't be hung out to dry against his former club West Ham is my guess.

Such a coincidence the same defence are suddenly shipping goals for fun since his arrival ....

NL Claret wrote:I'll be glad when Hart leaves so I don't have to listen to the new goalkeeping experts and the conjecture that surrounds Hart. Heard a new one yesterday, he's on £140k a week that's upset the rest of the team. As for the first goal, it was a good cross which was admired by 3 defenders / midfielders. Can't blame him for not coming for it, see too many keepers coming for balls that they aren't going to win, see the Fulham goal yesterday and our goal v Brighton.

The knives have been out for Hart since the day he signed so any slightest error will be over analysed.

Some said yesterday if Heaton is sold and Pope is on bench he's packing in going! What a load of shite.

If (and it is a huge IF) Joe Hart is on £140k a week something odd has happened .... do you honestly think that our top wage jumped by 4 times the previous seasons top wage......
I think someone is pulling your ..... NL m8

Unfortunately he’s signed a long contract, there is no chance he will leave, he’s a busted flush.. no resale value and he’s stealing a wage

Bosscat wrote:If (and it is a huge IF) Joe Hart is on £140k a week something odd has happened .... do you honestly think that our top wage jumped by 4 times the previous seasons top wage......
I think someone is pulling your ..... NL m8

Seriously, someone genuinely told me this yesterday. Let's just say my eyes rolled, when questioned the bloke said City were paying him £100k per week. It's all a bit bizarre, it's gone from he doesn't communicate with his defenders, he doesn't shout like Tom, can't organise the back 4, defenders have no confidence in him to he's on £140k a week just to suit their agenda. It's got very boring.

I said on another thread that failure has been following Hart since the day Guardiola arrived at City.

I also don’t think it’s a coinicidence that he didn’t move to one of the bigger sides in the Prem when City decided to offload him, particularly when you think about the keeper crisis’ at some of the bigger clubs.

Torino, West Ham and Burnley as a career path would suggest there are a lot of doubts about him within the highs end of the football business.

If you keep getting burgled you will eventually need to change the locks, even if you previously went a long time without a previous theft

It's clear that we're more vulnerable at the back this season but the "Boyd, Marney, Arfield*"line that keeps getting trotted out. We finished 7th last year, Arfield played 15 games, Marney didn't play a league game and Boyd wasn't even a Burnley player.

Whatever the reason for the change, those three have very little to do with it.

*not forgetting Joey Barton, who is often mentions in similar posts.

agreenwood wrote:I said on another thread that failure has been following Hart since the day Guardiola arrived at City.

I also don’t think it’s a coinicidence that he didn’t move to one of the bigger sides in the Prem when City decided to offload him, particularly when you think about the keeper crisis’ at some of the bigger clubs.

Torino, West Ham and Burnley as a career path would suggest there are a lot of doubts about him within the highs end of the football business.

You could say there are doubts from the top 6 about all English keepers. I think Lee Grant is the only English keeper in a squad of a top 6 club.

Hart is the best keeper burnley have ever had

It isn't his fault, it's many things, but he is part of the problem. Even when Heats was on form there were times I bemoaned his command of the box. Yet he's light years ahead of Hart.
We need Nick Pope back in goal. It won't solve all the problems, but it will help.

NL Claret wrote:Seriously, someone genuinely told me this yesterday. Let's just say my eyes rolled, when questioned the bloke said City were paying him £100k per week. It's all a bit bizarre, it's gone from he doesn't communicate with his defenders, he doesn't shout like Tom, can't organise the back 4, defenders have no confidence in him to he's on £140k a week just to suit their agenda. It's got very boring.

Rubbish. No way are we paying him more than what he eas on at City. Arent they making up his wage and theres a paycut due in summer?

That was the stiry in August anyway.

If he really is on almost 3x our other big players then thats idiotic and our whole management team from top to bottom should be potted as soon as possible. We have made lot about being unabke to sign players because of wages and we push out the boat for a goalkeeper?????? Surely that in itself says this is wrong

But back to the thread discussion...

We were duscussing coming off the ground yesterday and think its got to be a change as we have tried a whole bunch of other changes at the back and its thr only constant. Maybe that is simple a coincidence but we need to try something (despite the gavt that i think he has mostly been a good acquisition and played well).

BabylonClaret wrote:Rubbish. No way are we paying him more than what he eas on at City. Arent they making up his wage and theres a paycut due in summer?

That was the stiry in August anyway.

