VAR decision announcements

Sean Dyche's Watch · Post by **Sean Dyche's Watch** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:57 am

Are these going to be shown on the big screen, the one that most of the Longside upper can't see?

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:22 am

Suppose it will make a change from all the adverts.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:25 am

VAR decision announcement: No penalty.

Il Duce · Post by **Il Duce** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:55 pm

Same issues with VAR, takes ages to make a call. There’s no way a player should be lined up about to take a penalty (a couple of minutes after the decision) only to be told VAR has intervened and changed the decision.

Looks like it could be the right call BUT shouldn’t take as long as that.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:57 pm

He actually started his run up.

Vintage Claret · Post by **Vintage Claret** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:08 pm

I think they changed their minds when they realised it was Burnley who had been awarded the penalty not Barnsley, Burnley aren't allowed penalties

Joking aside, Vydra was probably marginally offside and it was a bit of a soft penalty but still a bit ridiculous how long it took to reach the decision with a player just starting his run up to take the spot kick.

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:12 pm

Vintage Claret wrote:I think they changed their minds when they realised it was Burnley who had been awarded the penalty not Barnsley, Burnley aren't allowed penalties

Joking aside, Vydra was probably marginally offside and it was a bit of a soft penalty but still a bit ridiculous how long it took to reach the decision with a player just starting his run up to take the spot kick.

He started his run up when the referee blew the whistle to announce the VAR decision. He thought he was blowing to allow him to take the penalty. He hadn't started his run up until then.

Vintage Claret · Post by **Vintage Claret** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:30 pm

Test User wrote:He started his run up when the referee blew the whistle to announce the VAR decision. He thought he was blowing to allow him to take the penalty. He hadn't started his run up until then.

I realise that but it was a reasonable assumption for Vydra to make and to begin his run up given the amount of time that had passed between the award of the penalty and the decision to reverse it.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:38 pm

Unless they can develop technology to work out decisions (offside, fouls in box, handballs etc.) that are looked at by another official it's going to spoil the game.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:42 pm

Unlike the lino at our end this fella kept his flag down but had probably informed the ref there was a possibility of offside.
Otherwise there was no need to review it that far back.
If they gave the offside against Vokes they were wrong, no interference, and the Vydra call was too close to overrule.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:43 pm

to be fair, the first pen was softness of Deli Ali proportions, never ever a penalty - second was a stone wall one.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:16 pm

piston broke wrote:Unlike the lino at our end this fella kept his flag down but had probably informed the ref there was a possibility of offside.
Otherwise there was no need to review it that far back.
If they gave the offside against Vokes they were wrong, no interference, and the Vydra call was too close to overrule.

The debatable one is Vokes. He ran through and took players with him. That has an effect on play, in the course of the ball crossed to Vydra.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:20 pm

The offside was given against Vydra and if on video review Vydra is even an inch off then its not debatable its clearly a wrong decision and so should be overturned.

VAR wont work cos footy fans are so biased and blinkered they will just find a way to disagree with the VAR decisions and blame the video ref or the system. Should just let the ref get on with it and accept they make mistakes

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:24 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:The offside was given against Vydra and if on video review Vydra is even an inch off then its not debatable its clearly a wrong decision and so should be overturned.

VAR wont work cos footy fans are so biased and blinkered they will just find a way to disagree with the VAR decisions and blame the video ref or the system. Should just let the ref get on with it and accept they make mistakes

As you say it'll never work properly when there is debate over the booking of Kompany and red card for Robbie Brady.

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:38 pm

> if on video review Vydra is even an inch off then its not debatable

Hardly a "clear and obvious" error.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:40 pm

Sproggy wrote:> if on video review Vydra is even an inch off then its not debatable

Hardly a "clear and obvious" error.

It is if offside

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:49 pm

At those margins the frame rate of the camera being used comes into play and the relative speed of the players involved and judgement about exactly when the pass was made becomes relevant. An inch offside is not clear and obvious.

They need an equivalent of "umpires call" for VAR.

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:07 pm

Was it Vydra that was offside because the kick was taken 2 yards outside the box!

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:10 pm

it wasn't even a foul, Vydra fell over

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:43 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:The offside was given against Vydra and if on video review Vydra is even an inch off then its not debatable its clearly a wrong decision and so should be overturned.

