The Brady sending off.

[thatdberight]

Just out of interest, would you trust an ex professional footballer to referee at parks level? Do you think they might understand the game more than me?

They're the last people I'd trust. They have no respect for the role. From diving to feigning injury to lieing about every throw-in, corner or goal-kick to stealing yards to pulling, pushing and rugby-tackling, they spend most of their lives cheating. It's what they do. All of them, including ours. All of them. Why would they make good refs when their whole mindset is that that's OK?

[whentheballmoves]

Personally think it's a yellow. Can see why red was given in some ways, but i think it should've been yellow. Especially when you see the others last night, for example. I think it's greater consistency that is needed...?

[Ashingtonclaret46]

Not dissimilar to the dismissal of Joe Ralls (Cardiff) against Spurs on 6 October 2017 when he lunged in from behind and was nowhere near the ball and brought Lucas Moura down. Clear red card offence in the eyes of referee Mike Dean.
Colin was ranting about it at the time and Cardiff appealed but the appeal was thrown out and he had to serve a 3 match ban.

On the Shelvey incident, I was at the game and it just looked a foul from my vantage point and it seemed strange to see the melee that ensued. It was only when I saw it on MOTD that I realised what he had done. Interestingly, Pogba did get his own back on Shelvey about five minutes later but this wasn't shown on MOTD! I was surprised that Shelvey did not get a yellow, however, Andre Marriner kept his cards in his pocket last night because there was a lot of physical contact but also the usual thing with players going down when hardly being touched in order to try to con the officials.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

I’ve no complaints over the red card but I think it would have yellow with most other referees. That’s six reds in six games for Dean.

Things have changed a lot and Mike Dean seems to be refereeing to the instruction from above. He has dismissed 9 players this season and that is the total he dismissed in the two full seasons prior to this. Players need to take a close look at themselves when he is in charge and tread warily.

[Jakubs Tash]

They're the last people I'd trust. They have no respect for the role. From diving to feigning injury to lieing about every throw-in, corner or goal-kick to stealing yards to pulling, pushing and rugby-tackling, they spend most of their lives cheating. It's what they do. All of them, including ours. All of them. Why would they make good refs when their whole mindset is that that's OK?

Bit of a generalisation, that. That would be like someone saying refs are examples of people who were last pick at school on the yard and/or bullied.

[Silkyskills1]

Good for him. Maybe a bit more crimson being flashed by the other refs would cut out a lot of the crap some players persist on displaying.

I'm not too sure that showing a plethora of red cards would 'cut out a lot of the crap' as you put it. A good referee manages a game, stamps his authority on the game without being over-officious. It's an old -fashioned phrase but a fairly accurate one when someone suggests that a good referee is hardly noticed. We had one just recently. Unfortunately they are few in number but that's a story for another day. Evening things up by a referee has been around for time immemorial; they want to finish the game with as much respect as they can muster from both camps except when certain 'elite' teams are involved and then they feel obliged to keep them as happy as possible. A red card as given to Brady would not have been given to these teams. There is an unhealthy agenda there. I suppose most referees know the rules but it's the ability to apply them sensibly that marks out the better ones. Perhaps Mike Dean has been around for too long but again there is probably a good reason for that too.

[thatdberight]

Bit of a generalisation, that. That would be like someone saying refs are examples of people who were last pick at school on the yard and/or bullied.

Do you see any players that don't persistently cheat (as opposed to some daft generalisation about refs that you made up)?

[claretspice]

This thread seems to me to reflect the problem in trying to categorise refereeing decisions as "right" or "wrong". Some are binary, like whether or not the ball has gone out of play. Most are not - they're subjective matters of opinion that have a shade of grey - some times bigger than others.

The moment you are saying "I think it's a yellow, although I can see why others think a red was fair", you are sort of saying that the decision is a legitimate one from the referee. At which point, the right to criticise the ref sort of evaporates.

Tough job refereeing, made harder by the media-fuelled game of second-guessing every decision. You will not get total consistency because all human beings see things slightly differently.

[dpinsussex]

Why should I trust you? Do you know Mike Dean?

Also, I'm not the only one saying it wasn't a red card so there is clearly a split in opinion on the challenge.

Just out of interest, would you trust an ex professional footballer to referee at parks level? Do you think they might understand the game more than me?

The trust it is bc I referee and can honestly say I couldn't care less who wins the game. I have a job to do and will do to the letter of the law. That is what has got me as far as it has to date.

Clear split of opinion (by spectators who have a slanted opinion and mostly do not know the LOTG and how to apply them) - yes.
Application of law - MD 100% correct

No I wouldn't trust an ex pro to referee at any level in till they have been through the same promotion criteria as the rest of the refereeing community. Yes they have a feel for the game, more often than not do not know the laws of the game.

[Silkyskills1]

'I couldn't care less who wins the game'

So you can honestly say any decisions you make during a game, especially marginal ones, have not been influenced by someone 'bending your ear' all afternoon, questioning every decision you make or taking gamesmanship to a new low, David?

[Jakubs Tash]

Do you see any players that don't persistently cheat (as opposed to some daft generalisation about refs that you made up)?

I know it was a daft generalisation - just like yours was. That was the point.

[Jakubs Tash]

This thread seems to me to reflect the problem in trying to categorise refereeing decisions as "right" or "wrong". Some are binary, like whether or not the ball has gone out of play. Most are not - they're subjective matters of opinion that have a shade of grey - some times bigger than others.

The moment you are saying "I think it's a yellow, although I can see why others think a red was fair", you are sort of saying that the decision is a legitimate one from the referee. At which point, the right to criticise the ref sort of evaporates.

Tough job refereeing, made harder by the media-fuelled game of second-guessing every decision. You will not get total consistency because all human beings see things slightly differently.