If he really is on almost 3x our other big players then thats idiotic and our whole management team from top to bottom should be potted as soon as possible. We have made lot about being unabke to sign players because of wages and we push out the boat for a goalkeeper?????? Surely that in itself says this is wrong

Correct it's absolute BS , I can't believe anyone would think a Burnley player is getting paid £140k let alone try and convince someone they are on £140k. This is the level of BS and conjecture about Hart. He could keep a clean sheet whilst saving 10 penalties and catching crosses on the penalty spot yet some would still say he's no good and is cause of all the problems.

Ridiculous making Hart a scape goat for that pias poor defending, that cost the 1st goal. It's like blaming Taylor who lost control of the ball to concede the corner, that led to it.

Rank poor defending. Tarks was marking thin air, with Gibson and Mee day dreaming

We've been spoilt recently with having excellent goalkeeper's in Heaton and Pope, I don't think the defence trusts Hart as he won't leave his line.
I genuinely think pope would of come out for the first goal and claimed the cross. It's not the first goal I've thought that this year.

After the free kick for the 2nd Dyche and Woan were having what seemed to be words with Mercer who was sat on the bench. Then Mercer was straight over to Hart on the half time whistle, Joe clearly has issues to his left hand side and with coming out for the ball...the sooner Nick is back in there the better.

I agree with CFC he is the scapegoat, so imagine this scenario Hart is dropped on Sunday and Heaton plays and we get dicked 3 - 0 because Anderson & Hernandez will take the **** if we defend like yesterday, what then do we start screaming for Pope.
The problem is much much deeper than Joe Hart.

theroyaldyche wrote:Hart is the best keeper burnley have ever had

How many goals has he let in so far this season?

dermotdermot wrote:How many goals has he let in so far this season?

How many were his direct fault?

How many times has the poor play by the outfield players been the cause of prem quality players gettin a shot off?

Wev faced the most shots this season by a country mile. Is he the cause of these increased shots?

If it wasnt for hart wed have conceded 5 every game. Heaton and pope are no better than hart. Fact

We can all agree that Hart has had a fairly decent season and that his performances do not reflect the amount of goals conceded; he's given away very few if any blatant goals this season; all maybes and possibly should have done better type comments but nothing tragic.
I think the matter is more about the way Heats, our captain, has been treated really by Dyche and not being given his chance to get the shirt back. After all the success we've had over the years, Heats getting regular England call ups and working hard to be back this season, he should have been 1st choice based on loyalty and what he has done for us for all these years, especially after Pope's serious injury (Dyche has professed for years and years about players who graft and play a part in our success even in difficult times to keep the shirt); the number 1 shirt was his to lose and if he'd started badly and didnt look up to it after his injury then bring Hart off the bench and give him his chance.
I think the players have lost a bit of respect for the manager's decisions this year and, as we have been constantly discussing this season, the many strange selections (Vydra, Lowts being dropped and changed with Bards every now & then; constant striker pairings; 451, 442, 541; midfield confusion and lack of creativity). It has all got a bit confusing; add to the fact Defour's injury completely rocked the boat after last year's 451 formation, and we're where we're at.

I’d wager sides are told to get plenty of shots in on Hart.

Until Hart is dropped nobody can say he is not the problem.

That is a fact.

Bordeauxclaret wrote:I’d wager sides are told to get plenty of shots in on Hart.

Isn’t that the objective of every team in every game ... get as many shots as you can on goal?

I said earlier in the season he wasn't the problem but watched him more closely since an I believe he's a massive problem.
Shot stopping he's been brilliant but don't think he's made any saves the other two wouldn't of.
His problem is crosses he's static on his goal line an he doesn't communicate, I noticed in the Brighton game a ball bounced slowly about three yards to the left of his goal an Tarkowski had let it go back to him an he just stayed on his line an let it go out for a corner an Tarkowski turned to the other players an flicked his head an eyes towards Hart in a motion to say what's he doing that to me was a clear sign of no talking or confidence.
Pope an Heaton offer more but Pope to me is the one we need in ASAP

kaptin1 wrote:Isn’t that the objective of every team in every game ... get as many shots as you can on goal?

No. The objective is to score.

You have more chance of scoring against certain keepers.

kaptin1 wrote:Isn’t that the objective of every team in every game ... get as many shots as you can on goal?

To an extent. But do you think teams are instructed to take pot shots at the likes of De Gea, Ederson etc? I wouldn't have thought so because they have no glaring weaknesses. Hart does.