VAR wont work cos footy fans are so biased and blinkered they will just find a way to disagree with the VAR decisions and blame the video ref or the system. Should just let the ref get on with it and accept they make mistakes

TV can't judge an inch offside. At a standard 26 frames per second, based on a runner doing a 13 second 100m, the runner moves 11 inches between frames.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:54 pm

dsr wrote:TV can't judge an inch offside. At a standard 26 frames per second, based on a runner doing a 13 second 100m, the runner moves 11 inches between frames.

They make a decision when the ball is kicked and freeze it on that frame. If the attacker is infront of the last defender by even just an inch it is offside. If they are level or behind they are onside. The video ref has to decide one way or the othey if it is offside or not and if they decide it is offside then the original decision is deemed clearly wrong and overturned

The bit about it needing to be a clear mistake to overrule is because contact fouls are not black and white and much more opinion based and so the refs original opinion takes president unless it is wrong without doubt. For example the challenge on Vydra was not a foul however there was a coming together so the Video ref could not override for a clear mistake so it would stand. As explained above once it is decided it is offside then its a clear mistake

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:56 pm

If the game had been played at Oakwell today and the same incident occurred then Burnley would have been given the penalty and Vydra would have scored in the time that it took them to make their mind up at the Turf.
They are making the game a very uneven playing field because no one decision is more important than another. Neither is one competitive league more important than another because a manager can still lose his job on a decision made in League Two as much as one made in the PL.
No one game is more important than another and they are all governed by the same Laws of the Game.
Goal line technology is good, VAR is rubbish.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:59 pm

Sproggy wrote:At those margins the frame rate of the camera being used comes into play and the relative speed of the players involved and judgement about exactly when the pass was made becomes relevant. An inch offside is not clear and obvious.

They need an equivalent of "umpires call" for VAR.

Agree with most of this and this is why I think VAR is not a good thing. I dont even know what the rule is around what is classed as the ball being played. Is it when the ball player first comes into contact with the ball or is it when the foot and ball separate. This is irrelevant to the naked eye as in real time it all looks like the same moment. When you have to roll through it frame by frame brcause this exact point becomes crucial to the decision then we have a problem and no wonder it takes a long time to reach a decision.

The video ref has seen it frame by frame and made the call its offside and once hes done that then you have to reverse the decision

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:05 pm

It might or might not catch on and it might or might not eventually enhance the game, but one thing's for sure, it has to work better than it did today as it was absolutely ridiculous that nobody seemed aware that the first penalty was even being looked at and Vydra had definitely started his run up when the ref stepped in. That was a farce and the farce is compounded by the fact that VAR was used at some games today, but not at others. It should have been all or none imo so everyone is playing on a level field.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:00 pm

You do realise the Video ref was Lee Mason?

He would have been completely confused because none of his favourite teams or players were involved.

Walt · Post by **Walt** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:33 pm

Potentially really good.

Was crap and slow at the world cup and appears there's been no progress at all.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:47 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:They make a decision when the ball is kicked and freeze it on that frame. If the attacker is infront of the last defender by even just an inch it is offside. If they are level or behind they are onside. The video ref has to decide one way or the othey if it is offside or not and if they decide it is offside then the original decision is deemed clearly wrong and overturned

The bit about it needing to be a clear mistake to overrule is because contact fouls are not black and white and much more opinion based and so the refs original opinion takes president unless it is wrong without doubt. For example the challenge on Vydra was not a foul however there was a coming together so the Video ref could not override for a clear mistake so it would stand. As explained above once it is decided it is offside then its a clear mistake

You're still missing the point. Real life works faster than TV cameras can keep up. If the ball is kicked at say 25 minutes 1.02 seconds, but the TV pictures are taken at 25: 1.00 and 25:1.04, during which time Vydra has moved 11 inches, how do you know with certainty to the inch where Vydra was at 25: 1.02?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:50 pm

dsr wrote:You're still missing the point. Real life works faster than TV cameras can keep up. If the ball is kicked at say 25 minutes 1.02 seconds, but the TV pictures are taken at 25: 1.00 and 25:1.04, during which time Vydra has moved 11 inches, how do you know with certainty to the inch where Vydra was at 25: 1.02?