Exactly. Nearly everyone who didn't see it as a red have at least acknowledged why Brady gave him a decision to make. Hardly any of the people on here who think it was a definite red are seeing things very much in black and white.

[ClaretTony]

Things have changed a lot and Mike Dean seems to be refereeing to the instruction from above. He has dismissed 9 players this season and that is the total he dismissed in the two full seasons prior to this. Players need to take a close look at themselves when he is in charge and tread warily.

6 in 6 games - you know where you are with him, he yellows when other refs don't and he reds when other refs give a yellow.

[dpinsussex]

'I couldn't care less who wins the game'

So you can honestly say any decisions you make during a game, especially marginal ones, have not been influenced by someone 'bending your ear' all afternoon, questioning every decision you make or taking gamesmanship to a new low, David?

Bend my ear and my hearing becomes progressively worse.

Players try to con you. Sometimes they succeed. Rest of time they don't.

Doesn't alter the fact I couldn't care less who actually wins the game.

Reminds me of a high scoring game a year or two back, central midfielder asked me what the score was. My response was " No idea I am not counting. My AR is. " he had only minutes earlier got booked for diving in an attempt to win a pen. We had a little chuckle and from that moment stopped berating me for the rest of the game.

[Silkyskills1]

Fair enough. I still think that had Brady's challenge been in the first minute as opposed to the last minute where an opposition player had already seen red then it would have only resulted in a yellow.

[thatdberight]

I know it was a daft generalisation - just like yours was. That was the point.

I watch the match every week; I'd hope you're not hanging around playgrounds tracking the kids. All professional footballers habitually try to cheat. I can't even see that's controversial. Incontrovertible, more like

[Jakubs Tash]

I watch the match every week; I'd hope you're not hanging around playgrounds tracking the kids. All professional footballers habitually try to cheat. I can't even see that's controversial. Incontrovertible, more like

Why would I be "hanging around playgrounds tracking the kids"? What a strange comment.

[dpinsussex]

Fair enough. I still think that had Brady's challenge been in the first minute as opposed to the last minute where an opposition player had already seen red then it would have only resulted in a yellow.

Be the 1st minute or the 91st minute. You have to be absolutely sure in your own mind that the challenge is red.
Referees have all done it, myself included post game reflected on a red card and thought maybe I got that wrong. The best referees put it out of their minds quickly and get on with the next game and learn from mistakes.
It is pretty safe to say that Mike Dean will have self evaluated his performance from last night and slept well knowing that he has done his job properly. I am sure that when the DVD of the game arrives in his inbox he will review with his coach and get the same decision.

What MD can't be criticised for is what other referees Haven't done. (I haven't seen the other incidents at Newcastle etc)

[Silkyskills1]

[quote="dpinsussex"]Be the 1st minute or the 91st minute. You have to be absolutely sure in your own mind that the challenge is red.
Referees have all done it, myself included post game reflected on a red card and thought maybe I got that wrong.

Which would suggest taking some time(a few seconds) before making such a decision. Sadly, many don't and can't wait to brandish a card in a misguided way of demonstrating that they are in charge. Red cards invariably dictate the outcome of a game and also the entertainment value on show. 'Card happy' referees can kill a game.

[Garforth Claret]

Look like an unnecessary challenge and sending off live. Looked just the same on TV. The feeling seemed pretty unanimous from our support.

[dpinsussex]

Correct . Red cards are what is known as KMD's (key match decisions) Penalties being the other major one - although we never get one of those

Every referee should give themselves thinking time. You have suprisingly more than you think.
Couple of quick yellows does set out your tolerance level and one that you will find difficult to go back from. Hence the first yellow in a game is critical. If that happens in the first minute then you need to make sure it is a decision everyone is expecting.

Reviewing what Mike Dean had to put up with in those "few" seconds.
Tackle coming in from behind. Go through thought process of what has happened. Freeze frame it.
Bit of afters that might escalate. Need to make sure that doesn't get out of hand. Who is getting involved, who are peace makers.
Players in his face
AR feeding him information over the com's kit.
Spectator noise.
Isolate the player. Replay the freeze frame in your mind. Take appropriate action.

All that and the cameras are on you.

Tough job , rest assured. Hope that helps understand what a referee goes through in his/her decision making process.

[dermotdermot]

So how many games does he miss?

[Silkyskills1]

So how many games does he miss?

3 like anybody else. Some nasty challenges in the game tonight but it's imperative that players are not sent off in that one.

[Leisure]

No worse than the Kompany one a few minutes ago but Kompany wasn't sent off!

[Vegas Claret]

^^^^^^^^^^claret tinted specs

[claretnproud]

No worse than the Kompany one a few minutes ago but Kompany wasn't sent off!

tonights a far worse challenge but last nights was a definite red. Off the ground and no where near the ball. Dean got it right but tonights ref was dishonest. A clear red card.

[Silkyskills1]

He's just doing what he's been told to. Keep 11 players on each side whatever you do.

[Foulthrow]

No worse than the Kompany one a few minutes ago but Kompany wasn't sent off!

Lovren got booked for a near identical challenge to the Brady one. Never mind the Kompany one, how he wasn’t sent off! Mind you, why have they selected a ref from Manchester to ref a City game? Nuts.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

No worse than the Kompany one a few minutes ago but Kompany wasn't sent off!

That's what I thought, very inconsistent. I'm surprised Klopp didn't draw comparisons in his post-match interview.

[HiroshimaClaret]

I thought it was a silly challenge by someone who has just come back from a serious knee injury.

[Jakubs Tash]

No worse than the Kompany one a few minutes ago but Kompany wasn't sent off!

No, that can't be right. All fouls like this are 100%, definite red cards.....