It was plainly obvious to me the back four do not trust or feel confident with Hart in goal plus the fact Heaton is now back fit and not been given a chance after all the goals we are leaking is scandalous . I hope Sean has a plan of now letting Heaton go and putting Pope back in the nets otherwise we are going down as there is no chemistry or what ever you want to call it between the Goalkeeper and defenders .

These have been my personal thoughts for some time but like everyone it is just a personal opinion but I have had it on good authority the feel good factor has gone and Heaton unfortunately is on is way . I know we can't keep 3 very good keepers happy and when Pope is back he would be my number 1 choice even above Heaton so let's hope he brings the feel good factor back with him .

If we go down we will lose Pope, Heaton & probably Hart as well

snapcrackleandpop wrote:If we go down we will lose Pope, Heaton & probably Hart as well

Where’s Hart going? He was part of a poor Torino side in 16-17, a poor West Ham side last season and a poor Burnley side this season.

Who is looking at that record and thinking he’ll be a good signing for a top flight side? He’s been available for transfer for 3 seasons. We were the only side seemingly willing to take him on permanently.

His next stop as a first choice keeper is most likely the Championship. If he stays in the Prem he’s most likely to do so as a back-up. Reputations can’t last forever.

For me Hart is not the main problem, the tactics are. The way we are playing is setting up to put ourselves under pressure.

I thought Joe had a poor game, by his standards, but the command of the defence should be a non-issue when you have the captain as a CB. Mee should be the commanding voice in that defence, he should be all over-it and for some reason he seems not to be interested. As soon as we go one down, his head drops and his body-language tells us all we need to know. I have a feeling that Bardsley did more for team spirit than Mee has done all season.

Honestly, at this time there are a lot of problems and I don't think a keeper coming for catches is going to solve those problems.

Bordeauxclaret wrote:No. The objective is to score.

You have more chance of scoring against certain keepers.

Of course you do, but that doesn’t mean you choose to shoot less against the other ones.

It's a funny thing, signing such a previously good player (75 caps, title winner etc) that is actually at his peak age, for a club like ours. I said to my dad when he signed that I didn't think it'd work, he argued it would like Wright and, to a lesser extent, Cole did in varying divisions below when they were both past it for the top division.

Funny thing is, I couldn't quite put my finger on why I didn't think it'd work. It just didn't seem like the right fit. I wasn't surprised he went to West Ham, I wouldn't have been surprised had he gone to Wolves, Fulham or Newcastle either. I still can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't work.

I'm fairly sure that if you asked any Burnley fan this time last year if they'd swap Heaton or Pope for Hart you'd get a resounding '**** off', though.

Burnleymik,how can you think a keeper coming for crisses wouldnt help

Hart is one of the the problem players in my view and as I said on another thread the sooner Heaton is back and given a run the better.

Of course a keeper coming for catches may not solve all of our problems.
However, it will solve some very important ones. If your keeper is not commanding the area in a team like Burnley then more often than not (a lot more often actually) then the ball is ending back up with the opposition or in the back of the net.
Pope is 6 foot 4 or 5 isn’t he. That means he is jumping to what ? 7 foot ? Nobody is beating him in the air and if he plays like last year he is catching the vast majority of crosses he comes far.
It’s massive having a keeper like Pope. How anybody cannot see this is beyond me....what were you all watching last year ?

kaptin1 wrote:Of course you do, but that doesn’t mean you choose to shoot less against the other ones.

Disagree. If a keeper has a perceived fault where he’s slow getting down to his left for example players would be more willing to shoot from distance rather than looking to work a more presentable opportunity.

Like all positions, teams will target any weakness. If that’s a centre back that lacks pace, a winger who doesn’t bother tracking back etc etc

I wish I knew why this goalkeeper was signed. Tom Heaton has been warming up all season before matches. He used to be our goalkeeper until his unfortunate injury. It doesn't make any sense.

I backed Hart until yesterday when his performance was shambolic

There was nothing wrong with Hart's positioning for the free kick goal. The player at fault was Lowton who stepped away from the wall and the ball went exactly where his head would have been.

Hart was at fault for exactly zero of yesterday's goals, but w/e, we need a scapegoat and no one wants to blame any of the proper Burnley players they've come to love and instead heap everything on the shithead non-proper Burnley player who took the position of a proper Burnley player.

What’s the difference between a proper Burnley player and a non-proper Burnley player???

Hart is not for us.