You only need to know where he is when the pass is made (assuming there is a frame that captures it). MOTD seems to show that Vydra was level anyway, which means either VAR got it wrong or they’ve given Vokes offside. Either way, seems we’ve been diddled.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:54 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:If the game had been played at Oakwell today and the same incident occurred then Burnley would have been given the penalty and Vydra would have scored in the time that it took them to make their mind up at the Turf.
They are making the game a very uneven playing field because no one decision is more important than another. Neither is one competitive league more important than another because a manager can still lose his job on a decision made in League Two as much as one made in the PL.
No one game is more important than another and they are all governed by the same Laws of the Game.
Goal line technology is good, VAR is rubbish.

Football has always been uneven though.

Also Vydra might not have scored.

THEWELLERNUT70 · Post by **THEWELLERNUT70** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:07 am

Unfortunately due to work commitments I was unable to attend today, but managed to catch the match via Sportsnet one.

At half-time the panel discussed that the offside was given against Vokes for impacting on play as that was what had been fed back to the studio. They felt that Vokes had impacted play, I know it's subjective and they mentioned that Vokes was slow to raise his arms to indicate he had no intention of going for the ball. However they agreed that Vydra was onside and the tackle in the box was indeed a foul.

MOTD to an extent backed this version of events up, with the difference being that in no way had Vokes impacted play and shouldn't have been judged offside.

The comparison to the Lukaku incident in the lead up to UTDs 1st goal was also made, where Lukaku impacts play by obstructing the Reading players attempt to win the ball. " if that was ok why was the Burnley one not"

I'll tell you why, because nothing will ever change when the view is subjective. The big teams will continue to get the benefit of any doubt where as a club outside of the elite won't.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:12 am

dsr wrote:You're still missing the point. Real life works faster than TV cameras can keep up. If the ball is kicked at say 25 minutes 1.02 seconds, but the TV pictures are taken at 25: 1.00 and 25:1.04, during which time Vydra has moved 11 inches, how do you know with certainty to the inch where Vydra was at 25: 1.02?

No I understand your point and the metaphorical inch im talking about is for the frame they choose as the frame the ball was kicked however I partially agree with you because the issue you raise is a problem with VAR.

Using your examples we have two frames either side of the ball being kicked so there are three possibilities

1 Vydra was onside in both frames and therefore no offside given
2 Vydra was offside (by as little as whatever) in both frames so offside is given
3 Vydra was onside on the first frame and offside on the second frame so it is inconclusive. In this scenario I would expect the strker to get the benefit and no offside to be given however i dont know what guidance the video refs have been given to follow.

Now we have not seen the frame by frame replay that the Video ref studied so we can only trust that he viewed it as Vydra being offside on both if there was two frames to look at or if there was a clear frame when the ball was played Vydra was offside on that one. The point I was making was that once the video ref has made that decision no matter how close a call it was then it is offside and so clearly the penalty decision is a mistake and should be overridden.

One of the problems we have which your example highlights is that without VAR someone who works as part of the TV production team just chooses a frame to stop it at with out the in depth analysis needed for a VAR decision and viewers take that as gospel

Offside decisions are a nightmare to use VAR for as you have to roll the frames backwards and forwards like they do for run out decisions in the cricket and often the difference between two frames is critical and inconclusive

The only knowledge we have today is that the video ref studied the footage frame by frame and judged it to be off and if thats the case then decision needs to be reversed. Also remember that for offsides the guidelines for VAR is for linesmen to keep there flags down and if a major decision like a goal or pen comes about we go to VAR and study the footage so in that respect it should be judged neutrally and not in favour of the original decision

Hope that clarifys my point as I dont think we are that far apart in our opinions

Edit: If what Wellernut says is true and the offside was given against Vokes then it was an awful decision but still the point that once offside is given the decision has to be reversed even if it is a cock up. This is why I am very much against VAR and believe we should leave it up to the official and except they make mistakes

THEWELLERNUT70 · Post by **THEWELLERNUT70** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:13 am

Just as an aside

I think Dyche has it right when he says if a decision is under review the ref should hold on to the ball until the final outcome has been made

nonayclaret · Post by **nonayclaret** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:29 am

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote:Just as an aside

I think Dyche has it right when he says if a decision is under review the ref should hold on to the ball until the final outcome has been made

it will come. nice to have a laugh today at the early use of var.
early cars weren't too smart

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:43 am

We had a weird episode of 'VAR' like shenanigans about 5 years ago - Milwall at home I think. Eventually the liner and ref came to the right decision but not before the kick off was about to take place. Stanislas I think to make it 2-0? Ended up two all I think.