Test User wrote:There was nothing wrong with Hart's positioning for the free kick goal. The player at fault was Lowton who stepped away from the wall and the ball went exactly where his head would have been.

Hart was at fault for exactly zero of yesterday's goals, but w/e, we need a scapegoat and no one wants to blame any of the proper Burnley players they've come to love and instead heap everything on the shithead non-proper Burnley player who took the position of a proper Burnley player.

1) he should have come to collect the cross for the first

2) he positioned himself for the free kick thinking Sigurdsson was going to take it - ie a right footed player. He got it wrong.

3) he got beat from outside the area to his left hand side from distance for the 3rd goal and for the umpteenth time this season from distance into that same corner.

Test User wrote:There was nothing wrong with Hart's positioning for the free kick goal. The player at fault was Lowton who stepped away from the wall and the ball went exactly where his head would have been.

Hart was at fault for exactly zero of yesterday's goals, but w/e, we need a scapegoat and no one wants to blame any of the proper Burnley players they've come to love and instead heap everything on the shithead non-proper Burnley player who took the position of a proper Burnley player.

Ok Joe.

Rabbit in the headlights.

He’s not THE problem but he is part of the problem. Having watched him for half a season now I’d say here are his strengths and weaknesses.

Strengths:
Good at one on ones
Can make spectacular saves

Weaknesses
NEVER comes for a cross, which means our defence now has subconsciously dropped deeper. Hence why we’re conceding more long rangers, more deflected shots and more from crosses/set plays.

Is very weak down to his left
Cannot command his area
Is dodgy setting up walls (we already knew this)
How many times have we let a goal in with him just stood there? It’s because his confidence is shot, so he refuses to come and collect fearing he may make a clanger, but a lot of the times he should have come, hence his rooted to the spot stance.

I’m afraid a lot is coming true from what some of my city supporting mates said about him when we signed him.

I used to think “is our defence making our keeper look good, or the other way round?” I’m afraid Hart has answered this particular question.

Anyone who doesn’t think that one of our main problems is in goal is delusional and has been probably wowed by a few wonder saves. The best keepers make the hard saves look easy.

Get Pope back in goal if he is ready, look at West Ham last season, they dropped Hart and never looked back.

Does it matter? Scapegoat/problem?
We need the change.

Personal view is that Hart isn't making howlers, but we are conceding a lot of goals when you can make a decent argument that Hart might have done better. I made that argument after the Spurs game, and there's a consensus he might have done better with a number of the goals against Everton, and I can think of other examples too.

I'm not sure if the first Everton goal yesterday is a cross that every keeper would come for (there are actually plenty of other factors that seem to me to be more culpable) - but, whilst I accept Heaton was pretty conservative at coming for crosses, I do think he came for more than Hart (especially when he spotted that his defenders weren't going to deal with it, so he had to if he was going to be a factor in whether the goal was scored or not). But in addition, I think Heaton was generally better at getting across his line, and coming off his line to make life awkward for attackers and to make the target smaller. I'd guess if you could find a graphic showing the interception point on Hart's saves compared to Heaton or Pope, I'd guess he makes more saves closer to his goal line than either or them.

More generally though, we are conceding a lot of goals which appear to be a consequence of either disorganisation at the back - the first goal on Wednesday being a case in point, lord only knows why both Tarks and Vokes (our two most dominant headers of the ball) were at the back post for the initial corner, so that Tarks was the one going out to stop the cross from Bernard, even before we get to the fact 3 Everton players were between Gibson and Mee in the centre of the goal - or from range for which Hart is diving either not at all, or very late, so appears to have no chance, and in either case Hart appears to be giving up a lot of those shots without even making an attempt to make the save. The stats also show that we're conceding a lot more goals for the number of shots on target we are giving up (even though we're conceding a lot more shots).

At the end of the day, without being a technical expert it's hard to judge exactly what the problem is, but what we can say is that none of those three things have happened whilst either Heaton or Pope was in goal, and the only new factor is Hart, so it seems reasonable to suspect he might be part of the problem. Again, it's a personal view bassed more on gut instinct than anything else, but I think both Heaton and Pope were better keepers than Hart is right now (albeit prior to their respective injuries, which may not mean they're better options than Hart right now).

Whatever. The next line up will be interesting. We have no 'bottle' whatsoever at the moment. SD has said it WILL be sorted. Must mean Bards and Long back for one and possibly a keeper change. One thing if we dont get 4 points from the next two games we can start planning for the Championship, whatever happens - or doesnt happen (the more likely) in the transfer window.