Ric_C · Post by **Ric_C** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:50 am

: 55686900-EA6F-4D7D-9547-A9DAB5DD9EF9.jpeg (1.96 MiB) Viewed 2893 times

Ric_C · Post by **Ric_C** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:51 am

It’s not that difficult. But even with all the technology they still get it wrong

dandeclaret · Post by **dandeclaret** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:18 am

But your photo shows he is offside there Ric.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:32 am

An inch offside is still offside or in this case possibly four inches.

dandeclaret · Post by **dandeclaret** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:32 am

So looking at the picture above, it appears that they got most things right. Linesman gave the benefit of the doubt on an incredibly tight offside, ref awarded a penalty and on review they saw Vydra was offside. I think the problem is the lack of communication. If you take cricket or Rugby they are talking regularly, people can have headsets to listen to commentary or the referee, or it’s olayed on Bug Screens with the crowd watching and listening to the discussions. This has to be the way forward if they are sticking with VAR.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:34 am

An inch offside is still offside or in this case possibly four inches.

The difficulty is the ball isn't in view.

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:41 am

They should adopt the NFL - throw down a flag and then announce a VAR review

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:43 am

If we are going to the split second is it when the foot hits the ball or when the ball leaves the foot?

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:01 am

That picture with Defour and the ball in it would be useful.

Ric_C · Post by **Ric_C** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:12 am

Yeah but if you start talking about inches then it’s a clear mis-use of VAR as it was brought in for supposed clear and obvious errors.

Similar to the Utd one last season when they waited 2 minutes to say Sanchez’ toe was offside.

As another poster has said, having a referees call leeway would be a good idea. Also some kind of tannoy announcement that a review is taking place would help with confusion

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:13 pm

yesterday only served to reinforced the clear problems with VAR and how it opens up an absolute can of worms.

they shouldn't even be looking at the potential offside as

1. its not a clear or obvious error - even with the line across the pitch, it can't be confirmed that vydra is offside

2. the offside decision is separate to the penalty decision and the fact that it was looked at is where the real issue lies because how far back do you go?

if a team score from a corner but the corner should have been a goal kick, the defending team can legitimately say the goal shouldn't stand.

if a throw in is given the wrong way, taken quickly with the defending team out of position and a goal is scored, the goal shouldn't stand.

if vydra was well onside yesterday but the linesman gave him off, what happens then? we lose out.

and that's the crux of it all. every decision has an impact, whether its in the centre circle or the penalty area.

either we carry on as we are or we review every single decision to make sure they're all 100% right.

in which case, there's little point in refs and linesmen being there at all.

bodge · Post by **bodge** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:23 pm

Correct quoon, it was not a clear and obvious error.

There needs to be a definition of what constitutes the above, so all parties are aware of the parameters that are applied. This is the crux of the matter.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:29 pm

I fear this system will cause more problems than it solves and the contrast between our penalty and Utd's yesterday already throws the whole thing into disrepute.
To err is human and when the margins are so close that VAR takes more than 30 secs to resolve the issue we should let the officials' decisions stand

Goodclaret · Post by **Goodclaret** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:11 pm

Totally agree quoon - the key is in your point number 1 - I thought that was all VAR was meant for but it's clear from yesterday that they are to choose which phase to look at. There is no way the offside is clear and obvious. Even after all these look at and reviews we are talking a couple of inches. You also compare to the fact United get the decision and we don't kinda shows that the close call decisions are going to go for the "big" teams and ref's will justify them accordingly.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:31 pm

I also totally agree quoon and, at the end of the day, it is just another opinion being given by someone who is not actively involved on the field of play.
The only way to resolve this is to get rid of the onfield officials and officiate the game through a screen.This would ensure that every decision is examined and can be corrected if necessary.
Actually , NO, it isn't the only way to resolve it ---why don't we just accept the decisions of the onfield officials and get on with what used to be a smashing game. After all, it is just a game and not of world importance.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:36 pm

As long as fouls and handballs are down to someone's opinion then there will always be issues arising with any technology - and VAR will never be able to resolve that.

Likewise, when is a player interfering or not with regards to offside?